Select Page
Poker Forum
Over 1,291,000 Posts!
Poker ForumShort-Handed NL Hold'em

Trips/Top Kicker Facing Super Confuzzing Line

Results 1 to 34 of 34
  1. #1

    Default Trips/Top Kicker Facing Super Confuzzing Line

    villain here is 21/14. the stats i checked seemed to indicate that he's a tad raisy on flops, but i didn't have any specific reads on him involving those pots. obv only 6 combos beat us, but wtf is going on in this hand?!

    $0.50/$1 Ante $0.20 No Limit Holdem
    5 Players
    Hand Conversion Powered by weaktight.com

    Stacks:
    UTG bob2007 ($136.35)
    CO Hero ($260.30)
    BTN mdaley1988 ($475.80)
    SB pureprofit4 ($250)
    BB TOMBATLE ($347.90)

    Pre-Flop: ($2.50, 5 players) Hero is CO
    bob2007 raises to $3, Hero calls $3, 1 fold, pureprofit4 calls $2.50, 1 fold

    Flop: ($11, 3 players)
    pureprofit4 checks, bob2007 checks, Hero bets $8, pureprofit4 folds, bob2007 raises to $24, Hero calls $16

    Turn: ($59, 2 players)
    bob2007 bets $38, Hero ?
  2. #2
    You pretty much have the nuts here. I'd be very surprised to see AA or AK c/r the flop instead of c/c or bet out himself.

    I'd probably shove the turn.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jay-Z
    I'm a couple hands down and I'm tryin' to get back
    I gave the other grip, I lost a flip for five stacks
  3. #3
    Renton's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Posts
    8,863
    Location
    a little town called none of your goddamn business
    Quote Originally Posted by griffey24 View Post
    I'd probably shove the turn.
    why?
  4. #4
    Cause I'd imagine JTss and QJss will call a shove, and worse Kx will def b/c, whereas a spade or A river will kill our action.

    The benefit to flatting would be if a spade falls and he bluff shoves it, but I don't think a spade is an ideal card for us anyhow.

    I'm not sure how much pure air is c/r, betting turn AND shoving a brick river on this board.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jay-Z
    I'm a couple hands down and I'm tryin' to get back
    I gave the other grip, I lost a flip for five stacks
  5. #5
    Renton's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Posts
    8,863
    Location
    a little town called none of your goddamn business
    Quote Originally Posted by griffey24 View Post
    Cause I'd imagine JTss and QJss will call a shove, and worse Kx will def b/c, whereas a spade or A river will kill our action.

    The benefit to flatting would be if a spade falls and he bluff shoves it, but I don't think a spade is an ideal card for us anyhow.

    I'm not sure how much pure air is c/r, betting turn AND shoving a brick river on this board.

    we block QJss. I think that his line is so dumb that he can have bluffs and will likely go for the home run on the river. Either way, I don't think cards will really kill our action, theres too little money left to be bet.
  6. #6
    Yah I guess whenever I view about half pot left on river, I'm more inclined to just ship turns, since I think ppl's bluffing frequency gets pretty low in that scenario.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jay-Z
    I'm a couple hands down and I'm tryin' to get back
    I gave the other grip, I lost a flip for five stacks
  7. #7
    Renton's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Posts
    8,863
    Location
    a little town called none of your goddamn business
    I think this is a common situation where red-line-oriented players like yourself and I differ. Shoves like this are red-line fabulous but I don't see how shoving is otherwise beneficial.
  8. #8
    Renton's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Posts
    8,863
    Location
    a little town called none of your goddamn business
    Quote Originally Posted by griffey24 View Post
    Yah I guess whenever I view about half pot left on river, I'm more inclined to just ship turns, since I think ppl's bluffing frequency gets pretty low in that scenario.
    I would tend to agree with this statement on board textures where there are lots of semibluffs. However, we hold the Qs so there really aren't any except JT of spades.
  9. #9
    pocketfours's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Posts
    2,765
    Location
    Lighting sweet moneys on fire.
    Call and pray that the river is a spade so that you can fold this garbage.
  10. #10
    pocketfours's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Posts
    2,765
    Location
    Lighting sweet moneys on fire.
    Jamming is perfectly fine as well.
  11. #11
    Bah long post got deleted.

    It doesn't rly matter if you shove or call here, he's a nit that opened utg so he won't have many bluffs here. I'd rather reintroduce folding to the mix instead of debating shove or call.
    Nine to five is how to survive - I ain't trying to survive / I'm trying to live it to the limit and love it a lot //

    Can offer RB deals on most sites, PM me.
  12. #12
    Board: Ks Kc As
    Dead:

    equity win tie pots won pots tied
    Hand 0: 25.022% 17.60% 07.42% 1568 661.50 { KhQs }
    Hand 1: 74.978% 67.55% 07.42% 6019 661.50 { AA, AKs, KTs+, AKo }

    How often is he spazzing?
    Nine to five is how to survive - I ain't trying to survive / I'm trying to live it to the limit and love it a lot //

    Can offer RB deals on most sites, PM me.
  13. #13
    +1 to what alexos said.

    I'd either 3 bet pre as a bluff or fold as well.
  14. #14
    and yeah pre is bad, just fold.
    Nine to five is how to survive - I ain't trying to survive / I'm trying to live it to the limit and love it a lot //

    Can offer RB deals on most sites, PM me.
  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Alexos View Post
    Bah long post got deleted.

    It doesn't rly matter if you shove or call here, he's a nit that opened utg so he won't have many bluffs here. I'd rather reintroduce folding to the mix instead of debating shove or call.
    I wouldn't call 21/14 a nit. WE also don't ha any information on his positional tendencies. Some of these guys play weird, and open wider utg than they do LP.

    He also stated a tendency to raise flops, so I'd say a person like that by default is more likely to run some sort of move.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jay-Z
    I'm a couple hands down and I'm tryin' to get back
    I gave the other grip, I lost a flip for five stacks
  16. #16
    any EP stats please? AF?
    Quote Originally Posted by Jay-Z
    I'm a couple hands down and I'm tryin' to get back
    I gave the other grip, I lost a flip for five stacks
  17. #17
    Don't have access to my PT3 right now, but sample size was like 200 hands and we had no history together. He had like a 40 ATS so he's positionally aware but i'd hardly assign him an UTG range.

    I checked his stats live and he was 5/25 c/r'ing flops, but no reads on what hands and if he'd done it as the pfr.
  18. #18
    funny part, is that you should not in theory have a had that can call chraise+bet/shove from PFR like hardly ever, on this board given preflop

    however, he probably doesnt know that. And stacks are not deep enough, to go for crazy theoretical chraise+bet+shove

    honestly, i don`t mind folding somewhere by the river. Its a good spot for him to check AK/AA on the board to give opponents to catch up at least with something, as he has it locked down (and its hard for you two too give him any action, when he blocks out so many combos that can call a cbet on this board)

    Also there are just not too many weaker Kx combos, in his UTG PFR range (and he will not play them all 100% time this way, anyways, he`ll bet-bet-bet a lot % time trying to get value from Ax)
    Us having Qs also blocks many semibluff spazes (which he`ll cbet the flop most % time if he wanted to continue most % time anyways)
  19. #19
    I'd call turn as played, I think there is a lot of merit to 3betting flop.
    Check out the new blog!!!
  20. #20
    Lukie's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Posts
    10,758
    Location
    Never read any stickies or announcements
    call turn for sure, even moreso when taking balance issues into consideration.
  21. #21
    Lukie's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Posts
    10,758
    Location
    Never read any stickies or announcements
    Quote Originally Posted by Alexos View Post
    and yeah pre is bad, just fold.
    i don't agree
  22. #22
    Folding pre seems extremely nitty in a game with 20% antes.
  23. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by mcatdog View Post
    Folding pre seems extremely nitty in a game with 20% antes.
    210,613,392 games 0.235 secs 896,227,200 games/sec

    Board:
    Dead:

    equity win tie pots won pots tied
    Hand 0: 60.524% 56.57% 03.95% 119143660 8327110.50 { 77+, A9s+, KTs+, QTs+, ATo+, KQo }
    Hand 1: 39.476% 35.52% 03.95% 74815511 8327110.50 { KcQs }


    I assigned him the top 10% of hands here, and we ain't doin so well with all kinds of reverse implied odds going down.

    And when you take out some of these hands he may not open, like ATo and QTs, and put in SCs instead, we're still doing shite.

    Fold pre imo.
  24. #24
    Renton's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Posts
    8,863
    Location
    a little town called none of your goddamn business
    Pre is a call, if marginally so.

    Unclesteve, preflop all in equities tend lack relevance to situations other than when deciding whether to play a hand for all in preflop.
  25. #25
    Any merit to this line?

    $0.50/$1 Ante $0.20 No Limit Holdem
    5 Players
    Hand Conversion Powered by weaktight.com

    Stacks:
    UTG bob2007 ($136.35)
    CO Hero ($260.30)
    BTN mdaley1988 ($475.80)
    SB pureprofit4 ($250)
    BB TOMBATLE ($347.90)

    Pre-Flop: ($2.50, 5 players) Hero is CO
    bob2007 raises to $3, Hero calls $3, 1 fold, pureprofit4 calls $2.50, 1 fold

    Flop: ($11, 3 players)
    pureprofit4 checks, bob2007 checks, Hero bets $8, pureprofit4 folds, bob2007 raises to $24, Hero calls $16

    Turn: ($59, 2 players)
    bob2007 bets $38, Hero calls $38

    River: ($135, 2 players)
    bob2007 goes all-in $71.15, Hero folds

    Final Pot: $206.15

    bob2007 wins $204.15 (net +$67.80)

    pureprofit4 lost $3.20
    Hero lost $65.20
  26. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by mcatdog View Post
    Folding pre seems extremely nitty in a game with 20% antes.
    Didn't realise there were antes, but your statement is way too general. We're playing vs a positionally aware 20/14 player..
    Nine to five is how to survive - I ain't trying to survive / I'm trying to live it to the limit and love it a lot //

    Can offer RB deals on most sites, PM me.
  27. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by Renton View Post
    Pre is a call, if marginally so.

    Unclesteve, preflop all in equities tend lack relevance to situations other than when deciding whether to play a hand for all in preflop.
    hhmmm- that's an interesting point, care to expand on it a little?
  28. #28
    I mean, for the most part I'd say we beat a bluff and some worse Kx.

    I don't think he plays that many FD's this way.

    So given that.. I'd say most of the range that we were beating, we're still beating on the river, as he'd prob still jam Kx for half pot on riv and will prob also jam his bluffs.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jay-Z
    I'm a couple hands down and I'm tryin' to get back
    I gave the other grip, I lost a flip for five stacks
  29. #29
    Eh river is close but I think fold is fine. I don't think its too out of the question that he plays a flush draw this way. If he took a lot of time on the river and then shoved id probably call.
    Check out the new blog!!!
  30. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by unclesteve View Post
    hhmmm- that's an interesting point, care to expand on it a little?
    With deep stacks, postflop hand playability, skill advantage, and positional advantage are often much more important than preflop equities. Reverse implied odds are also less of a factor if we don't suck postflop. preflop equities become a lot more important with much shallower stacks, or if you're building a low flop SPR with preflop aggression.

    I think pre is fine unless we expect a lot of squeezing, which we shouldn't usually with the UTG opener.
  31. #31
    this is an obvious call down, u can fold the river if u have a massive sample and are completely sure he has the nuts and is dumb to play it like this. never 3bet flop, never jam turn ever.
    I got more flava than fruitstripe gum
  32. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by IowaSkinsFan View Post
    Eh river is close but I think fold is fine. I don't think its too out of the question that he plays a flush draw this way. If he took a lot of time on the river and then shoved id probably call.

    The fd hit, although I kinda doubt he has one. He basically is repping two hands.
  33. #33
    i mean here's the thing. sometimes in poker when he can rep every nut hand and you hold the best hand you are likely to ever hold, you gotta click cawl and hope he has A4s or whatever. sucks
    I got more flava than fruitstripe gum
  34. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by d0zer View Post
    With deep stacks, postflop hand playability, skill advantage, and positional advantage are often much more important than preflop equities. Reverse implied odds are also less of a factor if we don't suck postflop. preflop equities become a lot more important with much shallower stacks, or if you're building a low flop SPR with preflop aggression.

    I think pre is fine unless we expect a lot of squeezing, which we shouldn't usually with the UTG opener.
    makes sense, ty

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •