AQ Flopped Q high

[ManchesterUnited]

I tried to play higher limits in order to recover from my downswing but lady luck wasn't on my side

PokerStars, $0.25/$0.50 No Limit Hold'em Cash, 6 Players

CO: $50 (100 bb)
BTN: $38.57 (77.1 bb)
SB: $29.52 (59 bb)
BB: $51.79 (103.6 bb)
UTG: $179.24 (358.5 bb)
Hero (MP): $50 (100 bb)

Preflop: Hero is MP with Q A
UTG folds, Hero raises to $1.50, CO folds, BTN calls $1.50, SB calls $1.25, BB folds

Flop: ($5) 4 4 Q (3 players)
SB checks, Hero bets $3.50, BTN folds, SB calls $3.50

Turn: ($12) 2 (2 players)
SB checks, Hero bets $7.50, SB calls $7.50

River: ($27) 6 (2 players)
SB checks, Hero bets $25, SB calls $17.02 and is all-in

I had seen the villain playing very aggressively with KQo flopping Q high in a previous hand

Villain showed Q 6

[Savy]

Chasing loses is awful and has nothing to do with luck if you're a losing player you will lose playing higher just makes you a bigger loser so you're likely to lose more in terms of bb and $$$.

As played seems fine, not a huge amount of 4x unlikely to x/c 22 and calling two streets with 66 is a bit thin, KK+ all going to be squeezing. I'm just struggling to find hands we get value from so checking the turn might be better because that card helps neither of your ranges the board is very dry and an Ace is card which he can bluff which is good for us whilst also making him more likely to call another bet with his mid PP. It also stops our checking range being weak as hell although might be better if we had As or Ad as we don't block his A4s hands.

[ManchesterUnited]

Come on Savy, villain played awful and was lucky on the river

[Savy]

Why are you editing in the result and then making out like that matters in the slightest?

Also see

As played seems fine

[OngBonga]

Ok it's pretty clear you shouldn't be playing 50nl because you haven't posted any villain stats. You're at these levels without a HUD? You might as well be wiping your arse with dollar bills. I suggest you step back down before you go broke. If you choose to ignore that simple advise, well good luck to you sir.

[The Bean Counter]

Ok it's pretty clear you shouldn't be playing 50nl because you haven't posted any villain stats. You're at these levels without a HUD? You might as well be wiping your arse with dollar bills. I suggest you step back down before you go broke. If you choose to ignore that simple advise, well good luck to you sir.

Meh, huds are over-rated for the majority of players imo, as most people just don't know how to use them and over-adjust (and I include myself in that). My win-rate has been miles higher without a hud in the past, probably because I concentrate harder and don't look to find one stat that justifies making a donk play.

But yeah, don't chase losses op and keep the beats away from the forum unless you ask some questions about your play during the post.

[OngBonga]

I wouldn't dream of playing 25nl and up without a HUD, even if it's simply for the vpip/pfr stats. At the very least I would relentlessly be making notes. I see no indication that OP is ready for 50nl. He doesn't play this hand badly, but the lack of any reads on villain suggests strongly that hero is blindly taking on these levels, and that is inevitably going to end badly unless he runs like a god.

[ManchesterUnited]

I think I'll go down to 10NL

[OngBonga]

You should be at 2nl dude. You rarely post any reads, and when you do they're vague. You're clearly not using a HUD, which is ok if you're making relentless notes, which you're obviously not doing. My guess is this is an expensive poker lesson.

[STILL_mkd]

This kind of loses always hurt. You played this hand good, only you didn't have luck. I have only one criticism to you about the value of your bet on the river. I think that you didn't have to bet so much, maybe it would be better if you only made a bet like on the turn, to about $7.50/$8. He called all your bets, so it was more than sure that he had some pairs, so for that reason you didn't have to make big bet on the river.

[OngBonga]

I like hero's river sizing. What does villain have in his range that we lose to? What does he have that we beat and that calls this river bet? Does he have more combos of worse hands than better hands? I think villain is left with Qx and 4x, and he has Qx way more often. We have a very strong hand here. There's 8 combos of KQ, 2 of QJs and 2 of QTs. That's 12 combos we get value from. He has 2 combos of Q6s and 2 of A4s, along with the one combo of 44. We can throw in 2 combos each of 34s 45s and we're still in good shape vs his range. That's before we start adding in worse Qx than QTs. River bet is good imo, we just got unlucky in that villain has one of the few hands beating us.

[chemist]

Onga is the boss of this thread,
some polite sage advice, even in post #9.

HUDS suck, but the other cheats are using them, so you have to be able to cheat in the same way as well to survive at those levels online.

[griffey24]

As hard as it is, disregard the result. The only important aspect of this result is extrapolating all the other hands he shows up with here if he shows up with Q6s.

Hand was played well ofcourse.

[Keith]

HUDS suck, but the other cheats are using them, so you have to be able to cheat in the same way as well to survive at those levels online.

I object to this statement on several levels. Firstly if HUDs suck so much why are so many people using them? Since i use a HUD as do many others at FTR you are calling us cheats. I object to that especially after all the stuff i've done to track down and expose people and rooms that are cheating the other players. HUDs are just a productivity tool allowing people to play more tables. As such they allow players to play more hands and generate more rake and are available for everyone to use. A losing player using a HUD will still be a losing player. The HUD won't alter his decision making.
Anyone wanting to avoid playing against people using HUDs can easily do so by playing on sites with anonymous tables. change tables often and nobody will be able to build up a reliable sample size on you to base any decisions on and many networks ask that tracking software is not implemented on the anonymous tables which HM and PT observe.
If a poker site states that it is their policy that players not use a HUD then i agree that on those tables that that policy is inforce on could be considered to be cheating since most players will observe the no HUD use policy.

[chemist]

There will always be a debate about HUDs
Like Scottish Independence or Fox Hunting there are supporters for each side.

Was the Fox hurt less or were the Hunters less cruel when it was legal?
Previously some people didn't like having to accept others could go fox hunting, now some people don't like having to accept they can no longer enjoy their traditional sport. (btw I couldn't give a toss either way).
That is just an example of the temporary nature of rules and laws, and rights and wrongs. (I could equally have used The Inquisition, 1940s german laws, or 1940s english law and gay marriage as examples of changing legal and moral standpoints).
The point is that what's allowed or enforced at some point in time isn't always right.

The poker sites have made their rules and exceptions for their own reasons which we have to tolerate, but it doesn't mean it will always be right or that we have to agree with it or like it, we merely have to begrudgingly accept the current position.

But I do have a strong opinion about being forced to compete with or else pay to learn and use something I don't agree with.
~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~

Firstly if HUDs suck so much why are so many people using them?
as mentioned 'the others are using them, so you have to (use them and) be able (have the ability) to use them in the same way .. to survive at those levels online.
secondly because many believe they can gain an advantage by using them.

Computer assistance tools are not allowed but most sites make an exception for HM and PT. Why?
Because it is a tool allowing people to play more tables. As such they allow players to play more hands and generate more rake.

- are available for everyone to use. (This is such a poor excuse on so many levels);
They are not built in to the client, they have to be bought at costs prohibitive to micro players, and have to be known about, some people are still not aware of their existence, in particular beginners will probably not be aware.
Any other tools could also be bought or acquired for free and thus be available to everyone.

They are also pushing their boundaries by now adding automated computer generated notes on players and even timing tells.
(addon, additional cost modules may apply). How far can the rules be bent?

HUDs and trackers are a (un)necessary evil.


~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
In this case I guess we are on opposite sides of the debate,
but I should have quoted 'cheats' as it wasn't meant in a literal sense.

I appreciate the stuff you did to expose people, though I was disappointed at the time that pokerstars didn't recognise that it wasn't just you that was materially disadvantaged, but that the whole game had been compromised and all the players disadvantaged. And that some of us had been disadvantaged by that group on several previous occasions. But probably should have got of my backside and submitted a complaint myself after you had exposed them. At least thanks to your efforts we won't be compromised by them in the future. I wouldn't be so crass as to point out that the ringleader was a staunch supporter of the pro HUD side of the debate in a shameless attempt to discredit its supporters, nor contrarily admit a begrudging respect for Keith on topics other than this debate.

[daven]

HUDS suck, but the other cheats are using them, so you have to be able to cheat in the same way as well to survive at those levels online.

no. just no. Are you calling us all cheats now?
ban imo

[OngBonga]

Are those who have a much better memory than me cheating? What about those using mathematics more effectively than myself? Isn't maths giving them an unfair advantage? I demand to be on a level playing field. That means no HUD, no memory, no maths. If everyone just went all in pre flop at the first opportunity, then the games would be 100% fair.

[OngBonga]

Also, bluffing is cheating.

[OngBonga]

Is someone who is an expert at reading body language cheating?

[spoonitnow]

You forgot check/raising.

[Keith]

There will always be a debate about HUDs


The poker sites have made their rules and exceptions for their own reasons which we have to tolerate, but it doesn't mean it will always be right or that we have to agree with it or like it, we merely have to begrudgingly accept the current position.

But I do have a strong opinion about being forced to compete with or else pay to learn and use something I don't agree with.

thats where your argument falls down. You are not forced to play with people using a HUD. You can play on sites with anonymous tables where the use of HUDs is banned and HEM /PT obey the sites wishes and make it so that their HUD doesn't work on those tables or play on sites that HEM/PT don't support examples being SKY , hive network, chico network.
Secondly , you don't have to fork out a prohibitive cost to purchase the HUD software. Both of the main HUD suppliers have a get it free option where you sign up at a room through them and their referral bonus pays for the software and you get 2months free use to clear any play through and complete the purchase.

Firstly if HUDs suck so much why are so many people using them?
as mentioned 'the others are using them, so you have to (use them and) be able (have the ability) to use them in the same way .. to survive at those levels online.
secondly because many believe they can gain an advantage by using them.

Again a crap argument to make. HUDs let you play more tables and by definition playing more tables means you are paying less attention so you can actually play worse if you play too many tables using a HUD. If you refuse to use a HUD and play less tables you can have an edge on the tables that you do play. your overall win rate in $/hour may be lower though than the HUD user playing more tables.

Computer assistance tools are not allowed but most sites make an exception for HM and PT. Why?

What is banned is software that tells you what to do or does the action for you. HUDs just give you data and then you still have to decide what to do

Because it is a tool allowing people to play more tables. As such they allow players to play more hands and generate more rake.

- are available for everyone to use. (This is such a poor excuse on so many levels);
They are not built in to the client, they have to be bought at costs prohibitive to micro players, and have to be known about, some people are still not aware of their existence, in particular beginners will probably not be aware.
Any other tools could also be bought or acquired for free and thus be available to everyone.

They are also pushing their boundaries by now adding automated computer generated notes on players and even timing tells.
(addon, additional cost modules may apply). How far can the rules be bent?

HUDs and trackers are a (un)necessary evil.

HUDs can be got free via a room signup so your first point doesn't apply
some rooms (not sure if it was merge or revolution) had an option for their users to use a customised version of HEM
beginners are unlikely to benefit from a HUD as they allow more tables to be played which is the last thing that beginners should be doing.

you haven't given a single valid reason why they should be banned.

[spoonitnow]

The effective banning HUDs will never happen. There are HUDs that are undetectable for the sites that "ban" them, and I know because I have worked on them for fun (though I've never used them in real money games). When you ban something that you can't really prevent happening, then you only hurt the players who play by the rules.

[OngBonga]

When you ban something that you can't really prevent happening, then you only hurt the players who play by the rules.

Yup. I won't play on sites where HUDs are banned because I don't have confidence that the sites are capable of detecting every HUD out there, which would mean I'd be being fucked up the arse by those who use undetected HUDs. Those people I would say are cheating, because they are ignoring the rules that other people are obeying in order to gain an advantage.