**** Elections thread *****

[Poopadoop]

I'm not saying he couldn't win, I'm just saying he's not exactly roflstomping anyone in terms of popularity. I think he's going to have a hard time winning unless someone seriously bad is put up against him. 23% might be enough to win 'in theory', but it's never happened.

[Poopadoop]

Historical popularity of presidents
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United...pproval_rating

What's interesting here to me is that his approval barely changes no matter what happens. It suggests the population is highly polarised between people who will never support him no matter what and people who will always support him no matter what.

The task for the Ds is to get the former people out to vote.

[oskar]

The fact that you can't find anyone on the dems side right now who you think is more electable than Trump explains perfectly why he won. Until you find someone more despicably racist than Trump, Trump will be your guy.

[oskar]

Trump won because the dems gave up on the middle class. If you think it's anything else you're a retard.

How did that win him the republican primary?

What is your theory as to why his approval rating among blacks and hispanics is so low?

[oskar]

Why are blacks and hispanics disproportionately affected by media bias and myself?

[oskar]

Why would these stories push people to vote democrat over republican?

[oskar]

Seems kinda weird that just this small demographic would blindly believe things the msm tells them without any critical thinking, whereas the white demographic seems to be a lot more able to do critical thinking. Why do you think that is?

[oskar]

Whose message is what here and can you give me an example?

[OngBonga]

*your

Jesus wept, get your grammar right while discussing your high IQ.

[OngBonga]

at least I don't have AIDS

Define "AIDS".

[OngBonga]

If it's something I have and you don't, I assume it's related to grammar.

[OngBonga]

So... poop... you still think we should have another referendum?

EU election votes coming in... at the moment the Brexit Party led by Nigel Farage has a whopping 31% of the vote. In case that doesn't sound like a lot, UKIP, led by Farage, won the last one in 2014 with 27%.

This is the people demanding once again we leave the EU. The remainers make all the noise on social media and in the press, but it's Brexiteers who make the noise when it comes to elections. Is it obvious to you yet that we, as a nation, want to fucking leave NOW?

[OngBonga]

Change have got 3% so far. That's just beautiful.

Worst name ever for a political party. I'm glad the voters are seeing those people for the frauds they are.

[Poopadoop]

so far.

Dude, there's like 3 seats declared right now. One of the two Brexit took they got from UKIP lol. Take a nap.

You're like those guys on TYT who saw Hillary win New York and thought she had POTUS all sewn up.

[OngBonga]

Well, anything over 27% is a very strong message. You do recognise that much, yes? I mean, UKIP got 27% and then we voted to leave the EU in a referendum. So if Nige increases his vote share with a completely new party, what does that tell you?

The Brexit party are going to win this at a canter.

[Poopadoop]

Is it obvious to you yet that we, as a nation, want to fucking leave NOW?

lol who is 'we'? Remainers are up to 44% against 40% who want to fucking leave arrrarghgghggh! in the latest poll on Brexit.

https://whatukthinks.org/eu/question...ld-you-vote-2/

[Poopadoop]

The Brexit party are going to win this at a canter.

If everyone who wants Brexit votes for the same party, and the leaver's votes are split between different parties, that doesn't mean the idea of Brexit has suddenly gone way up in popularity.

[OngBonga]

Did you miss the point entirely about UKIP getting 27% just before we voted to leave in a referendum?

[OngBonga]

lol who is 'we'? Remainers are up to 44% against 40% who want to fucking leave arrrarghgghggh! in the latest poll on Brexit.

https://whatukthinks.org/eu/question...ld-you-vote-2/

Why are you pointing to a dumb poll when election results are coming in? Polls do not matter. Elections do.

[Poopadoop]

Did you miss the point entirely about UKIP getting 27% just before we voted to leave in a referendum?

There is no point.

You want to make it out that votes for whatever party Farage is in charge of are a perfect index of the popularity of Brexit. Obviously that wasn't true before 2016, or you would have lost the referendum. So if it wasn't a perfect index then, it isn't one now either.

[OngBonga]

Yes you missed the point. I guess it's beyond your intellect.

[Poopadoop]

Why are you pointing to a dumb poll when election results are coming in? Polls do not matter. Elections do.

Party A supports Brexit. They get 40% of the vote.
Party B supports Remain. They get 35% of the vote.
Party C also supports Remain. They get 25% of the vote.

Which is more popular, Brexit or Remain?

[Poopadoop]

By your logic, Brexit is more popular because Party A got the most votes of any party.

[OngBonga]

It's not a perfect index or whatever. It wasn't then and it isn't now. That said, if Farage increases his vote count, I don't see how that can be interpreted any other way. There is a greater appetite to leave the EU now than there was when we actually voted to leave.

[OngBonga]

Party A supports Brexit. They get 40% of the vote.
Party B supports Remain. They get 35% of the vote.
Party C also supports Remain. They get 25% of the vote.

Which is more popular, Brexit or Remain?

Is this what you think is happening? My word.

[Poopadoop]

I guess it's beyond your intellect.

lol blow me.

[Poopadoop]

It's not a perfect index or whatever. It wasn't then and it isn't now. That said, if Farage increases his vote count, I don't see how that can be interpreted any other way. There is a greater appetite to leave the EU now than there was when we actually voted to leave.

What is happening is both Labour and Cons are going to lose big because of the shitshow that Brexit has been up to now.

If LibDems (who are unequivocally Remain) go up by the same or more than Farage how are you going to interpret that?

I'll give you a clue: It means Remainers switched their vote from Labour to LibDems.

Same thing is happening with this Brexit party. They're getting votes from all the old UKIP supporters and adding to that some people who've become disillusioned with the Cons.

It's not a massive increase in support for Brexit, as much as you'd like to believe that. Sorry.

[OngBonga]

What is happening is both Labour and Cons are going to lose big because of the shitshow that Brexit has been up to now.

Yup.

If LibDems (who are unequivocally Remain) go up by the same or more than Farage how are you going to interpret that?

Lib Dems are gaining remain votes off Labour and Tories.

I'll give you a clue: It means Remainers switched their vote from Labour to LibDems.

Right, so you are aware that they aren't magically getting new remainer votes. The Libs will need more than a 5% increase, they'll need that 5% plus whatever the Tories and Labour lose. Then I'll take notice.

Same thing is happening with this Brexit party. They're getting votes from all the old UKIP supporters and adding to that some people who've become disillusioned with the Cons.

You can safely assume that ALL of the votes for both UKIP and Brexit are pro-Brexit voters. That is not the case for Labour and Tory.

The leave vote is increasing, but the remain vote is not.

It's not a massive increase in support for Brexit, as much as you'd like to believe that. Sorry

It's not a "massive" increase, but it is an increase. Does that not tell you something?

[Poopadoop]

You can safely assume that ALL of the votes for Lib Dems are pro-Remain voters. That is not the case for Labour and Tory.

The Remain vote is increasing, but so is the Leave vote.

fyp

I love how asymmetrical your logic is, btw. That's some real creative accounting you're trying to do there to convince yourself your side is 'winning'.

[OngBonga]

Let's continue this discussion tomorrow.

FYI, turnout is down from 2014. So I'm not sure how both leave and remain parties can increase their votes.

[Poopadoop]

FYI, turnout is down from 2014. So I'm not sure how both leave and remain parties can increase their votes.

% change in support for each party is the number that counts most, right? Though I suppose it's interesting that a greater % of people don't give a shit anymore. I can certainly see why they would feel that way after the last few months' clusterfuck.

[OngBonga]

So far the Brexit Party have an equal share as Lib Dems + Greens at 32%. But that's ignoring UKIP.

It's near impossible to say if Tory and Labour voters are leaning leave or remain, so I'm ignoring those two. I'm inclined to think that Labour will be slightly more pro-remain, while Tory will be slightly more pro-leave. But I really have no idea.

[OngBonga]

Though I suppose it's interesting that a greater % of people don't give a shit anymore. I can certainly see why they would feel that way after the last few months' clusterfuck.

There's a lot of spoiled ballots. My inclination is to assume they are pro-leavers, I can't see remainers showing such contempt for the EU elections, but that just my hunch.

[OngBonga]

Here's an interesting thing to consider... if you think we should have another referendum for the EU, then surely you think the Scottish should have another independence vote? If Scotland leave the UK, how do you think that will impact the EU debate in the rest of the UK?

[OngBonga]

Nige picked up nearly a million votes in Southampton. He's booked his seat. I bet the EU can't wait to see him back in Brussels.

[OngBonga]

Dude, there's like 3 seats declared right now. One of the two Brexit took they got from UKIP lol. Take a nap.

You're like those guys on TYT who saw Hillary win New York and thought she had POTUS all sewn up.

This aged well.

[OngBonga]

One more thing to consider...

What do you think is worse? Leaving the EU? Or staying and then us having a general election in which the Brexit Party wins?

Because that looks like it could actually happen. There are certainly enough leave voters in this country to make it happen, even more so if the remain vote is split.

I'm not sure I'd want the Brexit Party to actually govern, but if push comes to shove, I'll vote for him. I'd rather we just leave the EU so I don't have to, though.

[OngBonga]

Haha the "Animal Welfare Party" got more votes than the "Women's Equality Party".

That was a fantastic night. Brexit is going to happen on 31st October. Brexit's vote is a fraction under Libs+Greens, just under 1%. On the surface, that looks good for remain. But it's not.

The Brexit voters are people who prefer "no deal" to "remain". A lot of leavers want a deal, and these voters are not the ones abandoning the Tories and Labour.

In 2014, UKIP got 4.4m, and there was another 200k for a small anti-EU party, so 4.6m voters made their intentions clear in 2014. We then subsequently voted in a referendum to leave the EU.

This time, Brexit + UKIP got about 5.8 million votes. Pro-leave has picked up 1.2 million votes from 2014.

It's clear to me that there is increased appetite for us to leave. That doesn't even surprise me. I never believed the rubbish about people having "changed their mind". If we have another referendum, leave will win by an even greater margin.

But we still shouldn't have one. It's pure insanity to keep voting on this issue, especially when pro-leave parties are increasing their vote share by more than a fucking million votes.

[Poopadoop]

The Brexit voters are people who prefer "no deal" to "remain".

I agree.

A lot of leavers want a deal, and these voters are not the ones abandoning the Tories and Labour.

Pure speculation.

In 2014, UKIP got 4.4m, and there was another 200k for a small anti-EU party, so 4.6m voters made their intentions clear in 2014. We then subsequently voted in a referendum to leave the EU.

This time, Brexit + UKIP got about 5.8 million votes. Pro-leave has picked up 1.2 million votes from 2014.

It's fun interpreting of numbers the way you see fit. How many Tory voters in 2014 voted Leave in 2016? And of those, how many are now voting Brexit Party in 2019?

It's clear to me that there is increased appetite for us to leave.

crytsal ball.jpg

That doesn't even surprise me. I never believed the rubbish about people having "changed their mind".

That's how confirmation bias works, yup. You're never surprised.

If we have another referendum, leave will win by an even greater margin.

crystal ball.jpg

But we still shouldn't have one. It's pure insanity to keep voting on this issue, especially when pro-leave parties are increasing their vote share by more than a fucking million votes.

Hypothetically speaking, if there is one and your side lost, would you then accept the result?

[Poopadoop]

If it gets to the point where the only way Brexit happens is for Farage to become PM and do a no-deal pullout, that would work best as far as it goes because it'd likely be such a disaster for the economy that Brexit as an idea would die a quick and painful death.

I have to admit I'd take a certain guilty pleasure in watching that happen. Not enough that I want to lose £1k a year in earnings to witness it, but at least it would be something.

If there was a no-deal I, like many academics, would start looking for jobs outside the UK.

[OngBonga]

Pure speculation.

Both Labour and the Tories have said they want a deal. You have to understand that Nigel isn't everyone's cup of tea. If you want to leave, but don't want to give your support to Farage,who do you vote for? UKIP is out of the question, I would hope that much is obvious to you.

It's more speculative when it comes to Labour, since they are incoherent with regards Brexit. But the Tories, Farage is a Conservative in terms of his political lean, He was a member of the Conservatives until 1992, when we signed the Maastricht Treaty.

It's fun interpreting of numbers the way you see fit. How many Tory voters in 2014 voted Leave in 2016? And of those, how many are now voting Brexit Party in 2019?

I can't tell you that, there are no figures to be able to determine this with any accuracy. All we can do is speculate.

It's clear to me that there is increased appetite for us to leave.

*crystal ball image*

Pro-leave have 1.2 million more votes than just before we voted to leave. How else do you expect me to interpret that? How do you interpret that?

That's how confirmation bias works, yup. You're never surprised.

I was surprised when we voted to leave.

If we have another referendum, leave will win by an even greater margin.

*crystal ball image*

Pro-leave have 1.2 million more votes than just before we voted to leave. How else do you expect me to interpret that? How do you interpret that?

Hypothetically speaking, if there is one and your side lost, would you then accept the result?

I'm not sure. If turnout was as high as the first referendum, it would be hard to ignore. But it would create a massive political shitstorm that would result in the Brexit Party becoming a serious contender for government. What happens then? If Farage is Prime Minister, he'll take us out without a referendum. He will campaign under that promise. So I'd vote for him.

Hypothetically speaking, if there was another referendum, and we voted to remain, and then Farage then won an election with the promise to take us out, and he then took us out, would you accept it?

If it gets to the point where the only way Brexit happens is for Farage to become PM and do a no-deal pullout, that would work best as far as it goes because it'd likely be such a disaster for the economy that Brexit as an idea would die a quick and painful death.

It's amusing that you mock my "pure speculation" and then you say this.

Not enough that I want to lose £1k a year in earnings to witness it...

Oh yeah, I forgot this is about you, and not about the UK.

[OngBonga]

You're like that woman who cries "who's going to serve our coffee at Pret-a-Manger?"

[OngBonga]

Why would you lose £1k a year? Where does that claim come from? Have your employers warned you that you'll get a pay cut if we leave without a deal? Or are you anticipating living costs going up by £1k a year, with your salary remaining static?

What imports are essential to your survival?

[Poopadoop]

Pro-leave have 1.2 million more votes than just before we voted to leave. How else do you expect me to interpret that?

You're asking me how you should interpret your interpretation. Is there some meta-interpretation that I'm not aware of here?

OK I expect you to interpret your interpretation as accurate.

How do you interpret that?

I already told you; I interpret it as creative accounting.

I was surprised when we voted to leave.

But you haven't wavered in your idea that Brexit is supported by the majority since then. You've discounted any and all the evidence to the contrary and have looked for evidence to confirm it. That's the definition of confirmation bias.

Pro-leave have 1.2 million more votes than just before we voted to leave. How else do you expect me to interpret that? How do you interpret that?

You expect different answers if you ask the same questions again?

Hypothetically speaking, if there was another referendum, and we voted to remain, and then Farage then won an election with the promise to take us out, and he then took us out, would you accept it?

As opposed to what? Leading a revolution?

Oh yeah, I forgot this is about you, and not about the UK.

Yeah, I care more about myself than some people I've never met who I don't agree with. How strange.

[Poopadoop]

You're like that woman who cries "who's going to serve our coffee at Pret-a-Manger?"

Never met this lady, and never been to that place. So not sure what you're talking about here.

[Poopadoop]

Why would you lose £1k a year? Where does that claim come from?

Trade. Tariffs raise prices. If I have to pay 20% more for a bag of tomatoes, that cuts into my spending money.

Or are you anticipating living costs going up by £1k a year, with your salary remaining static?

Exactly.

What imports are essential to your survival?

Food for one.

I mean, come on don't be a retard.

[Poopadoop]

Here's something else for you to not believe.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/b...-a8854726.html

[Poopadoop]

44% of our exports go to the EU as of now. How do you think that number will change with a no-deal Brexit?

Oh, I know. "We'll just sell them somewhere else. Where? They all have tariffs too? Oh I dunno, someone else must want to buy our shit. Er ok, maybe we'll just make less shit. Oh that costs jobs? Oh geez hadn't thought of that. Is that bad?"

[OngBonga]

I already told you; I interpret it as creative accounting.

An increase in 1.2 million votes is creative accounting? Ok.

But you haven't wavered in your idea that Brexit is supported by the majority since then.

I actually think it's irrelevant. If I decide today that I want to remain, tough luck. I voted to leave, I made my decision. But I also don't believe that the tide has turned, and last night's results have only strengthened that belief.

You've discounted any and all the evidence to the contrary

There is none. And no, opinion polls are not evidence. That was demonstrated quite effectively when we voted to leave, and when trump won the presidency.

and have looked for evidence to confirm it.

No I haven't, at least not until last night. This is an assumption you've made.

You expect different answers if you ask the same questions again?

You expect different responses when you post the same image twice?

As opposed to what? Leading a revolution?

Funny. You asked me virtually the same question. Were you expecting me to say I intended to lead a revolution?

Yeah, I care more about myself than some people I've never met who I don't agree with. How strange.

"some people"

As in 66.04 million minus one.

Food for one.

Do you think we don't make food?

Here's something else for you to not believe.

£66 fucking billion? Of course I don't believe it.

The falling pound is having a positive impact for companies that export, and for retailers who trade in tourist hotspots. It's also good for British holiday resorts, since less people will go abroad.

Also, Brexit hasn't cost anything yet, because it hasn't happened. Brexit uncertainty is the problem, which is precisely the reason we can't vote on this over and over, like an election.

[OngBonga]

44% of our exports go to the EU as of now. How do you think that number will change with a no-deal Brexit?

Oh, I know. "We'll just sell them somewhere else. Where? They all have tariffs too? Oh I dunno, someone else must want to buy our shit. Er ok, maybe we'll just make less shit. Oh that costs jobs? Oh geez hadn't thought of that. Is that bad?"

You do realise that our exports will become cheaper to foreigners if we leave, right? The pound will fall. So yes, to others. And once we're out, we can negotiate with other countries to remove said tariffs. That's one key reason why we should leave... because the EU is denying us our sovereign right to trade freely with whoever we wish.

[OngBonga]

You talk about food. If we can trade freely with, say, Brazil, do you think their produce will become more expensive?

[OngBonga]

Er ok, maybe we'll just make less shit.

This is the opposite of what we should be doing. We should make MORE shit, for our internal markets to replace imports, and for foreign markets where we can agree trade deals.

[Poopadoop]

Do you think we don't make food?

Please stop being a retard if you want to continue this conversation.

We import about 50% our food, 30% from the EU and 20% from everywhere else.

£66 fucking billion? Of course I don't believe it.

No of course you don't.

The falling pound is having a positive impact for companies that export, and for retailers who trade in tourist hotspots. It's also good for British holiday resorts, since less people will go abroad.

A falling currency is good for a weak economy and bad for a strong one. Overall it's mostly a bad sign inasmuch as it's a sign of a weak economy.

Also, Brexit hasn't cost anything yet, because it hasn't happened. Brexit uncertainty is the problem, which is precisely the reason we can't vote on this over and over, like an election.

Can't wait to see how much it costs when it really does start costing us.

[Poopadoop]

You do realise that our exports will become cheaper to foreigners if we leave, right? The pound will fall. So yes, to others.

See above. Our economy will become weaker, the pound will fall. And you only see the good side of this.

Economics fail.

And once we're out, we can negotiate with other countries to remove said tariffs. That's one key reason why we should leave... because the EU is denying us our sovereign right to trade freely with whoever we wish.

We have more leverage trading as part of a larger bloc than we do alone. It's not complicated.

And yea, once Brazil starts making cheap tomatoes and moves its country to the mid-Atlantic so that transporting them to us is cheaper than transporting the ones from Spain we'll be laughing.

[OngBonga]

A weak currency does not imply a weak economy.

https://www.economicshelp.org/blog/1...om-weak-pound/

In short:
Winners from weak Pound

• UK exporters who will be more competitive.
• Foreign tourists coming to UK (a little ironic given context of Brexit vote!)
• Foreign investors who find British assets/housing cheaper.
• UK firms who earn profits abroad. (e.g. firms who have investments in the US)

Losers from weak Pound

• Foreign firms exporting to UK (e.g. Irish farmers hit by fall in Sterling)
• British holidaymakers going abroad will find US and EU more expensive
• Foreign workers in the UK. Working in the UK is relatively less attractive (could reduce incentive for net migration to the UK)

If you're in the "loser" category, then adapt your business model. Find cheaper imports, or source local products.

The losers from a weak pound are importers, holiday makers abroad, and foreign workers. If the pound is strong, the reverse is true. Is that what a strong economy is to you? A country that imports more than it exports? A country where its citizens go abroad for holidays rather than home? A country where more foreign workers are sending money home?

Please stop being a retard if you want to continue this conversation.

And yea, once Brazil starts making cheap tomatoes and moves its country to the mid-Atlantic so that transporting them to us is cheaper than transporting the ones from Spain we'll be laughing.

Haha irony alert. I can grow tomatoes in my greenhouse for next to fuck all. Why do we need to buy them from Spain or Brazil? I'm thinking exotic foods that we can't grow easily here, perhaps sugar and coffee.

We have more leverage trading as part of a larger bloc than we do alone. It's not complicated.

This is bollocks. Leverage? What leverage? The only people we can trade freely with are other EU countries. You call that leverage?

[OngBonga]

See above. Our economy will become weaker, the pound will fall. And you only see the good side of this.

I understand there's a bad side to it. But like I say, adapt your business model. A weaker pound only implies a weaker economy if business does not adapt. But it will, because capitalism is a great thing. If a business fails to adapt, they go bust, and the ones who do adapt or were already suited to the new economic landscape fill the void.

[OngBonga]

It's worth noting that Japan have the world's 3rd largest economy. It must be that Asian Union they're a part of.

Imagine if Japan allowed China to tell them who they can and can't trade freely with.

[Poopadoop]

A weak currency does not imply a weak economy.

https://www.economicshelp.org/blog/1...om-weak-pound/

Effects != causes.

[Poopadoop]

Haha irony alert. I can grow tomatoes in my greenhouse for next to fuck all. Why do we need to buy them from Spain or Brazil?

Not all of us have time to be our own farmers.

This is bollocks. Leverage? What leverage? The only people we can trade freely with are other EU countries. You call that leverage?

The leverage of being a bigger trade bloc than just one country. Generally speaking, if you have more goods to trade and more markets to offer, you can get a better deal.

[Poopadoop]

It's worth noting that Japan have the world's 3rd largest economy.

EU economy is bigger than Japan's.

UK outside of EU is smaller than Japan.

[OngBonga]

Not all of us have time to be our own farmers.

Well done for completely missing the point once again.

Why do we need to import tomatoes? I could grow enough in my greenhouse to sell some to you. Holy fuck, I just adapted my business model to take advantage of the new economic landscape!

The leverage of being a bigger trade bloc than just one country. Generally speaking, if you have more goods to trade and more markets to offer, you can get a better deal.

A better deal with who? The countries we can't negotiate bilateral trade deals with?

EU economy is bigger than Japan's.

The EU is not a nation state. Does the UK benefit if Germany sells more cars to China?

UK outside of EU is smaller than Japan.

Correction. INSIDE the EU our economy is smaller than Japan's. The UK economy is not the EU economy. We don't even have the same currency.

Outside the EU, our economy will be smaller, but it might not remain the case. Regardless, we're not in competition with Japan to have the biggest economy. My point is that Japan are showing the world that being in an economic bloc is not a critical aspect of a strong economy. Japan manage just fine, without having to cede powers to the mainland continent.

[Poopadoop]

Well done for completely missing the point once again.

Oh sorry you said you were going to grow your own tomatoes in your greenhouse. Sorry I didn't realize the wider implications that you were also going to grow the whole country's tomatoes. How silly of me.

Looks like you've got a new career. Now also start a cattle farm, a pig farm, a dairy farm, etc. and everything else we need to make up that 30% we don't want to pay tarrifs to buy from the EU. And do it BEFORE Brexit because I don't want to have to pay more for my food while I wait for you to set up Ong Farms Inc. and get it in full production.

Why do we need to import tomatoes? I could grow enough in my greenhouse to sell some to you. Holy fuck, I just adapted my business model to take advantage of the new economic landscape!

lol, mbn to live in your simple little Brexit world where everything just works out peachy.

[Poopadoop]

Correction. INSIDE the EU our economy is smaller than Japan's. The UK economy is not the EU economy. We don't even have the same currency.

Outside the EU, our economy will be smaller, but it might not remain the case. Regardless, we're not in competition with Japan to have the biggest economy. My point is that Japan are showing the world that being in an economic bloc is not a critical aspect of a strong economy. Japan manage just fine,

Do you have any idea of the value of having trade arrangements? The EU is a readymade trade deal: lack of tariffs and free movement of labour. Leave that and we are starting from scratch. It doesn't fucking matter if Japan did ok out of it 70 years after WWII ended. I'm not going to live long enough for the disruption and economic pain Brexit will cause to sort itself out.

without having to cede powers to the mainland continent.

What specific powers are we ceding? I mean concrete things, not just some vague ideals of 'sovereignty'.

[OngBonga]

And do it BEFORE Brexit because I don't want to have to pay more for my food while I wait for you to set up Ong Farms Inc. and get it in full production.

If I were actually a business owner then I would adapt my business before we leave, but not because I give a fuck about your short term finances, rather because I care about my business not going bust.

But you're being short sighted here. You surely understand that tomatoes grown in this country will be cheaper than imports, right? So, even if it takes me six months to get going, you pay more for your tomatoes for six months, then less for the foreseeable future.

Sorry I didn't realize the wider implications that you were also going to grow the whole country's tomatoes.

You're being deliberately obtuse here. I'm simplifying things massively. I'm not going to grow the nation's tomatoes in my greenhouse, but if I had a large enough greenhouse, I could maybe grow enough for 100 people, maybe 1000 people.

Now also start a cattle farm, a pig farm, a dairy farm, etc. and everything else we need to make up that 30% we don't want to pay tarrifs to buy from the EU.

Indeed. Now you're getting the idea. Produce more, import less.

[OngBonga]

What specific powers are we ceding? I mean concrete things, not just some vague ideals of 'sovereignty'.

Um... the ability to negotiate bilateral trade agreements, the right to fish our own waters, the right to determine how many immigrants we admit, and from what nations... do some googling. It's like you're completely unaware of what the EU is. It's all trade, no politics, right?

[Poopadoop]

If I were actually a business owner then I would adapt my business before we leave, but not because I give a fuck about your short term finances

If you were actually a business owner you'd realize that it's not just one guy in SE England who is paying more for their food while you and the rest of the country sort out its food production. It's everyone, and that includes you.

You surely understand that tomatoes grown in this country will be cheaper than imports, right?

Why don't we grow all our own tomatoes already then? If it's cheaper, surely we should be doing it already?

I'm not an expert on this, but I'm guessing tomatoes grow better in Spain's climate than ours, and that overall it's cheaper to grow them in Spain and bring them here than grow our own, especially if we can use our land to grow other things that we are good at producing and can export them for a big profit.

I'm sure there's also things that won't grow here at all, like olives.

Indeed. Now you're getting the idea. Produce more, import less.

More like "produce less efficiently ourselves and export less things we're efficient at producing."

[Poopadoop]

Um... the ability to negotiate bilateral trade agreements, the right to fish our own waters, the right to determine how many immigrants we admit, and from what nations... do some googling. It's like you're completely unaware of what the EU is. It's all trade, no politics, right?

Right. I knew all that already, I just don't see them as problems but rather as benefits.

I half-expected you to come up with some more tinfoil hat shit about being part of the EU Empire Army or summat.

[OngBonga]

If you were actually a business owner you'd realize that it's not just one guy in SE England who is paying more for their food while you and the rest of the country sort out its food production. It's everyone, and that includes you.

Short term losses for long term gains.

Why don't we grow all our own tomatoes already then? If it's cheaper, surely we should be doing it already?

No idea. But home grown tomatoes do not require shipping. Furthermore, the money paid for them stays in the country, thus supporting the economy. If home grown tomatoes aren't cheaper than imports, something is wrong. Maybe we're paying slave labour to foreign farmers.

I'm not an expert on this,

Neither am I, and I'm not intending to give the impression I am.

but I'm guessing tomatoes grow better in Spain's climate than ours

This is why we have greenhouses.

especially if we can use our land to grow other things that we are good at producing and can export them for a big profit.

If this is why we import tomatoes, I have no problem with it. Is that what's happening?

More like "produce less efficiently ourselves and export less things we're efficient at producing."

We're talking about tomatoes here, not pineapple. We can grow tomatoes no problem. My Nan did so when I was a kid, and they were the best.

[OngBonga]

Right. I knew all that already, I just don't see them as problems but rather as benefits.

I half-expected you to come up with some more tinfoil hat shit about being part of the EU Empire Army or summat.

https://www.politico.eu/article/ange...mplement-nato/

tinfoil my arse

[OngBonga]

google > EU army

Do that before accusing people of tinfoling when they express concerns about such a thing.

[OngBonga]

Right. I knew all that already, I just don't see them as problems but rather as benefits.

How is it a benefit to not be allowed to negotiate bilateral trade deals? How is it a benefit to not fish our own waters? And how is it a benefit to have an external power tell us who we should admit into our country?

[OngBonga]

If you think an EU army is a good thing, fair enough, I can respect your opinion. But don't sit there and tell me it's not something they want, when Merkel and Macron have explicitly stated it is something they want. You come across as lazily misinformed.

[Poopadoop]

google > EU army

Do that before accusing people of tinfoling when they express concerns about such a thing.

Simple question: Would membership in the EU Empire Army be mandatory or voluntary? Would every country in the EU be required to participate whether it wants to or not? Who would command this army? Who would decide where to send it?

I also remind you of what I said before about this: talking != doing.

[Poopadoop]

If you think an EU army is a good thing, fair enough, I can respect your opinion. But don't sit there and tell me it's not something they want, when Merkel and Macron have explicitly stated it is something they want. You come across as lazily misinformed.

Yeah we had this conversation before, but I'm still not quite sure where you think the UK fits into it. Would we be required to provide troops to the EU Imperial Army that hasn't actually been formed yet?

[Poopadoop]

I'm a little more concerned with concrete things that are actually happening than some vague ideas politicians float around.