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  1. #376
    Quote Originally Posted by oskar View Post
    You're probably on drugs right now! What the fuck are you talking about?! Who gives a shit if people buy and sell drugs?
    Way to miss the point. Not just drug dealers, but fraudsters, burglars, people we do give a shit about. Whether we agree with it or not, drug dealers are criminals. Maybe I should've just said if I were a criminal I'd be delighted to see defunding of the police, but I really didn't expect anyone to go "bwaaa you're on drugs".

    I can't believe anyone could watch the footage from these protests and go: What these PD's needs is a weekend seminar about appropriate force. These departments need to be cleaned out.

    Poop is the one that wants to train them to deescalate. I agree with you, they need to be cleaned out. But reform is what's needed, not abolishment. Anyone who actually says "abolish the police" is either an anarchist or will replace it with something that is essentially a police force.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  2. #377
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    Quote Originally Posted by Poopadoop View Post
    Yeah, we need this instead.
    Oh well, you're right, you can't have a violent mob of short tempered high school dropouts running around acting like they're immune to the rule of law, harassing and intimiating people for no good reason and... WAIT A MINUTE!
    The strengh of a hero is defined by the weakness of his villains.
  3. #378
    What good is replacing one mob with another?
    I just think we should suspend judgment on Boris until we have all the facts through an inquiry, police investigation, and parliamentary commission...then we should explode him.
    also,
    I'd like to be called Lord Poopy His Most Gloriously Excellent.
  4. #379
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    Quote Originally Posted by OngBonga View Post
    Way to miss the point. Not just drug dealers, but fraudsters, burglars, people we do give a shit about.
    You've got at point there. Without the police, who would you call after your shit gets broken into for someone to type up a 2 page report at 60 letters a minute and file it away? Fraud is handled by the better business bureau or your local equivalent, not the police.

    And no, I don't consider drug dealers criminals because it's a bullshit crime that shouldn't exist. Why are you surprised that I find humor in you thinking that drug dealers should be harassed and detained when you directly benefit from their business.
    The strengh of a hero is defined by the weakness of his villains.
  5. #380
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    Quote Originally Posted by Poopadoop View Post
    What good is replacing one mob with another?
    speculative
    The strengh of a hero is defined by the weakness of his villains.
  6. #381
    Quote Originally Posted by oskar View Post
    speculative
    Ok, so what happens when there's a murder? Or rape?
    I just think we should suspend judgment on Boris until we have all the facts through an inquiry, police investigation, and parliamentary commission...then we should explode him.
    also,
    I'd like to be called Lord Poopy His Most Gloriously Excellent.
  7. #382
    Quote Originally Posted by Poopadoop View Post
    Boston Harbour currently trending on Twitter as the outrage spreads.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  8. #383
    Quote Originally Posted by oskar View Post
    You've got at point there. Without the police, who would you call after your shit gets broken into for someone to type up a 2 page report at 60 letters a minute and file it away? Fraud is handled by the better business bureau or your local equivalent, not the police.

    And no, I don't consider drug dealers criminals because it's a bullshit crime that shouldn't exist. Why are you surprised that I find humor in you thinking that drug dealers should be harassed and detained when you directly benefit from their business.
    Are you actually an anarchist? I'd probably be less inclined to think you're deranged if you are.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  9. #384
    In principle, I'm an anarchist. I just don't think we're ready for it yet. I think anarchism right now would be worse than fascism. Too many horrible cunts.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  10. #385
    Iceland is ready for anarchism.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  11. #386
    Quote Originally Posted by Poopadoop View Post
    Ok, so what happens when there's a murder? Or rape?
    Community investigates, but their tools aren't things like national databases of fingerprints and DNA, nor a network of different units coordinating with each other, they instead have things like speculation, pitchforks and torches.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  12. #387
    Quote Originally Posted by OngBonga View Post
    Community investigates, but their tools aren't things like national databases of fingerprints and DNA, nor a network of different units coordinating with each other, they instead have things like speculation, pitchforks and torches.
    Pretty much, yeah.
    I just think we should suspend judgment on Boris until we have all the facts through an inquiry, police investigation, and parliamentary commission...then we should explode him.
    also,
    I'd like to be called Lord Poopy His Most Gloriously Excellent.
  13. #388
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    Quote Originally Posted by Poopadoop View Post
    Ok, so what happens when there's a murder? Or rape?
    Homicide is a completely different department from the cops that shoot your dog. You can have people who investigate homicide without also paying thugs to harass people for no reason.
    The strengh of a hero is defined by the weakness of his villains.
  14. #389
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    Quote Originally Posted by OngBonga View Post
    Are you actually an anarchist? I'd probably be less inclined to think you're deranged if you are.
    I mean what I say. I don't think putting a label on it is helpful.
    The strengh of a hero is defined by the weakness of his villains.
  15. #390
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    Quote Originally Posted by OngBonga View Post
    Community investigates, but their tools aren't things like national databases of fingerprints and DNA, nor a network of different units coordinating with each other, they instead have things like speculation, pitchforks and torches.
    Policemen are magic people who have magic powers that normies don't.
    The strengh of a hero is defined by the weakness of his villains.
  16. #391
    I don't like the police. I just think they're necessary because people are cunts.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  17. #392
    Quote Originally Posted by oskar View Post
    Homicide is a completely different department from the cops that shoot your dog. You can have people who investigate homicide without also paying thugs to harass people for no reason.
    Ok, so the feds can deal with the serious stuff. Fair enough. You're not calling for the abolishment of criminal investigation, so we're not balls out anarchy here. But we still have dickheads fighting each other at pubs, we still have shoplifters and domestic violence. We're gonna waste highly paid feds' time with this?
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  18. #393
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    Dude you're thinking of the UK which has a "police" force very close to what I would advocate for. They don't send armed forces to settle a fight at a pub, they send some cunt with a stick. He doesn't even get a proper weapon, and that's how it should be!
    The strengh of a hero is defined by the weakness of his villains.
  19. #394
    So you're not talking about defunding the cops, you're wanting to disarm them. I'm unconvinced how responsible that is in an armed country.

    Obviously a militarised police force is not ideal, but it seems preferable to heavily armed people and cops with sticks.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  20. #395
    MadMojoMonkey's Avatar
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    It's true that a lot of Americans own guns, but not true that most Americans are heavily armed. Sure, it's common to see a pickup truck with a gunrack across the back window, often with a hunting rifle or 2 on it. But that is not heavily armed, and doesn't represent most Americans.

    My family owns a lot of guns. They're kept in a locked safe, unloaded, and separate from any bullets. They are only used for taking out to a firing range to shoot at paper targets, and that is the only intended use. It's like a weekend hobby. My family don't carry guns around with them. That's how it is almost across the board.

    The fact that some criminals are armed is no reason to have your average beat cop armed. The average encounter by a beat cop is with an unarmed person, in a nonviolent situation. If there is any need for armed police that need to be called in to respond, then a special weapons and tactics (SWAT) unit can be called in. In most cases currently, that requires exceptional circumstances. I'm not opposed to disarming all beat cops and anyone whose job is to patrol, provided those units have a SWAT unit on duty, not patrolling as backup they can call in.

    Sounds a lot like the UK system, AFAIK.

    I'm not saying the UK system is perfect, but it sounds a damn fair bit more efficient at not killing non-violent criminals that what we currently have in the US.



    Also, ong. If you haven't watched the John Oliver video that was posted, here, I think you should. He's making almost the same argument you have made about the system being orchestrated to sow division and keep us divided. And he swears a lot.
    Grade A material. It is severely lacking in any direction of what to do now about the problem, but states the problem with more depth than anything I've seen in a single location, yet.
    You can find any pattern you want to any level of precision you want, if you're prepared to ignore enough data.
  21. #396
    Quote Originally Posted by CoccoBill View Post
    I'm pretty sure BLM isn't about overthrowing the government, creating a new black nation in America nor moving back to Africa. I think it's about reforms that would treat blacks equally under the law. I don't think you can just pick the words of one guy a little further down history, and claim that's what everything is really about. The reforms that would improve things for blacks today, as MMM has already said many times, are ones that would help everyone, regardless of color.

    For an outside observer, what you're saying in a nutshell is "yeah I hear ya, but I ain't doing shit unless it helps me".
    I jumped in to express my favorite thing related to BLM: the philosophical component of black liberation from slavers' system. But you're a 100% right that isn't in the rank and file of BLM and contemporary discourse has lost a good deal of that. That stuff is more predecessor to BLM, but as you can see it's still deeply embedded.

    I'll avoid discussing BLM in more contemporary terms because that's where I start disagreeing with them. Their actions make sense to me through the lens of black liberation, but through the lens of equal treatment -- they make less sense.

    I like the protesting, in general Beyond that, I can't morally get behind automatic accusation of racism, the poor martyr choices, and the statistics ignorance.
  22. #397
    Quote Originally Posted by oskar View Post
    I am for abolishing the police.
    I'm down with this BIG TIME.

    It might be the most effective way to de-monopolize law and de-monopolize violence.

    Like Obama said, the nation-state is the monopoly on violence.
  23. #398
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    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    and the statistics ignorance.
    I asked once before for your statistical source to help make sense of what you claimed being at odds with what is different that what I could find here.

    https://mappingpoliceviolence.org/

    I ask again. Please share your statistics and their sources.

    How can we not be statistics ignorant if you wont share your statisticsthis with us?
    You can find any pattern you want to any level of precision you want, if you're prepared to ignore enough data.
  24. #399
    Quote Originally Posted by MadMojoMonkey View Post
    I didn't find the source on your data.
    I pulled it from historian/professor Thaddeus Russell. The source appears to be Washington Post's database, but that's behind a paywall. It might be possible to go one-by-one through their list of 1,003 killed by cops to find the number.

    If we just look at your numbers, it seems like you're saying that when ( 9 / 41 = ) 21% of police killings affect 13% of the population, that's somehow less than should be expected. I don't see why that's not 50% more than expected.
    I am not saying that. I believe black people are treated differently by the police than white people. But I don't believe the data supports (1) that the cause is unknown-by-us racist thoughts, and (2) that cops kill black people more unjustly than others.

    I also don't want to get into this too hard (but thank you for asking) because non-experimental data is sooooo hard to talk about wisely. Like that which is accredited to Ronald Coase: "If you torture the data long enough, it will confess."

    But I DID mention data here because you smartly asked me for my feelings. My feelings are not convinced by the claims cops act upon racist thoughts and unjustly kill black people more than others. I am, however, extremely convinced that inequality of treatment exists elsewhere.

    Patrice O'Neal, for example, once told about how he and several other black kids were railroaded into prison from a white girl and a white judge and jury. And I believe every single word of his story.
  25. #400
    Churchill statue defaced.

    I just think we should suspend judgment on Boris until we have all the facts through an inquiry, police investigation, and parliamentary commission...then we should explode him.
    also,
    I'd like to be called Lord Poopy His Most Gloriously Excellent.
  26. #401
    Wait until they find out Mohammed bought and sold slaves.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  27. #402
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    "I watched, he fell harder than was pushed." -Trump talking about the 75 yo who was pushed to the ground by police.

    Does someone literally need to explain how gravity works to Trump? Like not in a math way, but in a "if a thing is falling, it speeds up as it falls" kind of way?

    I mean, I don't expect politicians to be scientists, but I do expect at least that level of common sense that makes you not walk out the 2nd story window when leaving your house. You don't have to trust scientists to believe correctly that you would fall due to gravity.


    ***
    In order for the man to "fall harder," he'd have to push off of something above him, or have been pulled to the ground (by something other than gravity) for that to happen.

    The only thing putting a force on him besides gravity was the push.
    You can find any pattern you want to any level of precision you want, if you're prepared to ignore enough data.
  28. #403
    He fell too fast. Where have I heard that before? This kinda doesn't feel like the first time gravity has been used creatively to explain away uncomfortable questions.

    Yeah, I went there.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  29. #404
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    IDK what you're referencing. Where did you go?
    You can find any pattern you want to any level of precision you want, if you're prepared to ignore enough data.
  30. #405
    Quote Originally Posted by MadMojoMonkey View Post
    IDK what you're referencing. Where did you go?
    Spoiler:
    9/11
    I just think we should suspend judgment on Boris until we have all the facts through an inquiry, police investigation, and parliamentary commission...then we should explode him.
    also,
    I'd like to be called Lord Poopy His Most Gloriously Excellent.
  31. #406
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    Oh right. Silly me.
    You can find any pattern you want to any level of precision you want, if you're prepared to ignore enough data.
  32. #407
    Quote Originally Posted by MadMojoMonkey View Post
    "I watched, he fell harder than was pushed." -Trump talking about the 75 yo who was pushed to the ground by police.
    Yeah he's definitely gone deep into tin-hat territory here. The idea is that the guy was a plant to deliberately get pushed over by police, then deliberately fall faster than he was pushed and deliberately bang his head on the ground, to deliberately knock himself out. All this just to make the police look bad, and all while he was doing some secret radar shit on his phone to jam their scanners.
    I just think we should suspend judgment on Boris until we have all the facts through an inquiry, police investigation, and parliamentary commission...then we should explode him.
    also,
    I'd like to be called Lord Poopy His Most Gloriously Excellent.
  33. #408
    I'm pretty sure I saw footage of this old guy with a scarf over his face smashing a shop window up.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  34. #409
    Also pretty sure that's the same guy seen holding the umbrella in Dealey Plaza in '63, standing behind Ted Cruz's father. Older now than he was then of course.

    I just think we should suspend judgment on Boris until we have all the facts through an inquiry, police investigation, and parliamentary commission...then we should explode him.
    also,
    I'd like to be called Lord Poopy His Most Gloriously Excellent.
  35. #410
    MadMojoMonkey's Avatar
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    Police scanners operate on radio frequencies.
    Cell phones operate on microwave frequencies.

    Apparently, a cell phone can not be made to transmit radio frequencies with only a software change.

    So if this guy was using a phone for what he's accused of, that phone will have obvious hardware changes made to it. Maybe only obvious if you took the case off.


    Is there even enough power in a cell phone to actively jam anything more than a short distance away from it?
    That one's harder to find info on.
    You can find any pattern you want to any level of precision you want, if you're prepared to ignore enough data.
  36. #411
    Quote Originally Posted by MadMojoMonkey View Post
    Police scanners operate on radio frequencies.
    Cell phones operate on microwave frequencies.

    Apparently, a cell phone can not be made to transmit radio frequencies with only a software change.

    So if this guy was using a phone for what he's accused of, that phone with have obvious hardware changes made to it. Maybe only obvious if you took the case off.


    Is there even enough power in a cell phone to actively jam anything more than a short distance away from it?
    That one's harder to find info on.
    I bet aliens could do it.
    I just think we should suspend judgment on Boris until we have all the facts through an inquiry, police investigation, and parliamentary commission...then we should explode him.
    also,
    I'd like to be called Lord Poopy His Most Gloriously Excellent.
  37. #412
    MadMojoMonkey's Avatar
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    IDK how the cell phone transmitter works. The most energy efficient way would be to use a 1/4 wave antenna, which would be on the order of <1 cm long to transmit microwaves, which can easily fit in a cell phone.

    The same antenna for radio frequency transmitting would be on the order of ~1 foot long. Not able to be hidden in a cell phone.
    You can find any pattern you want to any level of precision you want, if you're prepared to ignore enough data.
  38. #413
    Tesla did it in 1903.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  39. #414
    So where's the evidence this particular old man was jamming their frequencies?

    And more to the point: What was he going to jam them for? Just to be a nuisance, or so they couldn't call in reinforcements to knock him over a few more times?
    I just think we should suspend judgment on Boris until we have all the facts through an inquiry, police investigation, and parliamentary commission...then we should explode him.
    also,
    I'd like to be called Lord Poopy His Most Gloriously Excellent.
  40. #415
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    ... so he was supposed to be "scanning" the police radio? If we pretend for a second that the potus is not fucking retarded, my first issue would be that whatever he's supposed to be scanning, he could be doing that from a lot further away.
    Police radios are not usually encrypted so you could literally just scan for police radio with an ebay police scanner. There are internet radio stations broadcasting police radio from across the globe 24/7. If it is encrypted, cracking that would certainly be a lot more involved than waving a cell phone around.
    The strengh of a hero is defined by the weakness of his villains.
  41. #416
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    Quote Originally Posted by Poopadoop View Post
    So where's the evidence this particular old man was jamming their frequencies?

    And more to the point: What was he going to jam them for? Just to be a nuisance, or so they couldn't call in reinforcements to knock him over a few more times?
    ... oh he's supposed to be jamming it? I guess the most energy efficient way to jam it would be to get as close as possible. Downside: only good for as long as you're waving your jamming device around the crotch area of the cop, and not a second longer than that.
    The strengh of a hero is defined by the weakness of his villains.
  42. #417
    Police radios are encrypted here, they surely are in USA too.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  43. #418
    MadMojoMonkey's Avatar
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    While there's no law that says police radio frequencies cannot be encrypted, the standard is that they're not.
    You can find any pattern you want to any level of precision you want, if you're prepared to ignore enough data.
  44. #419
    If you the cops walk up to someone waving a cell phone around, is that grounds to believe he's jamming your frequencies and thus you're justified in cracking his head open?
    I just think we should suspend judgment on Boris until we have all the facts through an inquiry, police investigation, and parliamentary commission...then we should explode him.
    also,
    I'd like to be called Lord Poopy His Most Gloriously Excellent.
  45. #420
    Wait, he's also been identified as the blurry shape on the grassy knoll now. Fuck me, this guy is good!

    I just think we should suspend judgment on Boris until we have all the facts through an inquiry, police investigation, and parliamentary commission...then we should explode him.
    also,
    I'd like to be called Lord Poopy His Most Gloriously Excellent.
  46. #421
    MadMojoMonkey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Poopadoop View Post
    If you the cops walk up to someone waving a cell phone around, is that grounds to believe he's jamming your frequencies and thus you're justified in cracking his head open?
    I don't even know, anymore.
    You can find any pattern you want to any level of precision you want, if you're prepared to ignore enough data.
  47. #422
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    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Police...#United_States

    Damn that's crazy. Many european countries have used digital encrypted radios since the late 90s.
    Our brains have just one scale, and we resize our experiences to fit.

  48. #423
    MadMojoMonkey's Avatar
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    I found this live video of the jamming.

    Last edited by MadMojoMonkey; 06-09-2020 at 04:57 PM.
    You can find any pattern you want to any level of precision you want, if you're prepared to ignore enough data.
  49. #424
    Quote Originally Posted by oskar View Post
    ... oh he's supposed to be jamming it? I guess the most energy efficient way to jam it would be to get as close as possible. Downside: only good for as long as you're waving your jamming device around the crotch area of the cop, and not a second longer than that.
    Well, according to the 'authorities', yes.

    https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/...33484528214018
    I just think we should suspend judgment on Boris until we have all the facts through an inquiry, police investigation, and parliamentary commission...then we should explode him.
    also,
    I'd like to be called Lord Poopy His Most Gloriously Excellent.
  50. #425
    Lol, came across this gem while looking for the last one.

    Trump plans to start holding rallies next week. Herd immunity, here we come - the fastest way possible!

    https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/...59787998449665

    Also two tweets in-between those where he types in all caps "MAKE AMERICA GREAT AGAIN" . Wait, I thought he just spent the last three years doing that?

    Fuck I'm glad I don't follow him on twitter. My head would surely explode from all the idiocy.
    I just think we should suspend judgment on Boris until we have all the facts through an inquiry, police investigation, and parliamentary commission...then we should explode him.
    also,
    I'd like to be called Lord Poopy His Most Gloriously Excellent.
  51. #426
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    Whenever I read a Trump tweet, I think of Werner Herzog talking about chickens:

    The strengh of a hero is defined by the weakness of his villains.
  52. #427
    At our cousins' farm as a kid we used to hypnotize chickens. You put their head down on the ground, then draw a line on the dirt in front of their face with a stick. Let them go and they just sit there not moving.
    I just think we should suspend judgment on Boris until we have all the facts through an inquiry, police investigation, and parliamentary commission...then we should explode him.
    also,
    I'd like to be called Lord Poopy His Most Gloriously Excellent.
  53. #428
    Yeah, pretty much like this.

    I just think we should suspend judgment on Boris until we have all the facts through an inquiry, police investigation, and parliamentary commission...then we should explode him.
    also,
    I'd like to be called Lord Poopy His Most Gloriously Excellent.
  54. #429
    Quote Originally Posted by MadMojoMonkey View Post
    I found this live video of the jamming.

    I heard Lone Star in my head: "Not if we...JAM IT!"
  55. #430
    Man oh man I miss this movie. Used to act out this scene for friends when I was a kid.

  56. #431
    MadMojoMonkey's Avatar
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    OMG, Spaceballs is such a classic.



    What the hell am I looking at?! When does this happen in the movie?
    Now. Whatever you're looking at now is happening now.

    Well what happened to then?
    We just passed it.

    When?
    Just now.

    Well go back, then.
    We can't.

    Why not?
    We already passed it.

    ... When will then be now?
    Soon.
    You can find any pattern you want to any level of precision you want, if you're prepared to ignore enough data.
  57. #432
    was just thinking about that scene last week.

    instant cassettes!
  58. #433
    The left seem to be outraging themselves into an awkward situation.

    This outpouring of hate for slave traders takes them to an inevitable conflict... Mohammed.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  59. #434
    Quote Originally Posted by OngBonga View Post
    The left seem to be outraging themselves into an awkward situation.

    This outpouring of hate for slave traders takes them to an inevitable conflict... Mohammed.
    I didn't know the left was a fan of Mohammed. Certainly not the educated left.

    I'm no fan of any religion, but to be fair Mohammed wasn't targeting a particular race with his slavery. Then again, maybe Africans were chosen more out of convenience than racism, and the racism was then used to justify it post hoc.

    All that said, sins of our fathers is a non-starter for me. People need to let that shit go. I don't expect Briish people alive today to be ashamed of those sins any more than I expect Muslims to. But, if we're talking about who to keep statues of, I'd probably not go with slave traders who made their fortunes out of the misery of others.

    I wouldn't pull down Churchill either; he was a product of his times and you'd have a hard time finding someone who wasn't racist back then tbf.
    I just think we should suspend judgment on Boris until we have all the facts through an inquiry, police investigation, and parliamentary commission...then we should explode him.
    also,
    I'd like to be called Lord Poopy His Most Gloriously Excellent.
  60. #435
    ...but to be fair Mohammed wasn't targeting a particular race with his slavery.
    Take a minute to digest this comment of yours, and then answer me this question...

    What's worse? Slavery or racism?

    Besides, you're not being fair. He discriminated against people based on their religion. He enslaved non-Muslims, those who would not convert. I don't see why that's any better than pure racism.

    I didn't know the left was a fan of Mohammed. Certainly not the educated left.
    The left are quick to defend Islam from the "racists".

    I don't expect Briish people alive today to be ashamed of those sins any more than I expect Muslims to.
    Nor do I. But I do agree with removing statues of slave traders, preferably through legal channels. We shouldn't celebrate these people. That's not whitewashing history, it's just refusing to celebrate the darker chapters.

    It's a bit different with Muslims though. Their entire belief system is built of the moral superiority of one person. It's not about being ashamed of what Mohammed did, it's being ashamed of personally considering this person to be the epitome of morality. Imagine if it emerged Jesus kept slaves, what impact would that have on Christianity?

    I wouldn't pull down Churchill either; he was a product of his times and you'd have a hard time finding someone who wasn't racist back then tbf.
    Pulling down Churchill statues would cause way too much division here and I'd expect things to kick off if it happened. I appreciate he has a shady past, but he defeated Hitler, of course we're going to celebrate him. I'm sure all sides agree that Hitler was a cunt, with the obvious exception of the far right, and it's not the far right that want to tear down statues of Churchill. Strange that, seeing as he's the opponent of their messiah, while the baying mobs of today just think he was racist.
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  61. #436
    CoccoBill's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OngBonga View Post
    The left are quick to defend Islam from the "racists".
    I'm not sure, but I think you've mistaken defending persons who are muslim for defending Islam.
    Our brains have just one scale, and we resize our experiences to fit.

  62. #437
    Quote Originally Posted by OngBonga View Post
    Take a minute to digest this comment of yours, and then answer me this question...

    What's worse? Slavery or racism?
    If slavery were an ongoing problem today we could debate that. Racism is an ongoing problem, that's why all the hubbub about racism atm.



    Quote Originally Posted by OngBonga View Post
    Besides, you're not being fair. He discriminated against people based on their religion. He enslaved non-Muslims, those who would not convert. I don't see why that's any better than pure racism.
    I'm not defending that, I just don't think that makes a statue of a slave trader worth keeping.



    Quote Originally Posted by OngBonga View Post
    The left are quick to defend Islam from the "racists".
    What Coco said.



    Quote Originally Posted by OngBonga View Post
    Nor do I. But I do agree with removing statues of slave traders, preferably through legal channels. We shouldn't celebrate these people. That's not whitewashing history, it's just refusing to celebrate the darker chapters.
    I heard they had been trying to get the statue of Colston (sp?) in Bristol taken down for years by legal means, and weren't getting anywhere.



    Quote Originally Posted by OngBonga View Post
    It's a bit different with Muslims though. Their entire belief system is built of the moral superiority of one person. It's not about being ashamed of what Mohammed did, it's being ashamed of personally considering this person to be the epitome of morality.
    Since slavery isn't being practiced in Muslim countries today (afaik) presumably they don't consider him the final word on morality. Or perhaps they understand he lived in different times and slavery was a thing then. It's not like he invented it or something, or told his followers they had to keep slaves to be righteous.



    Quote Originally Posted by OngBonga View Post
    Imagine if it emerged Jesus kept slaves, what impact would that have on Christianity?
    The same effect this fact about Moha. has on muslims. None.

    Do you really think someone would give up being Christian if it turned out Jebus was a slave trader 2000 years ago?



    Quote Originally Posted by OngBonga View Post
    Strange that, seeing as he's the opponent of their messiah, while the baying mobs of today just think he was racist.
    It is strange; their whole sense of morality has suddenly become 100% focussed on racism. Like there's nothing else that matters.
    I just think we should suspend judgment on Boris until we have all the facts through an inquiry, police investigation, and parliamentary commission...then we should explode him.
    also,
    I'd like to be called Lord Poopy His Most Gloriously Excellent.
  63. #438
    MadMojoMonkey's Avatar
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    If you go looking for a laundry list of human rights abuses committed by any particular religion, you will find them aplenty.

    Let's not get hung up on it.


    This movement isn't about elevating any religion or suppressing any religion or even reforming any religion.

    This movement is about the overwhelming systemic problem with violence in policing around the world. Whether it's racism against black people in America or people of other colors, affiliations, or tribal ties around the world.

    Bringing violence into a non-violent situation is clearly a human rights problem. When there is a culture which promotes that elevation to violence by the people who are supposed to serve and protect those upon whom the violence it directed, that is a broken system.
    You can find any pattern you want to any level of precision you want, if you're prepared to ignore enough data.
  64. #439
    Quote Originally Posted by cocco
    I'm not sure, but I think you've mistaken defending persons who are muslim for defending Islam.
    It's very hard to criticise Islam without people defaulting to "wacist". The problem is it's so closely linked to immigration. If you are critical of the religion and would prefer it to not be a part of your culture, it's hard to avoid people taking that as hatred for individual Muslims. You might be a little more rational than that, but 80% of Twitter isn't.

    Quote Originally Posted by poop
    I'm not defending that, I just don't think that makes a statue of a slave trader worth keeping.
    I'm not arguing that. I pointed out that the left are approaching an awkward conflict... that if they are to be morally consistent, they will sooner or later have to tackle the problem of criticising someone who lots of people don't want to hear criticism about. I can assure you Muslims love Mohammed more than the English love Churchill. I suspect it's an issue the left will do their best to avoid. They will be selective about who they go gunning for.

    I heard they had been trying to get the statue of Colston (sp?) in Bristol taken down for years by legal means, and weren't getting anywhere.
    That's why I said "preferably". I've not got a problem with that statue being pulled down. And they did get somewhere. They got to a point where they had moral justification to pull it down. You can't just make that decision and do it. You've got to lobby through the right channels, and then eventually when all avenues have been explore,d, you take matters into your own hands. You have higher moral ground to stand on if you at least try to do things legally.

    Since slavery isn't being practiced in Muslim countries today (afaik) presumably they don't consider him the final word on morality.
    Depends how radical a power is. ISIS enslanved people, Boko Haram too. ISIS was the closest thing we've seen to a pure Islamic State in our lives. I appreciate these are the fundamentalists, the ultra-conservatives, but these are the people interpreting religious texts literally. These people believe they are morally justified in enslaving non-Muslims because Mohammed did.

    Not that there's a solution to it. It's not like I think we should pull down statues of Mohammed, it's more that I'm observing a moral conflict amongst those who seek to apply today's morals to historical figures.

    It's not like he invented it or something
    Well no, it's been going on for many millennia, but modern slavery was very much pioneered by the Arabs. They were taking slaves from Africa in the 7th century. So Mohammed came pretty close to inventing modern slavery, if anyone can actually take the "credit" for it.

    Do you really think someone would give up being Christian if it turned out Jebus was a slave trader 2000 years ago?
    Yes, an awful lot of people would probably lose their faith.

    It is strange; their whole sense of morality has suddenly become 100% focussed on racism. Like there's nothing else that matters.
    Isn't this a problem to you? Other things do matter, like public health, social stability and economics.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
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  65. #440
    MadMojoMonkey's Avatar
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    There was a story about taking down a Christopher Columbus statue, too.

    Thing is that CC was one of those figures who was actively arguing for the rights of the indigenous people, but couldn't gain any traction. He was no saint, but when it comes to subjugating humans, he was clearly arguing against that. So we have a problem with the rose colored glasses when looking back at our own history.

    Thomas Jefferson famously owned slaves and while he freed them, it was in his will... after he died... so pretty much a mixed message, there.

    Al Jolson is another example of someone history has shat upon. He was a famous blackface actor from back when that was a thing. What gets lost is how hard he fought to get equal pay for black people in Hollywood and how he argued many times to not be hired to work in blackface, but to hire a black person for that role.
    You can find any pattern you want to any level of precision you want, if you're prepared to ignore enough data.
  66. #441
    If I were making a film, I'd really want a black character played by an East Asian in blackface, then I'd hire a few black actors to play white characters in whiteface. I'd probably have one yellowface for a bit of balance, definitely some men in drag playing the roles of women, a trannie playing the role of a straight man, and a midget playing the role of a bodyguard.

    I think the title should just be "Woke".

    I'm gonna get writing.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  67. #442
    MadMojoMonkey's Avatar
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    If you go over the top hard enough, it could actually work.

    I wouldn't want to take the risk, but... I am pretty risk averse, so there's that.


    Get in a collab with Trey Parker and Matt Stone, though... if anyone could get away with it, it's them.
    "Token" the black kid in South Park, and all.
    You can find any pattern you want to any level of precision you want, if you're prepared to ignore enough data.
  68. #443
    As long as I've got more black people playing white characters than white people playing black characters, then I'm actually hiring more black actors than I would have done if I had black people playing black characters and white people playing white characters.

    I might get an Indian to do a voiceover for the lines of a white character played by a white guy who's perfectly capable of doing his own lines but he doesn't have as funny an accent as the Indian guy. I just hired an extra Asian, too.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  69. #444
    The amount of socially accepted anti-white racism I've experienced in my life is astounding.
  70. #445
    Ignore the above.

    The last thing I should do is bitch about racism on me and people like me. I well understand that the worst thing you can do when people treat you racistly is to act like it owns you.

    History is rife with examples of communities overcoming prejudice by not letting it own them. And history is rife with communities wallowing in despair when they do let it own them.
  71. #446
    MadMojoMonkey's Avatar
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    [x] Says "ignore it"
    [x] Doesn't delete it
    [ ] wants it ignored
    You can find any pattern you want to any level of precision you want, if you're prepared to ignore enough data.
  72. #447
    He's right though. Racism against white people is increasing and is socially acceptable. That is a problem, and wuf thinking that he shouldn't bitch about it is no different to when black people just had to accept racism without complaining about it. The only difference is racism against white people isn't nearly as serious as racism against black people through history. But that does not mean it should be swept under the carpet.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  73. #448
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    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    The amount of socially accepted anti-white racism I've experienced in my life is astounding.
    Counterprotesters need your support!
    https://twitter.com/yxngaaa2/status/...346410496?s=20
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  74. #449
    Quote Originally Posted by OngBonga View Post
    He's right though. Racism against white people is increasing and is socially acceptable.
    Where is the evidence that: a) this increase is happening; and b) it's socially acceptable?


    Quote Originally Posted by OngBonga View Post
    That is a problem, and wuf thinking that he shouldn't bitch about it is no different to when black people just had to accept racism without complaining about it.
    Not really. Minor incidents of racism go uncommented on all the time. I'm fairly sure that unless white people are now being enslaved, lynched, raped, murdered by black cops, etc., then the kind of racism black people historically had to accept is a few orders of magnitude greater than whatever racism white people might have experienced recently.



    Quote Originally Posted by OngBonga View Post
    The only difference is racism against white people isn't nearly as serious as racism against black people through history.
    Saying it's there but not as bad as the racism directed the other way is pretty meh. It's not like anyone is arguing that only white people can be racist.



    Quote Originally Posted by OngBonga View Post
    But that does not mean it should be swept under the carpet.
    Of course, it goes both ways. The question is what level of racism are white people experiencing? Is it serious enough that we should be concerned? He hasn't given specifics so it's hard to know how concerned we should be.
    I just think we should suspend judgment on Boris until we have all the facts through an inquiry, police investigation, and parliamentary commission...then we should explode him.
    also,
    I'd like to be called Lord Poopy His Most Gloriously Excellent.
  75. #450
    Where is the evidence that: a) this increase is happening; and b) it's socially acceptable?
    a) Twitter, b) Twitter.

    Not really. Minor incidents of racism go uncommented on all the time. I'm fairly sure that unless white people are now being enslaved, lynched, raped, murdered by black cops, etc., then the kind of racism black people historically had to accept is a few orders of magnitude greater than whatever racism white people might have experienced recently.

    Are now being enslaved? Are you saying black people are still being enslaved?

    Historically, white people have been subject to slavery. We've had problems in the past with Algerian pirates lurking off the British coast and even raiding coastal villages, taking people into slavery. Of course this is on a much smaller scale than black slavery, and there's no evidence the Algerians were motivated by racial prejudice, more likely it was an economic motive, but actually the same is true of white people. The British fiercely lobbied for the abolishment of slavery, and it wasn't due to morality, it was because of economics. Strange, really, seeing as we were paying off the debt we incurred in 1833 for buying the freedom of all slaves in the Empire until 2015. Not sure how that's good economics, it's probably got a lot to do with where that money was going... slave owners.

    Slavery has always been about economics. Blacks got it worse because whites were more advanced. Had it been the other way round, if it were black people who has the upper hand, then whites would have been enslaved en masse.

    You are correct though, the level of racism white's are subject to is orders of magnitude less than what black's have suffered through history. But does that mean we should disregard it? If it's left unchecked, it progressively gets worse.

    Saying it's there but not as bad as the racism directed the other way is pretty meh. It's not like anyone is arguing that only white people can be racist.
    It's still a problem, and it's practically taboo to talk about it because people don't take it seriously enough, people take it as disregarding problems elsewhere when the opposite is true. Racism of all kinds is a problem, and it you start saying "well let's focus on racism against blacks first", that is actually a racist policy because it discriminates against people based on their race. To say to someone "the racism you experience isn't that bad because you're white", that's dangerously close to hypocrisy.

    Of course, it goes both ways. The question is what level of racism are white people experiencing? Is it serious enough that we should be concerned?
    https://twitter.com/squawkying/statu...84490067079168

    If this were a black guy getting beaten by whites, there would be a great deal of concern.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong

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