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Make your case: transgender, transracial

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  1. #1

    Default Make your case: transgender, transracial

    The contemporary social narrative is that it's right to accept transgender as a fundamental truth but not transracial. Is the reasoning used good or bad? Explain.
  2. #2
    spoonitnow's Avatar
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    This is a topic that's already been decided scientifically, and any other discussion is asinine.

    The transgender concept has been proven; genitals and brain structure aren't formed at the same time, female brains and male brains are pretty different structurally and with how they develop, etc. There's nothing to debate with regard to it existing. There is debate as to the degree that people who identify as transgender have this type of condition, meaning that there are certainly people who do not have "mismatched" (for lack of a better word) brain makeup and genitals who still decide to identify as transgender anyway.

    Race has been proven as a matter of genetics. Transracial doesn't exist unless you decide to completely change your genetics to something completely different, which is not currently possible. Again, you can have people who decide to identify as transracial anyway, but there's never a case (unlike transgender) where it actually does exist.

    On some level, we're going to have to decide if we want to allow people to identify as whatever gender or race they want. The issue right now is that it's difficult to prove that someone is not transgender because there are cases where it does happen. We don't have that issue for transracial.

    tl;dr: Transgender provably exists, and transracial provably doesn't.
    Last edited by spoonitnow; 04-13-2016 at 02:38 PM.
  3. #3
    Isn't that an argument for the scientifically verified nature of transexuality instead of transgender-ness?

    While race is genetic, there appears to have become a cultural meaning to it as well, perhaps in a similar way that cultural meanings of gender have arisen from sex.
  4. #4
    spoonitnow's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    Isn't that an argument for the scientifically verified nature of transexuality instead of transgender-ness?

    While race is genetic, there appears to have become a cultural meaning to it as well, perhaps in a similar way that cultural meanings of gender have arisen from sex.
    To clarify, transexual (not to be confused with transsexed) is a subset of transgender. All transexuals are transgender, but not all transgender are transexuals, etc. Feel free to look up precise definitions if you'd like.

    On the topic of race being cultural, I largely disagree, but have no interest in discussing it.
    Last edited by spoonitnow; 04-13-2016 at 02:54 PM.
  5. #5
    What is the reasoning used?

    I've never heard of people wanting to be transracial but I couldn't care less what people want to do with their own bodies.

    I don't really understand either. With regards to people who are transgender (apples to transracial too I suppose) I don't understand what it is that makes you feel this way or what stops you being yourself in your own body. For someone to say they feel like a man/woman just doesn't really mean anything to me. Seems mostly like social and cultural pressures dictating people should be a certain way but I have no real experience with it. Not that there is necessarily anything wrong with that, if you're uncomfortable in your own body and can change it more power to you.

    I remember watching a Louis Theroux documentary about transgender children and just thinking the lengths that parents went to whilst they had reasonably young children to facilitate a change in sex was strange and it was usually based on something that seemed fairly trivial (probably ignorantly on my part) like a boy liking to play with dolls and wear dresses.

    Out of interest are there drugs that actually make you whiter? There's a youtube channel I watch with strange "bodybuilders" and one of the people takes some pills (think they are illegal) leading up to contests and he literally turns black, it very slowly wears off when he stops taking them.
    Last edited by Savy; 04-13-2016 at 03:15 PM.
  6. #6
    MadMojoMonkey's Avatar
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    @wuf: How do you define race?

    In America, we recognize ~4 races... white, black, yellow, red... forgive the color words, but it's hard to say that yellow = chinese = japanese = vietnamese /= indian or Russian, and yes, this is a stupid distinction to make, but Americans make it, so... Same for red meaning indigenous peoples of certain regions (North America mostly).

    Other cultures recognize different numbers of races to the extremes of Brazil, who recognize upwards of 20 different races, based solely on skin tone. In Brazil, you aren't 1 race, but a range of races depending on your current level of suntan.


    @spoon: Show me any genealogical or scientific evidence that race is a verifiable human trait, and tell me the defining characteristics of each race.
  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by MadMojoMonkey View Post
    @wuf: How do you define race?
    A somewhat arbitrary designation based on a mix of certain types of morphology, heritage, and culture.
  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by ImSavy View Post
    What is the reasoning used?
    It appears that with transgender it boils down to whether or not you want to identify as transgender.
  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by ImSavy View Post
    I've never heard of people wanting to be transracial
    Rachel Dolezal
  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by spoonitnow View Post
    The transgender concept has been proven; genitals and brain structure aren't formed at the same time, female brains and male brains are pretty different structurally and with how they develop, etc. There's nothing to debate with regard to it existing. There is debate as to the degree that people who identify as transgender have this type of condition, meaning that there are certainly people who do not have "mismatched" (for lack of a better word) brain makeup and genitals who still decide to identify as transgender anyway.
    Let's say you were born a male (you got the sex parts and the chromosomes) yet you have elements of a female brain. Even if you want to identify as a female, you're still not exactly a female.

    The same is true of race. You can be born Irish, but maybe you were raised in a black household in Mississippi and you "think like a black Mississippian."

    In our society, it seems it is okay for the former to choose what to be called while it is not okay for the latter. I can't square this circle.
  11. #11
    spoonitnow's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MadMojoMonkey View Post
    @wuf: How do you define race?

    In America, we recognize ~4 races... white, black, yellow, red... forgive the color words, but it's hard to say that yellow = chinese = japanese = vietnamese /= indian or Russian, and yes, this is a stupid distinction to make, but Americans make it, so... Same for red meaning indigenous peoples of certain regions (North America mostly).

    Other cultures recognize different numbers of races to the extremes of Brazil, who recognize upwards of 20 different races, based solely on skin tone. In Brazil, you aren't 1 race, but a range of races depending on your current level of suntan.


    @spoon: Show me any genealogical or scientific evidence that race is a verifiable human trait, and tell me the defining characteristics of each race.
    You can research that yourself.
  12. #12
    MadMojoMonkey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    A somewhat arbitrary designation based on a mix of certain types of morphology, heritage, and culture.
    If it's all arbitrary lines in the sand, anyway, then doesn't that imply that if you even care, you're just being pretentious?

    I don't understand how you expect to get any coherent discussion when you offer only the most bare and faint hint of a definition of what you want to discuss.

    At any rate, the struggle for personal identity is something everyone faces and why do you even care how someone else is identifying themself?

    Quote Originally Posted by spoonitnow View Post
    You can research that yourself.
    Yes, but my answers aren't remotely relevant to clarifying what you said.
    I concede that I assumed that you were referring to a genealogical or otherwise scientific understanding of race.

    Quote Originally Posted by spoonitnow View Post
    On the topic of race being cultural, I largely disagree, but have no interest in discussing it.
    If not cultural, then what?

    If no interest, the why even bring it up?
    (whatever; troll)
  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by MadMojoMonkey View Post
    If it's all arbitrary lines in the sand, anyway, then doesn't that imply that if you even care, you're just being pretentious?

    I don't understand how you expect to get any coherent discussion when you offer only the most bare and faint hint of a definition of what you want to discuss.

    At any rate, the struggle for personal identity is something everyone faces and why do you even care how someone else is identifying themself?
    Do this: the next time you think I've done something wrong, assume instead that you've misread the situation.

    If you would like to continue, reread the OP. I referenced two popular items in current topics and asked a question regarding them. Any definition of race I may have is irrelevant, and I only provided mine because you asked.
  14. #14
    MadMojoMonkey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    If you would like to continue, reread the OP. I referenced two popular items in current topics and asked a question regarding them. Any definition of race I may have is irrelevant, and I only provided mine because you asked.
    I haven't assumed you've done anything wrong. I'm trying to understand what your question is. You said 2 words which appear in popular topics, but those words have many definitions and uses, depending on who is using them and in what context.

    I can't answer your question until I know what it is, which means I need to know what you mean by the specific words you're using. I gave a direct example of why it's not a cut and dry thing to assume about someone - how they perceive race, that is.

    I lament that under such a loose definition of race as you provided, there is little reason to take a stand and say that someone is doing it incorrectly.

    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    Do this: the next time you think I've done something wrong, assume instead that you've misread the situation.
    Take your own advice, bro.
  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by MadMojoMonkey View Post
    I lament that under such a loose definition of race as you provided, there is little reason to take a stand and say that someone is doing it incorrectly.
    My definition is irrelevant. I am asking for others' opinions in the context of how they view the issues themselves.
  16. #16
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    /thread
  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by JKDS View Post
    /thread
    correctamundo
  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    My definition is irrelevant. I am asking for others' opinions in the context of how they view the issues themselves.
    Sometimes MMM tools threads up. Sometimes I do.

    In this thread it is you; you're being a tool.
  19. #19
    spoonitnow's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    Let's say you were born a male (you got the sex parts and the chromosomes) yet you have elements of a female brain. Even if you want to identify as a female, you're still not exactly a female.

    The same is true of race. You can be born Irish, but maybe you were raised in a black household in Mississippi and you "think like a black Mississippian."

    In our society, it seems it is okay for the former to choose what to be called while it is not okay for the latter. I can't square this circle.
    Let me break this down in as simple and easy to understand terms as I can for anyone who wants to know the facts of the situation and why it's a difficult scenario to work with.

    1. Your first paragraph here describes someone who is transexual. Put briefly if slightly imprecisely, it's when the brain and the genitals are not of the same sex. The brains of men and women have several very distinct differences. All of this has been proven to the point that any debate at this point speaks to ignorance of the research.

    2. Transgender means someone identifies as the opposite gender from the one their genitals would suggest they have. This necessarily means that all transexuals are transgendered, but not all of those who are transgendered are necessarily transexual.

    3. It's difficult, but possible, to prove someone is transexual through analysis of their brain. This would also prove they are transgendered, as explained above. However, if someone is transgendered but was proven not to be transexual, there is currently no way to prove it.

    4. The underlined in (3) illustrates why it's important in this discussion to distinguish between transexuals and non-transexual, transgendered individuals.

    5. Race has been proven to have a genetic basis, though it's not very PC to note that this is the case because a majority of what we think of as race is cultural.

    6. There is no scenario where someone's body and mind have different races in a situation that's analogous to transexuals.

    7. Transracial refers to someone who identifies as a race other than their biological race.

    8. There is no way to prove someone is "really" transracial in the same way that there's no way to prove someone is "really" transgendered if they are not transexual.

    So here's your answer: Some people can be proven to be transgendered, but no one can be proven to be transracial.

    /thread
  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by spoonitnow View Post
    Let me break this down in as simple and easy to understand terms as I can for anyone who wants to know the facts of the situation and why it's a difficult scenario to work with.

    1. Your first paragraph here describes someone who is transexual. Put briefly if slightly imprecisely, it's when the brain and the genitals are not of the same sex. The brains of men and women have several very distinct differences. All of this has been proven to the point that any debate at this point speaks to ignorance of the research.

    2. Transgender means someone identifies as the opposite gender from the one their genitals would suggest they have. This necessarily means that all transexuals are transgendered, but not all of those who are transgendered are necessarily transexual.

    3. It's difficult, but possible, to prove someone is transexual through analysis of their brain. This would also prove they are transgendered, as explained above. However, if someone is transgendered but was proven not to be transexual, there is currently no way to prove it.

    4. The underlined in (3) illustrates why it's important in this discussion to distinguish between transexuals and non-transexual, transgendered individuals.

    5. Race has been proven to have a genetic basis, though it's not very PC to note that this is the case because a majority of what we think of as race is cultural.

    6. There is no scenario where someone's body and mind have different races in a situation that's analogous to transexuals.

    7. Transracial refers to someone who identifies as a race other than their biological race.

    8. There is no way to prove someone is "really" transracial in the same way that there's no way to prove someone is "really" transgendered if they are not transexual.

    So here's your answer: Some people can be proven to be transgendered, but no one can be proven to be transracial.

    /thread
    Good write up. This more or less satisfies what I was looking for. I can't make that great of an argument for why transracial should be treated the same as transgender, but some people think it should. Your argument is solid for why it shouldn't.
  21. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by boost View Post
    Sometimes MMM tools threads up. Sometimes I do.

    In this thread it is you; you're being a tool.
    You have blinders on with regards to me. It's to the point that I have the impression that ~50% of your posts are attacks on me.
  22. #22
    spoonitnow's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by spoonitnow View Post
    1. Your first paragraph here describes someone who is transexual. Put briefly if slightly imprecisely, it's when the brain and the genitals are not of the same sex. The brains of men and women have several very distinct differences. All of this has been proven to the point that any debate at this point speaks to ignorance of the research.

    2. Transgender means someone identifies as the opposite gender from the one their genitals would suggest they have. This necessarily means that all transexuals are transgendered, but not all of those who are transgendered are necessarily transexual.

    3. It's difficult, but possible, to prove someone is transexual through analysis of their brain. This would also prove they are transgendered, as explained above. However, if someone is transgendered but was proven not to be transexual, there is currently no way to prove it.

    4. The underlined in (3) illustrates why it's important in this discussion to distinguish between transexuals and non-transexual, transgendered individuals.
    I want to use this section of my explanation above to pivot to the issue of bathroom usage.

    Suppose that we allow transgendered people to use the bathroom that corresponds to the gender they identify with. This would effectively allow anyone to use either bathroom because it's impossible to prove that someone is not transgendered. If we don't allow it, then we have situations where someone who appears to be a man but who has a vagina, so this person has to use the women's bathroom, which results in pissing off women because they think there's a man in their bathroom. If we do allow it, then we have situations where men who look like men will use the women's bathroom, which results in the same problem.

    As a result, there is no enforceable solution to this if we maintain the gendered bathrooms.
  23. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by boost View Post
    Sometimes MMM tools threads up. Sometimes I do.

    In this thread it is you; you're being a tool.
    I'll save wuf.

    So what are we talking about? Transracial? I've just done a whole three minutes of research and it seems that the word "transracial" can be used perfectly legitimately to describe "someone raised in a culture or race different from their own", to give one random googled definition.

    I see no reason why someone cannot be proven to be transracial. An image of a white kid asking his black Mommy if he's adopted springs to mind.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  24. #24
    inb4 /thread
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  25. #25
    Oh right spoon says race isn't cultural, it's genetic.

    News flash - its both.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  26. #26
    spoonitnow's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OngBonga View Post
    Oh right spoon says race isn't cultural, it's genetic.

    News flash - its both.
    5. Race has been proven to have a genetic basis, though it's not very PC to note that this is the case because a majority of what we think of as race is cultural.
    I just said that.
  27. #27
    a500lbgorilla's Avatar
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    Race has a genetic basis in that the classic races are separated by apparent phenotypes. These differences, as well as those unseen, amount to quirky adaptations to the environment - sickle cell to resist malaria or lactose-tolerance to maximize the boon of domesticating cattle. But these differences don't amount to much. Remember, a child can be born tomorrow with malaria-resistance and lactose-tolerance.
    Last edited by a500lbgorilla; 04-14-2016 at 06:41 PM.
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  28. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by spoonitnow View Post
    I want to use this section of my explanation above to pivot to the issue of bathroom usage.

    Suppose that we allow transgendered people to use the bathroom that corresponds to the gender they identify with. This would effectively allow anyone to use either bathroom because it's impossible to prove that someone is not transgendered. If we don't allow it, then we have situations where someone who appears to be a man but who has a vagina, so this person has to use the women's bathroom, which results in pissing off women because they think there's a man in their bathroom. If we do allow it, then we have situations where men who look like men will use the women's bathroom, which results in the same problem.

    As a result, there is no enforceable solution to this if we maintain the gendered bathrooms.
    It's funny that some countries mostly have unisex toilets and there is no issue at all.
  29. #29
    spoonitnow's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ImSavy View Post
    It's funny that some countries mostly have unisex toilets and there is no issue at all.
    That's what I'm in favor of, and it's also the only solution I see to this issue.
  30. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by spoonitnow View Post
    That's what I'm in favor of, and it's also the only solution I see to this issue.
    Seems the logical thing really.

    I also came across a stat (may be bullshit but makes sense) on twitter that the vast majority of attacks that happen in toilets are in women's toilets where it's women attacking men who have transitioned/are transitioning. The opposite doesn't really happen. It's just a somewhat irrational fear some people have that this will lead to men going into bathrooms to perv on women which isn't really valid & would be even less valid if toilets were mixed in the first place.

    I think a more interesting, harder to answer, and relevant issue is how this effects prisons.
  31. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    You have blinders on with regards to me. It's to the point that I have the impression that ~50% of your posts are attacks on me.
    I think you're wrong sometimes, and sometimes I think your posting style is worthy of mockery.

    The same exact thing is true of MMM, and at roughly the same rate.

    If you can't see that this is true and see what follows from this truth, possibly it's you that's got the blinders on.



    If you still feel but hurt, I'll critique your exchange with MMM since you obviously are having trouble seeing my post as anything but a personal affront.

    You started a conversation which MMM joined in. MMM's style (at least in this exchange) is to establish first principles as to ensure everyone is on the same page and the discussion doesn't bare false fruit. This apparently isn't your preferred style (at least in this exchange) and instead of simply saying as much, you attempted to paint MMM's contribution to the discussion as invalid.

    Also, while I've got my feet on the constructive criticism stump-- playing the victim is unbecoming. Even if I do have an extreme bias against you, to think that this precludes me from offering valuable criticism is asinine.
  32. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by spoonitnow View Post
    I just said that.
    And I said I'd tool the thread up.

    Sorry, I was feigning interest. I saw you say "On the topic of race being cultural, I largely disagree, but have no interest in discussing it" and felt like trying to bait you into discussing it. I guess I failed, four words slapping me down doesn't really count as "discussion".
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  33. #33
    chardrian's Avatar
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  34. #34
    a500lbgorilla's Avatar
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    How do you mean, charbrian?
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  35. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by boost View Post
    You started a conversation which MMM joined in. MMM's style (at least in this exchange) is to establish first principles as to ensure everyone is on the same page and the discussion doesn't bare false fruit. This apparently isn't your preferred style (at least in this exchange) and instead of simply saying as much, you attempted to paint MMM's contribution to the discussion as invalid.
    He asked, I answered. He didn't like the answer and misunderstood the OP. I'll repeat for the third time that my definition of race is irrelevant and this is clearly the case in the OP.

    Also, while I've got my feet on the constructive criticism stump-- playing the victim is unbecoming. Even if I do have an extreme bias against you, to think that this precludes me from offering valuable criticism is asinine.
    You offered no critique until just now. You can choose to consider what I said or you can continue to try to discredit me as you have done.
  36. #36
    spoonitnow's Avatar
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    /circlejerk
  37. #37
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    Idk of wuf believes what he's been saying for the past year, or if he's just committed to a "debate style" of posting where you deny and obfuscate bad points and put all the good ones in the best frame...without consideration for truth
  38. #38
    spoonitnow's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MadMojoMonkey View Post
    At any rate, the struggle for personal identity is something everyone faces and why do you even care how someone else is identifying themself?
    This question got lost in the hoopla, but it affects other people because it affects government policy and emerging industries as well as changes to current industries. It probably affects society in general in a number of other ways as well, but you get the point.

    The current model for oppression (ala SJW) isn't compatible with transracial individuals either unless we make transracial an oppressed class, and that's really interesting in and of itself.
    Last edited by spoonitnow; 04-15-2016 at 09:56 PM.
  39. #39
    Quote Originally Posted by JKDS View Post
    Idk of wuf believes what he's been saying for the past year, or if he's just committed to a "debate style" of posting where you deny and obfuscate bad points and put all the good ones in the best frame...without consideration for truth
    Examples?

    Two things: (1) Taking me to task can be a task because I typically cover my bases and can argue my points well. It isn't enough for somebody to see something wrong with my points, but they have to beat them through their arguments. When they do, I concede and gladly state that I concede. I don't argue things I believe to be false and I argue things I believe to be true with tenaciousness. I imagine arguing with me can be quite frustrating because of some of the tactics I use, but they are legitimate (examples include things like framing my argument so that it's on offense and appropriation of quality elements of the counter-party that can fit into my argument). I never knowingly obfuscate or ignore facts/veracity.

    (2) I trolled once. It was to an ex whom I wanted to stop bugging me. She thinks I'm a Nazi now.
    Last edited by wufwugy; 04-16-2016 at 03:16 PM.
  40. #40
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    He asked, I answered. He didn't like the answer and misunderstood the OP. I'll repeat for the third time that my definition of race is <em>irrelevant</em> and this is <em>clear</em><em>ly </em>the case in the OP.
    Far too many potentially productive conversations never pay off because people refuse to humour their peers attempts to lay a foundation. &nbsp;Essentially you are saying that you know it to be the case that the framework being set up by MMM could not possibly in any way bare fruit. &nbsp;If this is not the case, I'm open to hearing how that's not what was meant to be inferred from your end of the exchange and further how it is reasonable that that wouldn't be the takeaway.

    If this is the case, and if you are indeed interested in making headway towards the truth in these discussions, I think you should put into question the way you navigate them in such a rigid unyielding manner.



    You offered no critique until just now. You can choose to consider what I said or you can continue to try to discredit me as you have done.
    Sometimes I don't have time to, or am not sure how to articulate the gripe I have, but I can mention that gripe and it doubles as a place holder and also an opportunity for you (or whoever) to dig into it. In this case, you seem to think my gripe was baseless, and in saying so I'm able to revisit it and have another shot at expressing it in a more robust and articulate way. Feel free to critique this approach.
    Last edited by boost; 04-16-2016 at 06:58 PM.
  41. #41
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    Examples?

    Two things: (1) Taking me to task can be a task because I typically cover my bases and can argue my points well. It isn't enough for somebody to see something wrong with my points, but they have to beat them through their arguments. When they do, I concede and gladly state that I concede. I don't argue things I believe to be false and I argue things I believe to be true with tenaciousness. I imagine arguing with me can be quite frustrating because of some of the tactics I use, but they are legitimate (examples include things like framing my argument so that it's on offense and appropriation of quality elements of the counter-party that can fit into my argument). I never knowingly obfuscate or ignore facts/veracity.
    If you feel that you use tactics which are frustrating to the people you are having a discussion with, don't you think you're leaving a ton of truth value on the table?


    (2) I trolled once. It was to an ex whom I wanted to stop bugging me. She thinks I'm a Nazi now.
    haha, this is awesome.
  42. #42
    Quote Originally Posted by boost View Post
    If you feel that you use tactics which are frustrating to the people you are having a discussion with, don't you think you're leaving a ton of truth value on the table?
    I think what I mean to say is that when something moves from discussion to debate, I more or less charge forward. I really enjoy argumentation, but I acknowledge that others may not enjoy it as much and can find it frustrating. I'll acknowledge that I probably turn things into debates more often than they should. I probably do that because to me everything is just a debate waiting to happen. Also, I deeply value debate because it has been one of the most important knowledge and character developers of my life. For example, back when I was still pseudo-Christian, I had some epic debates with some atheists, which I consider them having won and I subsequently incorporated their views into my life.
  43. #43
    Quote Originally Posted by boost View Post
    Far too many potentially productive conversations never pay off because people refuse to humour their peers attempts to lay a foundation. &nbsp;Essentially you are saying that you know it to be the case that the framework being set up by MMM could not possibly in any way bare fruit. &nbsp;If this is not the case, I'm open to hearing how that's not what was meant to be inferred from your end of the exchange and further how it is reasonable that that wouldn't be the takeaway.

    If this is the case, and if you are indeed interested in making headway towards the truth in these discussions, I think you should put into question the way you navigate them in such a rigid unyielding manner.
    I think this has all been a misunderstanding. The OP references "transracial" as it fits in the social narrative, which means things like Rachel Dolezal being a white woman who calls herself black. MMM then asked me for my definition. I wasn't sure why he did, but I provided it because I figured he wanted to go somewhere with it. Then he said the OP was unanswerable based on my definition. I pointed out that the OP question has nothing to do with my definition.

    I don't know what else I could have said about it. I recognize that my persona on this forum tends to not get the "ah okay" or "that makes sense" kind of responses and instead tends to get the "wrong, as usual" type of response.
  44. #44
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    I think this has all been a misunderstanding. The OP references "transracial" as it fits in the social narrative, which means things like Rachel Dolezal being a white woman who calls herself black. MMM then asked me for my definition. I wasn't sure why he did, but I provided it because I figured he wanted to go somewhere with it. Then he said the OP was unanswerable based on my definition. I pointed out that the OP question has nothing to do with my definition.

    I don't know what else I could have said about it. I recognize that my persona on this forum tends to not get the "ah okay" or "that makes sense" kind of responses and instead tends to get the "wrong, as usual" type of response.
    This post is awesome. Your understanding of the unfolding of events is very clearly laid out, and as you see it, I can fully understand where your posts came from. I do think that with a little more benefit of doubt this could have all been avoided, but once things deteriorate in this way, it's posts like this one you've just made that help us get out of the weeds.

    How I read MMM's questioning was more of "how are we defining race" and he was offering you the initiative. In this light, maybe you can see how you come off as being needlessly dismissive and short towards MMM. And even if I'm wrong, if he was going off topic, don't you think you could highlight that fact while also leaving the door ajar for him to be tangential with what could be a very interesting, albeit slightly off topic, point?
  45. #45
    JKDS's Avatar
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    My problem with debate is that its geared towards winning. Not truth. Since I'm not representing someone in these discussions, it doesn't benefit me to take such a stance.

    It also doesnt seem well suited for questions that have multiple correct answers. For these discussions, I'm interested in expanding my understanding of the subject matter, and learning what others have to say about it. But if someone's views on an ambiguous topic are too concrete and self-assured, like in a debate, I cannot take them seriously. It'd be like if someone fervently defended life on other planets, discredited any evidence to the contrary, and interpreted any positive evidence in a rosy way. At that point, discussion ceases as it isnt worthwhile to continue.

    ***

    I encourage you to have debates though. I'd just prefer you warn us in advance. I assume, by default, that we're just discussing our views on this forum, and not strictly adhering to any particular viewpoint. If the presumption for a particular thread is instead that we are debating and purposefully sticking to a side, that assumption vanishes and I can treat the thread and argument in a different way...without criticizing techniques that are perfectly valid in the debate setting.
  46. #46
    Quote Originally Posted by JKDS View Post
    It also doesnt seem well suited for questions that have multiple correct answers. For these discussions, I'm interested in expanding my understanding of the subject matter, and learning what others have to say about it. But if someone's views on an ambiguous topic are too concrete and self-assured, like in a debate, I cannot take them seriously. It'd be like if someone fervently defended life on other planets, discredited any evidence to the contrary, and interpreted any positive evidence in a rosy way. At that point, discussion ceases as it isnt worthwhile to continue.
    Do you have an idea of a better way to do it?

    FWIW, I would view somebody who did as in your example -- ignoring evidence -- to be losing the debate.

    I encourage you to have debates though. I'd just prefer you warn us in advance. I assume, by default, that we're just discussing our views on this forum, and not strictly adhering to any particular viewpoint. If the presumption for a particular thread is instead that we are debating and purposefully sticking to a side, that assumption vanishes and I can treat the thread and argument in a different way...without criticizing techniques that are perfectly valid in the debate setting.
    I'll keep this in mind. It's definitely true.

    On a side note, I think it's accurate to say that my FTR persona is an extreme version of myself. I seldom debate anything outside of here and this is the only forum that I've been a part of over the years where I heavily gravitate towards debate. It's weird how these things develop.
  47. #47
    Yeah, this idea of our forum personas is a pretty cool space to look around in. Most of my interactions on this forum have been out in the open, but recently I've started to feel inclined to ask myself if something may be better handled privately, and proceed to send pm's accordingly. One thing is for sure, there's no real reason to puff up your chest when it's not a public exchange, and after reading your post, wuf, and looking back on some of these private exchanges, in them I feel like I've been talking to the persons, when I have been mostly interacting with the personas for all these years.

    That's kind of just a stream of consciousness, but maybe something actionable to take from it is: it's fairly easy to shift your forum persona-- you can even change your avatar to help distance the new you from the old you, and in the extreme you could make a new account. It is, no doubt, much hard to do this in real life, yet the relative ease with which we can do it here (should we see fit to do so) can work as a sort of rough model for accomplishing a similar transformation in the real world. I don't mean in a disingenuous way, like some sort of con artist, but I mean real self improvement.

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