Operation: Move back up to 25NL

[Sasquach991]

Not doing too well since the heater.

[Sasquach991]

So I was getting kinda tilty over this latest downswing and looked at some old graphs that 6-maxers post monthly and I saw that big downswings are sometimes normal so I'm not sweating it.

I also withdrew $200 and gave it to my wife as a bonus present for her birthday so she and my daughter could go out of town. She never gives me a hard time about playing and never asks me if I'm winning or losing. When I told her I never have to deposit money, she didn't care how much I play.

So I'm back to about $300 again. So I have to grind it back up again to try to reach 25NL. Meh. It'll only make me better.

It's actually a good thing I didn't reach $750 and then hit a downswing as soon as I moved up to 25NL.

I reviewed alot of HH's recently and compared it to when I was on the heater and I found some leaks. I would get cold cards forever then finally get AA, KK, QQ. I would value bet the calling stations like crazy. The river would complete a possible str8, flush, etc for villian and the usually passive station would shove and I would call and always lose. Last night I would fold to any aggro bet from a passive player and I ended up +4 BIs for the night with my biggest loss at a $3.50 post.

[Jason]

When you look back @ your upswing, do you feel like most of it was from good play and getting it in with the best and holding up? Do you look @ your downswing and remember many good hands not holding up? It's a little disconcerting that the upswing seems so much more choppy and inconsistent than the downswing. Fortunately, both occur over a relatively small hand volume, but consistently monitoring your decision process is key I think. The graph only maps what has happened. As poker players, I feel like we should already have a good idea of what is really happening without the graph. Your last paragraph suggests you are actively looking at those types of things, so that's good. From here forward, try to keep a better pulse as you go. You should still do reviews, but also still be in the moment if that makes sense.

[Sasquach991]

When you look back @ your upswing, do you feel like most of it was from good play and getting it in with the best and holding up? Do you look @ your downswing and remember many good hands not holding up?...

Upswing- I felt I was playing well and getting it in with the best and hold up for the most part. When I would lose it did bother me as much as the other hands where I got it in good and won overshadowed the loss.

Downswing- I remember many good hands not holding up. But I remember playing good hands that may not be the best hands. I would hit a top set on the river (after valuebetting) which also 3 suited the board so I bet, get shoved and call. There were many times where I hit top str8 which was also a flushy board.

The hardest thing to get a grasp of was how I could be up 27 BIs in one week and the next week I had lost all but about 7 BIs. I claimed I would never play again about 5 times after several sessions.

I'm also trying harder and harder to work on ranges. M2M really hit me between the eyes on that one and he is absolutely right.

Something I have picked up recently was in a GS video about raising donk bets. I think is was in one of jyms vids.

This hand from a 50/4/1.5 screamed set to me or maybe some stupid ass 57 crap and was afraid I was on a FD. He could have even limped with AA/KK/QQ. Usually when he limped with big pp, he would limp raise so I doubt that. He may have even had 9x but I didn't want to know that bad.

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.10 BB (6 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

Button ($24.40)
SB ($9.60)
BB ($10)
UTG ($11.25)
MP ($7.15)
Hero (CO) ($22.55)

Preflop: Hero is CO with J, J
1 fold, MP calls $0.10, Hero bets $0.50, 3 folds, MP calls $0.40

Flop: ($1.15) 6, 8, 9 (2 players)
MP checks, Hero bets $0.80, MP calls $0.80

Turn: ($2.75) 4 (2 players)
MP bets $4.10, Hero folds

Total pot: $2.75 | Rake: $0.10

[Jason]

Another point to consider is coolers. During your upswing, you could get the money in good with your AA versus KK and your KK versus QQ and so on. You got it in good, but the villain can't be faulted for paying you off. Also don't forget that a great deal of money is made and lost I believe in seemingly mundane pots like ones where no one flops anything, blind steals, and the like.

As for donk bets, I like to raise them as well, because they are by and large usually weak. If you have a genuinely strong hand, why not let the pre-flop raiser put money in the pot and either continue to call and not fully reveal the strength of your hand or check raise and get even more money than a simple bet would achieve? I like to see showdowns with donk bets when I can because they are USUALLY very reliable tells in that donk bets by villains tend to consistently reveal the same thing. If a villain donks out and they are strong, they will tend to always be strong when they donk bet. If they are weak, they will always tend to be weak.

[Sasquach991]

... Also don't forget that a great deal of money is made and lost I believe in seemingly mundane pots like ones where no one flops anything, blind steals, and the like.

I've been trying to do this more lately. Previously I would try to steal, hit part of the flop, cbet, get called, then lose in a showdown I never should have been in. I still cbet some, but I will now give up on hands I shouldn't be in.

As for donk bets, I like to raise them as well, because they are by and large usually weak. If you have a genuinely strong hand, why not let the pre-flop raiser put money in the pot and either continue to call and not fully reveal the strength of your hand or check raise and get even more money than a simple bet would achieve? I like to see showdowns with donk bets when I can because they are USUALLY very reliable tells in that donk bets by villains tend to consistently reveal the same thing. If a villain donks out and they are strong, they will tend to always be strong when they donk bet. If they are weak, they will always tend to be weak.

Until last night I never saw a strong donk better. Made some notes.

Something else I've been doing lately is defending my big blinds a little better by raising up to two limpers and definitely one limper. I've also tightened my sb range up considerably. Any time I looked at my positional stats I would always be playing in the sb way too much with stats similar to co and btn.

Last night was another pretty good night. Up about 3.5 BIs

I've also slowed down my play considerably. I have always played fast tables but started using my time bank more for tough decisions. Slowing down also revealed many other outs I had that I didn't see before. I had been missing double gutshots. I didn't hit them but I did have odds to call and won a few with mp.

Another area I've been working on is when villian checks down to the river and then makes a pot size bet. Now I think some more before folding/raising/calling to see if it makes sense for villian to do this. I had been spewing a bit on the river with high card when villian would do this. I have stopped this. I do now call river sometimes with mp when it looks like villian missed his draws and is trying to take down the pot.

[Sasquach991]

I just realized that if I had never made any withdrawals on my account, I'd have 33 BIs for 25NL.

If I hadn't made the first withdrawal in May I would have had almost $1k when I went on my most recent heater.

No more withdrawals. I don't care whose B'day it is or how tilty I get.

[Jason]

Yeah, I haven't made any withdrawals yet for that reason. I just think for micro and small stakes that the dollar amount of the withdraw just doesn't outweight the potential future profits that money could be used to move up in stakes with. I also think it's important that the bulk of the money you've used to move up is from beating the previous stakes. So, in your situation, make sure your NET winnings from $10NL is at least $300. If the bulk of it is actually from $5NL or smaller, it doesn't mean you're necessarily ready to move up.

Also, just to argue the other side. Some players and coaches have sung the virtues of withdrawing money. They cite that poker is meant to be fun AND to make money, and that if you're never withdrawing money and using it, you're never rewarding yourself, which can be bad for your overall game. I've heard more than one player say that by withdrawing money and using it to buy something nice to enjoy, that it helps renew their enthusiasm for the game. If they have a tough day at the table, they remember that purchase they made and that it's worth the struggle.

[Sasquach991]

I have made at least $300 at 10NL. Probably close to $360 or even more.

I think I've made almost as much at 5NL with less than half the hands.

I'll have to check that later today.

[WeaselT]

is your SN on stars the same? i think ive been runnin into u on the 10$ tables.

[Sasquach991]

is your SN on stars the same? i think ive been runnin into u on the 10$ tables.

Yes. What's yours?

[WeaselT]

WeaselTeets
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y8Kyi0WNg40

[Sasquach991]

BR is at $370 and I'm half way to clearing my $50 bonus.

I decided to play a single table at 100% vpip again. This time I told all of the villians I was doing this. It's harder to win but very entertaining and will definitely force you to think ranges. I think I'll do this once a month.

[Sasquach991]

Month is going pretty good so far.

Up 10 BIs and cleared $50 bonus.

BR once again at about $500

[Sasquach991]

Last night was a good learning experience for me. I started off running bad.

AA<KK-Thanks to WeaselT
AA<63s- Thanks 45/4/3 villian
And one more that I can't remember.

I was down 3 BIs in about 20 minutes at the same table.
I did not tilt. I wouldn't allow myself to tilt. I stayed at the table without thinking "I'm gonna get my money back from you donk". I played my same game and by the end of the session I had recovered all but about $6 at the above table AND managed to win a couple of BIs at other tables.

[Sasquach991]

Still having a pretty good month so far. I'm folding alot and playing as a 16/12/4 at 6max.

BR at $550

[dranger7070]

Good shit, keep it up and get ur ass up to 25nl!

[Sasquach991]

Thanks dranger.

Still running good.

BR at $600. Getting closer to 25NL

I am finally learning to fold AA and not calling a shove with TP without a good reason..
I still can't fold with a set or better.

[Sasquach991]

According to pokertableratings I'm "Steady Eddie" and "4X Runner Runner".

The latter is definitely true. I've been tilting many villians by hitting runner runner but only because they are slowplaying their big hands.

[dranger7070]

I wouldnt worry about folding a set or better ever at sub 200nl tbqh.

[Sasquach991]

Still running pretty good.

BR up to $640.

Probably the most steady month I've ever had.

Usually I start running good and think "I'm good at this game" and start bluffing calling stations and calling big bets by passive players instead of just folding. I put a couple of stickys on my monitor that say "FOLD?", "Don't Call Shove with TP", "PLAN YOUR HAND" .

[Sasquach991]

Had a bit of a "downswing". Actually it was more of a break even period. Usually I tilt during this period and have a huge "cooler". What I would normally consider a "cooler" appears to be more getting cold cards forever, then finally getting cards and refusing to fold when I know I'm beat. I folded more this time around and it ended up being a break even period with a slight downswing.

Lesson learned...

BR at ~$680

[Sasquach991]

November was kind to me.

BR at $702

Closest I've ever been to 25NL

[Sasquach991]

Withdrew my entire $700 BR on PS and will deposit it to FTP for the $600 bonus and signed up for RB through spoon. Gonna take a few days to get the PS money so I'll use play money at FTP to get used to the new interface.

[Sasquach991]

While waiting for my PS check to arrive I decided to do some things that will be +EV for my game. I'm getting sick of playing for play money on FTP.

I thought about using a credit card to go ahead and deposit to FTP and then pay it off when I get the check. Then I though the break may do me some good. Then I though I might forget how to play in the manner of which I was playing while on the break.

In the mean time here's what I'll do:

Review HHs from November where I won or lost >5bb
Watch GS videos
Read the BC Digest

Any other suggestions?

[Jason]

Not much more you can do than what you've outlined.

Just curious, though, have you planned out all the steps to play on FullTilt in terms of stakes to play, number of tables, and time to clear the bonus? Do you know if the games are softer or harder? The reason I ask is that I am in a similar situation about to try deposit for the first time and just today in fact, I asked about all those details. If you're staying @ $10NL, it may be hard to clear. In fact, it might be hard @ $25NL for that matter. I'm already sweating whatever time it will take @ $100NL or $50NL.

Anyway, congratulations either way on the being close to $25NL. It looks like your game has come a long way and you stuck with it during the tough times.

If you'd rather not clutter your operation with a discussion of Full Tilt bonus clearing, feel free to go to the post I started.

[Sasquach991]

Not much more you can do than what you've outlined.

Just curious, though, have you planned out all the steps to play on FullTilt in terms of stakes to play, number of tables, and time to clear the bonus? Do you know if the games are softer or harder? The reason I ask is that I am in a similar situation about to try deposit for the first time and just today in fact, I asked about all those details. If you're staying @ $10NL, it may be hard to clear. In fact, it might be hard @ $25NL for that matter. I'm already sweating whatever time it will take @ $100NL or $50NL.

Anyway, congratulations either way on the being close to $25NL. It looks like your game has come a long way and you stuck with it during the tough times.

If you'd rather not clutter your operation with a discussion of Full Tilt bonus clearing, feel free to go to the post I started.

I plan to play 10NL until my BR is at least at $750. Plus this will give me a chance to get used to playing on FTP. Then I wil take a full shot at 25NL. I will drop back down to 10NL at $350. That will give me >16 BIs to work with. I plan to remain at FTP until I clear the bonus and then move back to PS. I dont know how long it will take but I expect it to take a while. If they don't have a bonus at PS by the time I clear the FTP bonus then I will wait for one.

I'm definitely not in any hurry for anything. Getting impatient has hindered my progress in the past. I tried to keep up with m2m and dranger and spewed like hell.

I don't know anything about FTP but I'm sure it has the same ratio of bad players as PS. I'll be very selective on tables and go from there.

[Jason]

I agree that it's good not to be in a hurry, but don't you worry that you may not give yourself a reasonable opportunity to clear it because it must be cleared in 120 days and whatever isn't gets lost?

[Sasquach991]

I agree that it's good not to be in a hurry, but don't you worry that you may not give yourself a reasonable opportunity to clear it because it must be cleared in 120 days and whatever isn't gets lost?

I play 10NL hands with avg pot of >$1. Assume all pots are $1
Rake at FTP is $0.15/dollar at 10NL with no rake if there's no flop
Bonus is one point/(dollar of rake)
It will take 6.6 hands for every dollar of rake.
Bonus is $0.06/point and you get one point per dollar of rake
So I get $0.06/(dollar of rake)
So every 6.6 hands I get $0.06 or 110 hands/dollar
It will take me 66k hands to get my $600 bonus at FTP. I have 4 months to play 66k hands or 16,500 hands per month. If only half the hands see a flop then I need 33k hands per month. That's why table selection is so critical.

At 25NL I only need 5 hands per dollar of rake so I need 83 hands per dollar. So I'll need about 50k hands

At 50NL rake is $1/dollar with max at $3 so for every $3 raked pot you get $0.18 and you will only need 3333 hands to get your $600.

[Sasquach991]

So I got tired of playing with playmoney at FTP so I deposited $40 at PS tonight and played some 5NL for awhile.

Up 7.5 BIs. Whatever's left in the PS account after I get my PS check, I'll withdraw it and deposit it to FTP. I may leave some there so I can play in the FTR300 on PS when it comes up again.

[dranger7070]

Suggestion: GOGOGOOGOGOGOOGOGOGOGO

FUCKING GET SOME! Please hurry up and move up and rape that 25nl ass. EZ FUCKING GAME!!!

Congrats on the good month man, go pwn bitches at FTP, see you back at stars sometime.

[daven]

I play 10NL hands with avg pot of >$1.

remember that only the raked pot is relevant. I;m not sure if your average is contested or not, e.g. if I complete the sb and you check we go to the flop with$0.20, then i lead out for $0.80 and you fold. Is this a 20cent or $1 pot? regardless, the rake is only on the 20cents.

Also, i've just moved down to 10nl and I'm 12-15 tabling on FT, pm me your screen-name. I'm davenigma. Yesterday I decided to donk around playing high vpip/station burning money. Today the grind has started. Come to FR and play some hands, or I'll hunt you out at 6-max

[Sasquach991]

I play 10NL hands with avg pot of >$1.

remember that only the raked pot is relevant. I;m not sure if your average is contested or not, e.g. if I complete the sb and you check we go to the flop with$0.20, then i lead out for $0.80 and you fold. Is this a 20cent or $1 pot? regardless, the rake is only on the 20cents.

Also, i've just moved down to 10nl and I'm 12-15 tabling on FT, pm me your screen-name. I'm davenigma. Yesterday I decided to donk around playing high vpip/station burning money. Today the grind has started. Come to FR and play some hands, or I'll hunt you out at 6-max

When I table select I choose tables with and average pot of >$1. That's where I came up with this number. I guess I'm assuming this will not change when I'm at the table.

Still waiting for my PS check to arrive so I can deposit it to FTP. Looks like max deposit is $600 so I'll have to make 2 deposits. One for $600 and one for $100 plus my profits playing 5NL at PS while waiting (currently at $60).

[Jason]

I don't know if you know or how you're planning to deposit, but just for your awareness, if you are using eChecks for the first time on FullTilt, you can only do a MAX $100 deposit initially and must wait 7 days for it to clear with no issues before you can do more. Fortunately, the 2nd deposit will count towards your full $600 deposit, however, the clock to clear the bonus starts ticking as soon as you deposit - they don't give you an extra 7 days or additional 120 days after the 2nd deposit. It's just another piece of the puzzle to keep in mind while you're doing this. Unless you have other deposit methods or some connections to do player cash transfers, you'll probably end up playing $10NL or gambling with 4 buy-ins @ $25NL for a week until you can pad the roll. Good luck.

[Sasquach991]

I don't know if you know or how you're planning to deposit, but just for your awareness, if you are using eChecks for the first time on FullTilt, you can only do a MAX $100 deposit initially and must wait 7 days for it to clear with no issues before you can do more. Fortunately, the 2nd deposit will count towards your full $600 deposit, however, the clock to clear the bonus starts ticking as soon as you deposit - they don't give you an extra 7 days or additional 120 days after the 2nd deposit. ...

This I did not know. I've sent FTP and email regarding this. I was planning on doing the echeck thing but may have to do the debit card thing if that's faster.

[Jason]

Hrm, good luck with the debit card but I would be REALLY surprised if you could get any debit card to work from the United States. BUT, I am rooting for you and if you are able to get one to work, let us know the details of the card like bank, issuer, or whatever pertinent details so we can all get one

[Schya]

Like 2 weeks ago i used my debit visa card for a deposit worked fast and easy. GL

[Sasquach991]

Like 2 weeks ago i used my debit visa card for a deposit worked fast and easy. GL

I think I'll try the echeck first to see if there is a first deposit limit. According to Jason there is. Then I'll try the debit card. Hopefully one of these will allow me to deposit the full amount.

Now if PS would send me my effin check

[Sasquach991]

Finally got the PS check after 11 days. I found out that if you do not deposit via echeck for 6 months then you have no choice but a paper check to cashout.

Decided to try using visa to make deposit at FTP as it's not limited on first deposit like echeck is. Took about 10 minutes to get approved. So FTP BR is at $600. I still have $100 to deposit whenever that's allowed. I also have $100 on PS that I will withdraw to add to the FTP BR.

Played about 50 hands at 10NL to get HEM setup correctly then dived into 25NL with 2 tables. When I got confortable I added 2 more tables. I was up 2.5BIs at one point then spewed a bit with TP and ended up one BI for the session. Made about $8 towards the bonus and the rakeback will be nice once it starts rolling in. I'll probably play 3 tables til I get more confortable at FTP.

FTP does not offer as many good tables at PS but there are still plenty to chose from. The waiting lists for the really good tables are much longer. I'm going to play 25NL essentially the same way I played 10NL except for playing 3 tables. I have noticed more 3betting already.

I believe this OP is over and I'll probably start another one for 25NL and beyond. Thanks for all the help from everyone at FTR. Thanks especially to Jason who kept reminding me constantly about BRM and making think.

Hopefully I can stay at 25NL but if the BR gets below about $450 I WILL drop back down to 10NL. That will give me 14 BIs.