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NL10 Calling 3bet oop with AKs

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  1. #1

    Event NL10 Calling 3bet oop with AKs

    Is it better to 4bet this hand preflop? I have only a few villain hands.
    What's your std play in this typical spot preflop when you don't have info?

    as played postflop....what do you suggest??







    Poker Stars, $0.05/$0.10 No Limit Hold'em Cash, 8 Players

    SB: $8.33 (83.3 bb)
    BB: $8.68 (86.8 bb)
    Hero (UTG+2): $10 (100 bb)
    MP1: $11.07 (110.7 bb)
    MP2: $11.18 (111.8 bb)
    MP3: $12.24 (122.4 bb)
    CO: $10 (100 bb)
    BTN: $10 (100 bb)

    Preflop: Hero is UTG+2 with K A
    Hero raises to $0.30, 2 folds, MP3 raises to $0.90, 4 folds, Hero calls $0.60

    Flop: ($1.95) 5 K 6 (2 players)
    Hero checks, MP3 bets $1.10, Hero calls $1.10

    Turn: ($4.15) 3 (2 players)
    Hero checks, MP3 bets $2.90, Hero calls $2.90

    River: ($9.95) 7 (2 players)
    Hero checks, MP3 bets $7.34 and is all-in, Hero ?
  2. #2
    With AKs I would sometimes 4 bet and sometimes call a 3 bet, or even sometimes call an open raise with it just to mix up the play a little. I've learnt not to over value AK as it has gotten me into trouble so many times before. Preflop you played absolutely fine here. I'd be a little wary of the 3bet though as they can usually represent hands like AA and KK.

    Post flop I would have led out with a cbet instead of checking because of the flush draw that is there and it would also have given villain an opportunity to fold or to raise over the top of you which would let you know that you were probably beaten and you could have found it easier to throw the hand away not having invested so much of your stack in the pot. River for me is a fold here as well but a hard one tbh. I'd be annoyed folding it but would have to convince myself I was definately beat.
    Last edited by MrFerguson91; 06-09-2015 at 10:53 AM.
  3. #3
    MadMojoMonkey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MarinaD View Post
    Is it better to 4bet this hand preflop? I have only a few villain hands.
    You have 188 hands on Villain, and all those pretty colorful numbers and you can't congeal it into any read at all on Villain?

    Honest, serious questions:
    Why do you use the numbers?
    What do they gain you?
    I'm not asking about people, in general. I'm asking about you.

    Quote Originally Posted by MarinaD View Post
    What's your std play in this typical spot preflop when you don't have info?
    I haven't found myself in a preflop spot without info since I was 8 years old.

    Does your Villain play poker? NLHE? Yes? Where is he playing?
    What does that tell you?
    Bang! There's a read.

    Does your Villain have chips? Yes? How many?
    What does that tell you?
    Bang! There's another.

    I never even saw him dealt one card and already I have two solid pieces of information that can lead me to generalized reads. I will adjust as necessary.

    I refuse to start at 0. I refuse to let any aspiring poker player say they have "no info" on Villain and get away with it. I (perhaps over-zealously) see it as laziness, but I accept that it is more a knee-jerk reaction to not knowing where to start.

    Please forgive any assertive tone on my part.

    Quote Originally Posted by MarinaD View Post
    Is it better to 4bet this hand preflop? I have only a few villain hands.
    What's your std play in this typical spot preflop when you don't have info?
    There is no way to answer if it's better to 4-bet PRE w/o any context at all. I am not trying to be harsh. I just want to clear the air of the notion that there is a "correct" play in poker. Unless you can see Villain's cards, there is no unquestionably correct play.

    That said, I generally treat AKs like KK+ PRE. If you get called by { JJ-, AKo } often enough, it easily justifies the times you run into KK+. ALSO, you'll be more likely to be called when you have KK+ if Villains know you will go full aggro PRE with AKs.

    However, if you have a strong read that - if you raise, then it allows Villain to play perfectly against you - then you must NOT raise.

    Again. There is no 'standard' play. If you treat the game of poker as though you only need to learn a set of rules and you will win, then you will not win. Maybe you can crush the micros with that method, but eventually you will face creative and intelligent Villains who will see right through your 'standard routine.'

    Quote Originally Posted by MarinaD View Post
    as played postflop....what do you suggest??
    OTF: I'm happy to get it in. I think a x/r is a fine play, but I don't mind donking into the pre-flop raiser, either. I would estimate which has a more likely chance to get more of Villain's chips into the pot and make that play.

    OTT or OTR: If villain continued past the flop then the runout smacks the low portion of his range. Straights get there, flushes get there, lots of 2-pair combos that will continue OTF get there. Even taking into account Villain's 3-bet from HJ PRE, which significantly reduces, if not eliminates, that low part of this range... even then... his continued aggression is saying he has a strong hand. What on that board is strong? You have TPTK... are you hoping for a chopped pot? Is any sensible Villain doing this with QQ-?

    I mean... if you honestly had no reads, then assuming sensibility in Villains until you see otherwise is the safest course of action.

    I'm done with TPTK against a strong line and almost always folding OTR.

    All of this assumes a competent player on whom I have no fishy reads as pertains to over-valuing hands or running big bluffs OTR when he misses draws.
  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by MadMojoMonkey View Post
    You have 188 hands on Villain, and all those pretty colorful numbers and you can't congeal it into any read at all on Villain?

    Honest, serious questions:
    Why do you use the numbers?
    What do they gain you?
    I'm not asking about people, in general. I'm asking about you.
    No. To be honest, i can't congeal any read with these numbers. That's why i'm asking!
    I see he has a 3bet of 4 in 188 hands..... reliable? Don't think so.
    Does he have a 3bet bluffing range against EP with these data? I Don't know.
    So far i have ZERO info about his fold to 4bet.
    I have no data of his 3bet pot playing tendencies.


    BUT that's what i can look for in my very limited experience in NL10! I thought that if i'm missing something in my colorful numbers, someone with more experience could give me some extra imput.
    This is what a see at the table. What am i missing here?

    Quote Originally Posted by MadMojoMonkey View Post
    Does your Villain have chips? Yes? How many?
    What does that tell you?
    Bang! There's another.

    I never even saw him dealt one card and already I have two solid pieces of information that can lead me to generalized reads. I will adjust as necessary.

    I refuse to start at 0. I refuse to let any aspiring poker player say they have "no info" on Villain and get away with it. I (perhaps over-zealously) see it as laziness, but I accept that it is more a knee-jerk reaction to not knowing where to start.

    Please forgive any assertive tone on my part.
    So...that's your info?
    Quote Originally Posted by MadMojoMonkey View Post
    There is no way to answer if it's better to 4-bet PRE w/o any context at all.
    Next time i should say that i have no CONTEXT instead of no info.

    Please, i'm a begginer in NL10, if you are not gonna be helpful, i would appreciate to show your lack of sex somewhere else.

    Please forgive any assertive tone on my part.

    Quote Originally Posted by MrFerguson91 View Post
    With AKs I would sometimes 4 bet and sometimes call a 3 bet, or even sometimes call an open raise with it just to mix up the play a little. I've learnt not to over value AK as it has gotten me into trouble so many times before. Preflop you played absolutely fine here. I'd be a little wary of the 3bet though as they can usually represent hands like AA and KK.

    Post flop I would have led out with a cbet instead of checking because of the flush draw that is there and it would also have given villain an opportunity to fold or to raise over the top of you which would let you know that you were probably beaten and you could have found it easier to throw the hand away not having invested so much of your stack in the pot. River for me is a fold here as well but a hard one tbh. I'd be annoyed folding it but would have to convince myself I was definately beat.
    Thanks!!! I would never have thoght of leading out. I think that i'm afraid of that tendency of raising every donk bet, but i don't know if that applies in 3bet pots.
    Thanks again and sorry for my english!
  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by MarinaD View Post
    No. To be honest, i can't congeal any read with these numbers. That's why i'm asking!
    I see he has a 3bet of 4 in 188 hands..... reliable? Don't think so.
    Does he have a 3bet bluffing range against EP with these data? I Don't know.
    So far i have ZERO info about his fold to 4bet.
    I have no data of his 3bet pot playing tendencies.
    I think you are completely missing the point that MMM was making in his post and specifically about the "honest" questions.
    In order to use the numbers in your HUD you have to understand them , how they are calculated , what they represent and how you can use them to exploit an opponents weaknesses. Look at his vpip/pfr 13 10 this guy is a standard unthinking nit tag zombie probably playing 12+ tables of full ring. HIs 3bet is 4% which reinforces his nit tag zombie image and he may have got a disproportionate number of premium cards but you can be pretty confident that this guy is 3betting QQ+ AK+ with no 3bet bluffs since he's playing too many tables to actually get creative , his ranges are pretty static and he plays like an automaton.
    If you 4 bet him you likely face a continuing range of QQ+ which has you crushed 2:1 so you are more likely to be winning small pots and losing big pots. It will be worth you doing some EV calculations to get an understanding of the best move against different sorts of players .

    BUT that's what i can look for in my very limited experience in NL10! I thought that if i'm missing something in my colorful numbers, someone with more experience could give me some extra imput.
    This is what a see at the table. What am i missing here?
    WHat you are missing is understanding what the numbers on your HUD mean and how to use them to exploit your opponents and how to take population averages and use them to fill in some missing information. i.e nits typical ranges and after a few hands someone is shaping up to be a nit then you can infer his 3bet ranges and 4bet ranges , how he reacts to steals etc from your past experience of how the population reacts at that stake.
    Please, i'm a begginer in NL10, if you are not gonna be helpful, i would appreciate to show your lack of sex somewhere else.

    Please forgive any assertive tone on my part.
    It will help all people who are learning not to get arsey with people who reply to their questions. MMM was actually being really helpfull with his answers to your questions, unfortunately you are not yet a good enough player to appeciate the info that he was giving you .If you don't understand replies , ask further questions about stuff you don't understand so that they can be clarified rather than taking offence or being antagonistic to people who reply to help you.
    Thanks!!! I would never have thoght of leading out. I think that i'm afraid of that tendency of raising every donk bet, but i don't know if that applies in 3bet pots.
    Thanks again and sorry for my english!
    As for leading out , meh I think you'll get into trouble against a nit tags range and allow him to play perfectly against you . I think several major factors that have been missed here is what hero's image is , I.e whats your vpip PFR running like and how much of a beginner are you ? is he likelyt o see you showing down rubbish, are you a lag or tag as they will all affect the villains range. If you are a nit /tag then his 3bet range vs you and your position is probably QQ+ at its loosest , if you are a lagg then he could be at the 4% end of his range with TT+AQ+

    as for your pretty HUD write down for each stat what it means and how you use it during a hand to influence your decision making . If you don't understand a stat and /or don't use it ...why have it on your HUD at all.

    You may think i'm being harsh , but i have both HEM and PT4 and have played this year on sites that don't allow a HUD to be used. Currently taken a 10£ free cash ticket on 23rd March on signing up on current site to ~650euros and not used a HUD because they are banned on that site . What it means is watching the opponents , seeing what they showdown , see how often they limp in , how often they fold to cbets etc and build a mental picture of how to exploit them. I don't sit back and say i have no info because i have no numbers , you have info from every hand that you play against people you just have to learn to interpret what you are seeing happen .
  6. #6
    MadMojoMonkey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MarinaD View Post
    So...that's your info?
    Not really, no. That's the point of beginning. That's an illustration to let you know that there is definitely stuff to give you reads on Villains before you've even seen them play a hand. The starting points are very hazy and only offer the tiniest bit of help at first, but we have to start somewhere.

    Let's start with a conversation about what there is to give us reads on Villains.

    Poker is a game of outsmarting people. The cards can be a distraction from this deeper point. My intention is to help you identify the things you've noticed about poker players and link those characteristics to ranges and styles of play.

    Please answer the question about what Villain's choice of poker game and site tells you. Even if it's broad, it will help. It will give you a sketchy outline of all the players you will be facing. The exercise is to think about all of your opponents as a single entity and see what statements can be made. If you play different games, or play on different sites, then you will immediately see that the tendencies of the players is nuanced to that particular site, stakes and game.

    Noticing Villain's starting stack before the hand is a potentially huge piece of information that I've use to make plenty of dollars. A Villain with less than a full buy-in is far less likely to understand pot odds and drawing equities. Getting all-in against them is usually good because A) they make poor folds and poor calls when faced with tough decisions and B) You risk fewer mistakes by playing aggressively and forcing the decisions onto them. I'm not saying that you should play foolishly against them; I'm saying that if you're sensible, you can find some very high profit spots against them.

    Quote Originally Posted by MarinaD View Post
    No. To be honest, i can't congeal any read with these numbers. That's why i'm asking!
    Excellent! Let's help with that, then.

    Quote Originally Posted by MarinaD View Post
    I see he has a 3bet of 4 in 188 hands..... reliable? Don't think so.
    Just because the numbers don't make sense doesn't mean you have no information. The 4 in 188 means only a little, but it does mean that we'd be shocked if the 'true' value of that stat was over 10% or less than 1%. It certainly tells us he's not the kind to 3-bet all that often. Less often = tighter range.
    So what we can infer is:
    Villain is not a loose cannon with his 3-bets. Furthermore, my experience tells me that a 3-bet of ~4% to 6% is a strong, sensible range for most FR games if a player is trying to play a TAG style.

    Is that a loose descriptor? YES. The point is that we're noticing tendencies first. THEN we link the tendency to its effect on their range. When we take into account all of what we've noticed, we'll find that it's actually enough to be a better poker player.

    Open up a program like Equilab and drag the range slider to 4%. What range is that?

    Since we accept that we could be overstating our certainty about that 4%, drag the slider a bit past 4% and see what combos are added to the range.

    Voila. We have made a loose read into a concrete range. Albeit, we are not absolutely certain about the range, but we have a VERY limited set of hands that we now expect Villain to have going to the flop.

    Quote Originally Posted by MarinaD View Post
    Does he have a 3bet bluffing range against EP with these data? I Don't know.
    So far i have ZERO info about his fold to 4bet.
    You don't know, but you can look at that 4% range in Equilab and notice that if he has bluffing hands in there, then he has to remove some of the hands from the top of his range to keep it (at least near) 4%. This means that when we assume that his 4% is the top 4%, we can only err on the side of being in a stronger position against him (preflop).

    Quote Originally Posted by MarinaD View Post
    I have no data of his 3bet pot playing tendencies.
    This is OK.
    You have reads now that he's started the pot with over 100BB, so that makes it less likely that he's an easy fish to catch.
    You know that his VPIP/PFR of 13/10 is a TAG style. He's very selective of his hands PRE. He is probably following a starting hands chart, and is highly likely to be positionally aware with his starting ranges.
    You know his 4% 3-bet stat is consistent with the above TAG style.

    All this is pre-flop info, but we can surmise that he's probably going to be an aggressive player post-flop. His starting hand selection puts him in a good position to have strong hands that play easily post flop because he's avoiding stuff like suited-connectors unless he's in late position. His pre-flop tightness will end up costing him money if he's playing passively and not pushing hard post. He thinks he's "getting away" with a lot of steals post-flop with this style, but it's more likely true that he's actually bluffing with the best hand a large portion of the time.

    Quote Originally Posted by MarinaD View Post
    BUT that's what i can look for in my very limited experience in NL10! I thought that if i'm missing something in my colorful numbers, someone with more experience could give me some extra imput.
    This is what a see at the table. What am i missing here?
    I have covered a bit. My honest answer to what you're missing is just that it's overwhelming to look at all that data and make sense of it.

    All you need is to be pointed in the right direction and you'll see how you have really been right on track all along. I'm sure you've gathered an intuitive sense of strong players and weak players. The struggle is to attach that intuitive sense to the data in your HUD, and also to ranges.

    Quote Originally Posted by MarinaD View Post
    Next time i should say that i have no CONTEXT instead of no info.
    I doubt it'd work. I'm pretty nit-picky... if you hadn't noticed.

    Quote Originally Posted by MarinaD View Post
    Please, i'm a begginer in NL10, if you are not gonna be helpful, i would appreciate to show your lack of sex somewhere else.
    I think if you re-read my above post you'll find that while I had a lot to say about your approach, I did my best to give you the answers you asked for. I did my best to point out where I was making assumptions so you could evaluate if my assumptions matched your own.

    I don't know what "lack of sex" means... but it sounds kind of mean.
    I apologize if anything I said hurt your feelings and made you feel the need to strike back at me. I assure you that I only want to offer you my perspective on learning to make mad mojo monies at playing poker.

    I am honestly trying to help you, and I claim no expertise. It's just a friendly conversation.

    Quote Originally Posted by MarinaD View Post
    Please forgive any assertive tone on my part.
    Done and done.



    Please keep the conversation alive.
  7. #7
    I haven't read the responses but I think the turn is where we should be getting away, by c/f'ing. Pre, calling the 3b is fine, and flop I would just c/c too, but the turn bet tells me we're crushed. For a start he's 13/10 with 4% 3bet after 188 hands, so he's nitty and his range is already strong, which is why he has such a high cbet stat - of course he cbets often when he only plays big hands. I can't see this villain firing JJ/QQ on this turn after we c/c flop, not unless he thinks he can push us off a king, but since we get there with flushes on the turn reasonably often, and since JJ/QQ will have a spade 50% of the time, I can't see a nit betting this turn with anything less than AK.

    I don't think folding pre to his 3b is out of the question either, I ceratinly think that's better than a 4b.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  8. #8
    Also, yeah, what monkey says. I mean what's the point of posting all those stats and then saying you have no reads? What are those numbers if they're not reads?
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  9. #9
    Ok so reading through the thread it seems OP doesn't really understand what those numbers mean.

    They are percentages. When someone is 13/10, they are playing 13% of hands, raising 10% of them. That suggests a nit. I'm gonna guess that's in the region of TT+ ATs+ AJ+ as an opening range, and his 3b stats suggests QQ+ AK. I'm not even sure what would be optimal stats in these games, but I'd expect a strong tight/aggressive player to be playing somewhere closer to 18/15. Anyone playing less than that is moving into nit territory, and those playing wider are loose. If there's a big difference between VPIP and PFR, then villain is calling raises too much. Ideally we want to be calling raises rarely, this guy's 3% difference between VPIP and PFR is solid.

    Experience will help you use these numbers better. Don't be afraid to ask what might to experienced players seem like stupid questions, and definitely don't accuse people like mojo of being unhelpful when they post an essay telling you what you're doing wrong. That post of mojo's is extremely helpful, and he doesn't have to bother.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  10. #10
    Also, fyi, 10nl is better in the Small Stakes subforum - http://www.flopturnriver.com/pokerfo...kes-nl-hold-em

    This subforum is for 50nl+... I expect it will get moved as soon as deanglow wakes from his slumber.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  11. #11
    Yeah this post has to be in small stakes...sorry for that. :/

    This is the std hud that is used in pokerstrategy (spanish forum) and educapoker. We post hands with this hud to review them becuase is faster. Since i'm posting in other forums such as 2+2 or run it once, i had to make an image where the hud is explained.
    I write the same post in all forums to have different opinions.
    You first made the assumption that i don't know what those numbers mean instead of making assumptions of the villain, which was what i was looking for.

    This is the only forum where the focus was in my colour habits and instead of a simple situation: What do you do in this classic spot where you have a strongish hand like AKs and face a 3bet oop by a villain who seems to be a TAG (on the nitty side)?

    If he's 3betting QQ+, AQ+ (3.77%) i would hate to fold my 53% equity share. If i call and hit i probably loose big pots and win the smaller ones. If i call and miss, he can make me fold with the same hand or even with a worse one (AQ). So....4bet? I'm turning AKs into a bluff.
    Since i chose to call and ended up folding later (i think he's not value betting worse hands or making a bluff given his taggy numbers) i realized that my preflop move was arguable.
    Why is this the only forum where i have to explain this?

    Again, sorry for my english.
  12. #12
    You first made the assumption that i don't know what those numbers mean instead of making assumptions of the villain, which was what i was looking for.
    I assume this because you said this...

    No. To be honest, i can't congeal any read with these numbers. That's why i'm asking!
    I see he has a 3bet of 4 in 188 hands..... reliable? Don't think so.
    Does he have a 3bet bluffing range against EP with these data? I Don't know.
    Why can't you get a read from the numbers? There's a great deal of information there if you know how to interpret the numbers.

    He hasn't 3bet 4 times in 188, it's 4% of 188, which is 7 times. And yes that's quite reliable info. He's very unlikely to have worse than AQ or JJ, and I'd be leaning QQ+ AK based on his nitty nature.

    Does he have a 3b bluffing range? Not if these stats are to be relied upon. He's surely had plenty of opportunities to 3b bluff in the 188 hands he's played, and he's shown himself to be a nit, so I don't anticipate a bluff.

    This is what I mean about understanding your numbers. You say you want to make assumptions on the villain, not the numbers, but the villain is the numbers. That's the point of the HUD - to help you profile your villain effectively.

    This is the only forum where the focus was in my colour habits and instead of a simple situation: What do you do in this classic spot where you have a strongish hand like AKs and face a 3bet oop by a villain who seems to be a TAG (on the nitty side)?
    The answer to this is the same as the vast majority of poker questions - it depends. In this case, it depends just how nitty your villain is, and/or villain's perception of you. With a 4% 3b over 188, we can safely say he hasn't got worse than JJ or AQ. He might or might not have those hands in his range, and he certainly has QQ+ AK.

    If his range is QQ+ AK, we should fold pre. If it's JJ+ AK, again we should fold pre. We need him to have AQ before we can continue. I think this is optimistic... I'm 3betting wider than this guy, but I'm generally not 3betting AQ from MP vs an EP open unless I have tons of notes indicating that EP opener is a fish. I'm not convinced you're a fish because you're not overplaying your hand here. Therefore, I think villain has QQ+ AK and we should fold pre.

    That said, AK is obviously a great hand and it's tough to fold pre, even vs a nit. We can't just fold the flop after flopping tptk in a 3b pot, so we have to call. Turn I think is where it's now clear that villain has us crushed and isn't folding.

    I agree with you that 4betting AK here is turning our hand into a bluff. Worse, it's a bluff vs a range that doesn't have an folds. I think 4betting is a very bad play vs this guy. I would say folding is best having analysed it, but at the table I probably call and fold turn.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  13. #13
    It's also worth noting that even if villain has AQ, he's actually still favourite to win the hand, because we only hit the flop 1/3 of the time, and he's betting the flop 100% of the time, meaning we fold the best hand around 2/3 of the time. It's all very well having equity, but realising it is another thing altogether.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  14. #14
    Thanks OngBonga! That was pretty clear!

    I know that 3bet of 4 is a 4%.... If you read my last post i say that QQ+ AQ+ is 3.77%.
    But it's optimistic to say that he's doing that against an UTG open raise.

    I cannot congeal any reads in regards his play in 3bet pots or reactions to 4bet. That is what i meant.

    But again, thanks for your post, it was really good.
    Last edited by MarinaD; 06-11-2015 at 06:10 PM.
  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by MarinaD View Post
    Yeah this post has to be in small stakes...sorry for that. :/

    This is the std hud that is used in pokerstrategy (spanish forum) and educapoker. We post hands with this hud to review them becuase is faster. Since i'm posting in other forums such as 2+2 or run it once, i had to make an image where the hud is explained.
    I write the same post in all forums to have different opinions.
    You first made the assumption that i don't know what those numbers mean instead of making assumptions of the villain, which was what i was looking for.

    This is the only forum where the focus was in my colour habits and instead of a simple situation: What do you do in this classic spot where you have a strongish hand like AKs and face a 3bet oop by a villain who seems to be a TAG (on the nitty side)?

    If he's 3betting QQ+, AQ+ (3.77%) i would hate to fold my 53% equity share. If i call and hit i probably loose big pots and win the smaller ones. If i call and miss, he can make me fold with the same hand or even with a worse one (AQ). So....4bet? I'm turning AKs into a bluff.
    Since i chose to call and ended up folding later (i think he's not value betting worse hands or making a bluff given his taggy numbers) i realized that my preflop move was arguable.
    Why is this the only forum where i have to explain this?

    Again, sorry for my english.
    well at least OP is revealing that he is here just to troll at worst or gauge opinions at best. Doesn't take much to find that OP posted here http://www.pokerstrategy.com/forum/t...hreadid=337691 revealing that he joined PS in 2012. Looking at his posts it shows that he has been posting 25nl FR hand for most of late 2014.
  16. #16
    I'm assuming OP's intention is to gauge opinions, which is obv fine.

    I cannot congeal any reads in regards his play in 3bet pots or reactions to 4bet. That is what i meant.
    Well here we have to make some assumptions, but they are assumptions based on what we know about villain. Becuase his 3b range is so tight, we can expect him to cbet close to 100% of the time, and when he doesn't he probably flopped top set. With QQ+ AK, he's either going to flop an overpair, a set, tptk, or overcards with maybe a gutshot and/or flush draw. All of these hands are good enough to cbet, and because he's a nit, he's probably going to play aggressively when he has a strong hand because it's not often he'll be in value spots. So we should anticipate at least a flop bet, and usually three bets. I'd only expect him to stop betting when he has ace high and we call the flop, or when there's an overcard to his pair.. When he bets the turn and we call, I expect a river shove 100% of the time. This is why I think folding turn is better than folding river. If we're folding to river shove, then fold to turn bet and save yourself 30bb.

    As for how he reacts to a 4b, well his 3b range is so tight that it's hard to see him do anything but shove. This is why I think 4b'ing AK is a huge mistake here, we're never getting worse to call, nor is better folding, we're just allowing his stronger range to clean us out.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  17. #17
    What's wrong with that?
    I've just said that i post there and a bunch of other sites............like almost every online poker player.

    I took a shot at NL25 fullring last year. Y came back to NL10 and now i'm in 25 again (hopefully to stay).

    I signed up here mostly because of spoonitnow posts...... but i don't feel welcomed here...so i guess i'm not going to stay.

    Good luck with your community, sorry for everything and thanks again to OngBonga.
  18. #18
    WHy not be open and honest rather than appearing to be laying traps and lieing (i.e no experience, a beginner etc). Everyone has given you pertinent information and if you really had been a beginner would have been a lot of help to you . That doesn't appear to have been your objective though .
  19. #19
    Check call 2, fold river seems standard in this spot at nit ring. You look so much like your exact hand to villain, and he still wants to gii, so I can find a nitty fold. At best we're chopping, so I'm okay with folding. Nobody bluffs with enough combos in this spot too.

    My general assumption when being 3bet by MP when UTG at nit ring is that villain's range is super strong. Even AK is unlikely to 3 bet in these seats, so we're left being crushed by 3 combos of AA and 1 of KK and beating nothing.
  20. #20
    OP - there is a lot of good advice here that ppl have given you, so I would take that to heart.

    You definitely have enough information on villain to make some solid reads. If you are having trouble parsing out that information quickly/on the spot from your HUD, I would say you should tone down your HUD. Put only the essentials and that will help you focus on the most important stats in a play. If you need more, check your popup etc.

    As for this particular hand, villain is a nit to the max, 13/10 and only 4% 3b. I think this is a good spot to call 3b OOP and tread carefully.

    I would play the hand the same as you, and if I was playing my A game I would find a fold on the river.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jay-Z
    I'm a couple hands down and I'm tryin' to get back
    I gave the other grip, I lost a flip for five stacks
  21. #21
    Razvan729's Avatar
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    Vs this villain You can 4b/f QQ/AK. If you also have a nit image he csn 3b/f QQ/AK allowing You to 4b/f w/ profit. If not ,taie a note and adjust further play accordingly
    All posts are just my own opinion about a hand or a general situation... not advices on how you should play...
  22. #22
    spoonitnow's Avatar
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    Regarding your HUD: Back to Basics Part 5: Poker Reads Made Simple. I'm a big proponent of having a limited, basic HUD when learning poker.

    I'm okay folding pre-flop to this opponent as an exploitative measure. I can't imagine a scenario where we're getting bluffed enough to be worried about being exploited ourselves against a 13/10 with a 4% pre-flop 3-bet (I hope it's set to PF 3-bet instead of 3-bet % in general anyway).

    I prefer a check/call on the flop. We don't have to worry about flush draws or straight draws that much since they just aren't much of his range overall, and he's going to bet them himself anyway. One of the advantages of a check/call here is that we pick up an extra bet from any bluffs in his hand that we wouldn't have gotten otherwise.

    I might go ahead and lead the turn. There are a lot of hands with one spade in his range at this point, etc.

    Also I sent you a PM.
  23. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by Razvan729 View Post
    Vs this villain You can 4b/f QQ/AK. If you also have a nit image he csn 3b/f QQ/AK allowing You to 4b/f w/ profit. If not ,taie a note and adjust further play accordingly
    4b/f is a bluff. Why the hell are you bluffing AK against a nit's top 4%? This is crazy talk. When we 4b, villain 5b shoves 100%. He has QQ+ AK, and plays them for stacks pre flop given the chance. That's what nits do, it's how they squeeze a profit... enough muppets are stacking AK and sometimes worse against their ridiculous range to justify such a strategy. He's not folding AK, he's not folding QQ, he's reraising all in with them, because nit at micros with premium. So if we're 4b/f'ing, we just set fire to money.

    Call or fold pre are both fine imo, but 4b is either overplaying our hand, or turning it into a very bad bluff.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  24. #24
    Razvan729's Avatar
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    I said try IT. You are talking general pool play i am suggesting a particular approach. If pur image is right, he is folding QQ AK,might even call KK. Or he could play your way. Nothing wrong in trying and taking notes. We could Be value 4b, not enough hands and/or reads yet to state firmly a strategy. Cant say i am right but also can say You are right. Need more info.
    All posts are just my own opinion about a hand or a general situation... not advices on how you should play...
  25. #25
    I can't believe there's people playing this tight that will 3b/f AK/QQ vs EP at 100bb. Villain is 5b shoving this spot always imo. I would only 4b if I'm happy to call off stacks, which I'm not with AKo vs this guy.

    I think 4b here is absolutely crazy, but what do I know?
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  26. #26
    Razvan729's Avatar
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    Do You fold AK QQ vs an EP 4b?
    All posts are just my own opinion about a hand or a general situation... not advices on how you should play...
  27. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by Razvan729 View Post
    Do You fold AK QQ vs an EP 4b?
    Not at my games. I'm playing 20nl 30bb capped games on SkyPoker, and AK/QQ is never a fold pre flop because there's a lot of people stacking off light in these games.

    But against certain villains in certain spots, yeah I can be folding AK/QQ to a 4b, sure.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  28. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by OngBonga View Post

    But against certain villains in certain spots, yeah I can be folding AK/QQ to a 4b, sure.
    Q.E.D. with the right image in the right position vs the right villain 4b-ing AKo can be more profitable then call or fold.
    All posts are just my own opinion about a hand or a general situation... not advices on how you should play...
  29. #29
    Of course it can. I just don't think this is the right villain, and I don't see why we need to test the water in that respect because our stats already tell us enough about the villain.

    I can fold AK/QQ pre flop because it's not the bottom of my 3b range, meaning I'm generally not starved of action.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  30. #30
    Eric's Avatar
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    Being out of position like this, I usually just call but sometimes I 4-bet. Maybe call 3/4 times and 4-bet 1/4 times.

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