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Noob question for 2/2 NL Home game

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  1. #1

    Default Noob question for 2/2 NL Home game

    Hi guys,

    sorry it's my first time posting so do bear with me.


    Pre flop:

    3rd from button - raises to $15. I flat $15, and
    BB raises $65.
    3rd position calls $65. I'm 1 from the dealer, with
    I call $65.

    Flop is

    BB bets $135. Pot is Approximately $195.

    3rd position folds to me.

    Should I call? Raise or All in? Fold?
    My stack is $570 left vs his stack $1200.

    Please advise.
    BB is new to the table but is fairly aggressive.

    Thank you!
    Last edited by mkv; 03-22-2016 at 10:04 PM. Reason: added more information
  2. #2
    How many people are at the table?

    How is the first action BB raising when every other person at the table has to do something before the action gets to him?
  3. #3
    Ugh, this is practically identical to a hand I had recently. I called, turn was 7, I called again, river was king, it checked through and he had jacks. I was glad I didn't shove flop.

    I think calling is right here, reassessing as we go. It's awkward to play later streets, sure, but shoving can only get called by hands we're losing to. I guess he could have 88, but that's really all we can hope for.

    If you've seen him call ace high in these kind of spots, well that changes everything. Do you have any reads on this guy?
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  4. #4
    BB is new to the table but is fairly aggressive.
    Just noticed this, sorry. Yeah call him, let him keep betting. We can't assume he's going to call AK or whatever if we shove.

    Also yeah, villain can't be BB. He's UTG if he's first to act.

    This could be a 3bet pre flop, certainly if we're short handed.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by OngBonga View Post
    Ugh, this is practically identical to a hand I had recently. I called, turn was 7, I called again, river was king, it checked through and he had jacks. I was glad I didn't shove flop.

    I think calling is right here, reassessing as we go. It's awkward to play later streets, sure, but shoving can only get called by hands we're losing to. I guess he could have 88, but that's really all we can hope for.
    Doing anything except calling here is going to be pretty bad imo. You shouldn't want to be raising in this spot you aren't ahead of anything that's calling (exc reads).

    It's really important to know the action and what hands you have because it really changes your plan postflop.

    From a really basic how do I play this hand in complete isolation then we don't really have any helpful turn cards, 8 & 9s kill action from things we beat whilst also giving us the chance of being crushed. High cards are meh, low cards are still tricky to play. And 99 is a bad hand to bluff as it blocks hands he'd be tempted to turn into a bluff on missed cards.
  6. #6
    From a really basic how do I play this hand in complete isolation then we don't really have any helpful turn cards, 8 & 9s kill action from things we beat whilst also giving us the chance of being crushed. High cards are meh, low cards are still tricky to play. And 99 is a bad hand to bluff as it blocks hands he'd be tempted to turn into a bluff on missed cards.
    I think it was only yesterday I played this spot, which is why it's so fresh in my memory. I remember feeling that it was an awkward spot for such a great flop.

    I initially felt like I wanted to shove because I didn't want to have to deal with overcard turns, but I quickly recognised that is no good reason to shove, and that I was only getting called by better, and very occasionally 88.

    I agree that other options seem bad, I mean folding here is weak as fuck, certainly on flop.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by OngBonga View Post
    I think it was only yesterday I played this spot, which is why it's so fresh in my memory. I remember feeling that it was an awkward spot for such a great flop.

    I initially felt like I wanted to shove because I didn't want to have to deal with overcard turns, but I quickly recognised that is no good reason to shove, and that I was only getting called by better, and very occasionally 88.

    I agree that other options seem bad, I mean folding here is weak as fuck, certainly on flop.
    Thanks for the advice.

    I folded, because at that point I wasn't sure if calling $135 for a pot of $$325 was worth it from a value point of view?
    I'm still not sure if it is.

    I put him on AA, KK, QQ, JJ, 1010, AKs, AQs, AJs, A10s... and A to 10 Os.

    It just felt like a real tough call for me.
  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by ImSavy View Post
    How many people are at the table?

    How is the first action BB raising when every other person at the table has to do something before the action gets to him?
    Sorry, everyone folded except me and the other guy who limped in at $15. Then BB 3 bet to $65.

    I wanted to slow-play my 99s, cos I didn't feel they were too strong anyway.
  9. #9
    We're missing a lot of pre flop information here that is critical.

    First guy limps. He's middle posititon (MP) I assume. Do you limp behind or raise? You should raise. I assume due to BB's bet sizing that he has not 3bet, he has simply raised over the limps, which is a 2bet. A 3bet is to raise a 2bet, a reraise.

    The difference between this being a 2bet pot and a 3bet pot is important. If we were 3bet pre flop, then folding flop isn't so bad. But if we limped and were raised, then villain's range is not strong enough to justify a flop fold.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  10. #10
    UTG limp, 3 folds, CO raises, folds
    CO raise is a 2bet

    UTG raise, 3 folds, CO raises, folds
    UTG raise is a 2bet, CO raise is a 3bet

    UTG raise, 3 folds, CO raises, 2 folds, BB raises
    BB raise is 4bet

    A limp, like a call, is not a raise, so it is simply a 1bet. The bet number goes up with every raise.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  11. #11
    MadMojoMonkey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mkv View Post
    Sorry, everyone folded except me and the other guy who limped in at $15. Then BB 3 bet to $65.

    I wanted to slow-play my 99s, cos I didn't feel they were too strong anyway.
    You should (almost definitely) not be limping with 99's from the CO (the seat next to the BTN).

    Even if you're going to slow play your 99's, PRE is not the time to be doing so.
    In general, you should not be limping. If you're limping, then let it be for a specific reason to target a specific opponent. Don't assume that just because other people limp, you should limp.

    In general, if you want to limp, you should probably fold. That's your intuition letting you know that you have a speculative or "usually gonna lose" type of hand. Unless you understand the math to show that it's not a losing proposition, then trust me that limping is (for almost all beginners) a losing tactic.

    In this spot, you should say, "Dude, you are saying I should fold 99? No way! You're mad!"
    I'd say, "Exactly. Nice to meet you. No, don't fold your 99. Don't limp. Do open the betting to 3 - 5 BB."


    The whole hand plays differently when you put the decision on the BB PRE to either 3-bet or call your open. This is going to be a dramatically different set of ranges than what you've given him. As it stands, for all you know, he's betting PRE because no one has shown strength, so his ranges are super wide. Or he could have a strong hand, too... but his ranges are wide. If you had opened to, say $60, then he either folds, calls the $60, or raises. Now, you can (probably) cap his range when he calls, so QQ+ is less likely, and you can fold or call when he 3-bets, knowing pretty strongly where you are in the hand (prob behind a big PP, and prob scared of an A or K on the flop).

    So the takeaway is to stop letting Villains play weak hands against your strong hands for a good price. When you have a strong hand, you put the decision on them; you set a worse price for them. Don't worry about them "reading" you. They don't know whether you have 99 or AA or QJs or A4s. Don't worry about the times when they bink that flush against you. Try to not pay them off, but rest assured that you're probably winning more than you're losing by forcing them to pay more when they play weaker hands.
    Last edited by MadMojoMonkey; 03-22-2016 at 01:22 PM.
  12. #12
    MadMojoMonkey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OngBonga View Post
    We're missing a lot of pre flop information here that is critical.

    First guy limps. He's middle posititon (MP) I assume. Do you limp behind or raise? You should raise. I assume due to BB's bet sizing that he has not 3bet, he has simply raised over the limps, which is a 2bet. A 3bet is to raise a 2bet, a reraise.

    The difference between this being a 2bet pot and a 3bet pot is important. If we were 3bet pre flop, then folding flop isn't so bad. But if we limped and were raised, then villain's range is not strong enough to justify a flop fold.
    Good points in here.

    I mean: Shut up, you. I was just about to say all this stuff!
  13. #13
    In general, if you want to limp, you should probably fold.
    I think in loose passive low stakes where we're deep enough (ie 100bb) then limping small pairs with the intention of snap folding missed flops is fine, but you'll also need to limp weak Axs and some small suited connectors to mix up your limping range and ensure you're not obviously holding a set when you continue past flop after limping.

    But yeah, it's important to have a reason for limping. In the example above, it's high implied odds with a high probability of seeing a flop.

    *edit - by "small pairs", I don't mean 99. This is always a raise in position against a limp.
    Last edited by OngBonga; 03-22-2016 at 01:32 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  14. #14
    To be clear: this is a 2/2 cash game, where somebody open raised for $15, you flat and then the BB re-raised to $65?

    I just think we're bleeding money here by both calling pre and doing anything other than folding the flop.
  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by The Bean Counter View Post
    To be clear: this is a 2/2 cash game, where somebody open raised for $15, you flat and then the BB re-raised to $65?

    I just think we're bleeding money here by both calling pre and doing anything other than folding the flop.
    This is absolutely correct.

    and after BB re-raised to $65, the 3rd position called $65 and I also called $65 to see the flop.

    After flop opened, BB bet $135, 3rd position folded and action was on me.

    Sorry to everyone here for not providing the complete picture, I'm still trying to learn the proper terminology and best way to describe the hand. Will do better in future
  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by OngBonga View Post
    We're missing a lot of pre flop information here that is critical.

    First guy limps. He's middle posititon (MP) I assume. Do you limp behind or raise? You should raise. I assume due to BB's bet sizing that he has not 3bet, he has simply raised over the limps, which is a 2bet. A 3bet is to raise a 2bet, a reraise.

    The difference between this being a 2bet pot and a 3bet pot is important. If we were 3bet pre flop, then folding flop isn't so bad. But if we limped and were raised, then villain's range is not strong enough to justify a flop fold.
    Sorry maybe my description wasn't good
    First guy (3rd off the button) - raises to $15.
    I call and BB re-raises to $65.
    3rd guy and me call $65.

    Is that correct to say it's a 3 bet?

    Also - when the 3rd from the button raised to $15, I felt he was showing moderate strength (Ax,Kx,Qx), so I wanted to just flat the $15 and try to trap him.
    Last edited by mkv; 03-22-2016 at 10:05 PM. Reason: changes
  17. #17
    MadMojoMonkey's Avatar
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    :/
    Well, I guess my advice about limping isn't relevant to this hand at all.

    I'd say calling the open from MP is going to be marginal at best. It depends on the player, but it's more likely than not that your 9's are very near 50% equity against his range. I.e. you will need to play this spot carefully to about break even in the long run.

    Whether or not you call here is going to rely heavily on your estimation of MP's current range and how well you can outplay him post flop. I have to say that "outplay" often means folding, not getting fancy with attempted bluffs and other trickery.

    It is also important to realize that you are in the CO, and there are still 3 people to act behind you PRE. Obv. the BB has gotten involved this time, which pretty much forces you to fold PRE. He wont do that every time, but the SB and the BTN will pick up at least some of his slack on that. So it's not enough to be near a winning EV against the opener, you also need to consider the times when it goes multi-handed.

    Anyway... I maybe call the raise to $15, but usually not. I'm (just about) never calling the 3-bet from BB to $65.
  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by MadMojoMonkey View Post
    :/
    Well, I guess my advice about limping isn't relevant to this hand at all.

    I'd say calling the open from MP is going to be marginal at best. It depends on the player, but it's more likely than not that your 9's are very near 50% equity against his range. I.e. you will need to play this spot carefully to about break even in the long run.



    Whether or not you call here is going to rely heavily on your estimation of MP's current range and how well you can outplay him post flop. I have to say that "outplay" often means folding, not getting fancy with attempted bluffs and other trickery.

    It is also important to realize that you are in the CO, and there are still 3 people to act behind you PRE. Obv. the BB has gotten involved this time, which pretty much forces you to fold PRE. He wont do that every time, but the SB and the BTN will pick up at least some of his slack on that. So it's not enough to be near a winning EV against the opener, you also need to consider the times when it goes multi-handed.

    Anyway... I maybe call the raise to $15, but usually not. I'm (just about) never calling the 3-bet from BB to $65.
    Thank you.

    This was very sound advice.
    Makes me re-consider, and in hind-sight, calling a raise from $15 to $65 probably wasn't the best choice, and I was just trying to get lucky and flop a set.

    Should have just folded there...

    Thank you!
  19. #19
    If you know you're folding if you don't hit a set, then you need plenty of money left behind, ie at least 15x the bet size, preferably more, so that when you win you win enough to cover the times you call pre flop and fold flop. You flop a set around one in 9 times, the rest of the slack is for the times they don't pay you off, or the rare occassion a set loses.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong

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