[10NL] ATs, OOP. BvB, shove turn with trips and RFD.

[Cobra_1878]

Villain is 22/20/13 (3bet) through 156 hands.

Folded his blinds to steal 64% of the time, only 45% in BB, 5/11. This was the 6th time he had 3bet my BU/SB raise in the BB. 42% cbet.


PokerStars - $0.10 NL (6 max) - Holdem - 5 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4

UTG: $0.14
CO: $10.00
BTN: $10.84
Hero (SB): $15.43
BB: $16.35

Hero posts SB $0.05, BB posts BB $0.10

Pre Flop: (pot: $0.15) Hero has A T

fold, fold, fold, Hero raises to $0.30, BB raises to $0.90, Hero calls $0.60

Flop: ($1.80, 2 players) J A Q
Hero checks, BB bets $1.30, Hero raises to $4.50, BB calls $3.20

Turn: ($10.80, 2 players) A
Hero bets $10.03 and is all-in

Have I overplayed my hand here? I don't mind the c/r on the flop but I'm not so sure about shoving the turn on a paired board as my club outs may already be dead to JJ/QQ or possibly AJ/AQ.

Thoughts?

Also, something I just considered. What do people think about a 4bet pre?

[rong]

I'd prob bet $5 to try and keep in worse Ax hands. But I've been having issues with not betting big enough lately so my opinion is of meh value.

[Cobra_1878]

I'd prob bet $5 to try and keep in worse Ax hands. But I've been having issues with not betting big enough lately so my opinion is of meh value.

Would a worse Ax call the c/r on flop though? I am thinking the only hand I have beat right now that villain could have is QJ.

The more I look at it, the more I don't like the shove actually.

[rong]

Oh, so you raised as a bluff? I don't like that at all.

[Cobra_1878]

Oh, so you raised as a bluff? I don't like that at all.

That's not what I said.

[rong]

But if nothing that you beat calls.....?

[Cobra_1878]

But if nothing that you beat calls.....?

Semi-bluff and bluff are not the same right? I don't believe for one second you thought I was c/r for value.....

[rong]

Well not on the flop. I like the c/r on the flop.

But on the turn if you are putting villain on 2p plus and khi flush draws, he now folds QJ, calls his boats (2% eq?) and well mostly calls his straights (20% eq?) and folds any Khi flush draws which you dominate to fuck and maybe some straights if you are lucky.

Ideally I'd like a free river card.

[Cobra_1878]

Well not on the flop. I like the c/r on the flop.

But on the turn if you are putting villain on 2p plus and khi flush draws, he now folds QJ, calls his boats (2% eq?) and well mostly calls his straights (20% eq?) and folds any Khi flush draws which you dominate to fuck and maybe some straights if you are lucky.

Ideally I'd like a free river card.

Yeah I thought about checking the turn but after c/r the flop I thought that would just look super weak, like I had took a bluffing line. If he bets I am calling anyway right? So I might as well be the aggressor?

The A was a strange card because it improves my hand but I think it kills a lot of my equity at the same time. This is why I posted the hand.

[rong]

Well, if you check, I guess he also checks his khi flush draws, bets his AK, straights and boats, so if keeps some of his weaker hands in. I'm pretty sure I'd check. Prob call too as lots of cards have you splitting the pot or winning.

What's your equity vs all boats, khi flush draws, straights, AK?

[Cobra_1878]

Well, if you check, I guess he also checks his khi flush draws, bets his AK, straights and boats, so if keeps some of his weaker hands in. I'm pretty sure I'd check. Prob call too as lots of cards have you splitting the pot or winning.

What's your equity vs all boats, khi flush draws, straights, AK?

I included 2P in his range as well

Text results appended to pokerstove.txt

1,980 games 0.000 secs 396,000 games/sec

Board: Ah Qc Jc Ad
Dead:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 55.455% 53.64% 01.82% 1062 36.00 { AcTc }
Hand 1: 44.545% 42.73% 01.82% 846 36.00 { QQ-JJ, AJs+, KTs, Kc9c, Kc8c, Kc7c, Kc6c, Kc5c, Kc4c, Kc3c, Kc2c, QJs, AJo+, KTo, QJo }

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Without 2P in his range

Text results appended to pokerstove.txt

116,436,672 games 0.032 secs 3,638,646,000 games/sec

Board:
Dead:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 42.744% 40.97% 01.77% 47704103 2065725.00 { AcTc }
Hand 1: 57.256% 55.48% 01.77% 64601119 2065725.00 { QQ-JJ, AJs+, KTs, Kc9c, Kc8c, Kc7c, Kc6c, Kc5c, Kc4c, Kc3c, Kc2c, AJo+, KTo }

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I also doubt he has all of those suited K's in his range as well, probably only K9/K8

[rong]

Yeah, try no 2p and only k9 gf.

[Cobra_1878]

Text results appended to pokerstove.txt

1,100 games 0.000 secs 220,000 games/sec

Board: Ah Qc Jc Ad
Dead:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 30.455% 28.27% 02.18% 311 24.00 { AcTc }
Hand 1: 69.545% 67.36% 02.18% 741 24.00 { QQ-JJ, AQs-AJs, KTs, Kc9c, AQo-AJo, KTo }

[JKDS]

Switch tables :/ We really dont need a lag with 150bbs effective stacks on our left when theres easier tables.

i dont really know what to do here. I dont want to shovel because we're behind a reasonable calling range. I dont want to call down because theres tons of reverse implied odds. MEH. tough spot.

[Cobra_1878]

Switch tables :/ We really dont need a lag with 150bbs effective stacks on our left when theres easier tables.

i dont really know what to do here. I dont want to shovel because we're behind a reasonable calling range. I dont want to call down because theres tons of reverse implied odds. MEH. tough spot.

Interesting to read you think a 22/20/13 ( 3bet is a little high yeah ) is a lag. Did you realize it was 6 max? I wouldn't consider those stats as lag myself.

[JKDS]

Dont be passive aggressive. If you disagree with my reasoning, then by all means disagree. Arguing semantics is frightfully dull, and my argument stands regardless.

[rong]

Dont be passive aggressive. If you disagree with my reasoning, then by all means disagree. Arguing semantics is frightfully dull, and my argument stands regardless.

Dudes been beaten down by the "how dare you question my authoriti" regs. It's not his fault.

[griffey24]

Haven't read the other posts in this thread, but my first reaction to this hand based on the action is that the flop raise seems pretty pointless?

I would just c/c the flop, you already have top pair so why are we raising? You also have a gutter and a FD, this is such a good flop to just c/c down and you're not really too worried about any runouts. Maaybe he folds QJ (though even having that in the first place is unlikely). It's conceivable that you can get him to fold AK too but it doesn't seem worth it and after the turn he's probably not even folding that.

As for the turn, I would rather bet like $2 and induce some jam than jamming myself. Now he's not folding AK (which you would have wanted to get a fold from) and he is folding QJ, but we beat that hand now.

Really though, I'm just c/c down.

[d0zer]

Semi-bluff and bluff are not the same right? I don't believe for one second you thought I was c/r for value.....

You semi-bluff to fold out stuff that beats you. What beats you and folds?

[Cobra_1878]

You semi-bluff to fold out stuff that beats you. What beats you and folds?

Didn't say I wanted a fold, I am happy to get it all-in on flop. I am semi-bluffing with a hand that has good potential, there is no doubt I am behind on the flop.

Are you saying you c/c the flop?

[eugmac]

If you are semi bluffing, you have to by definition be hoping for folds from better hands. Bluffing of any sort where you never get better hands to fold is spew, just as a value bet that never ever gets worse to call is spew. I think here you thought you have nut royal draw plus top pair so you'll just jam it in. Don't take it the wrong way, we've all done that or similar things at one point or many.

Now going back to this actual hand, it's BvB and he 3bets your SB steals a lot, so there's likely plenty of worse Ax combos in his range, as well as perhaps some worse XXcc combos. Can you elaborate on the history you've had with villain, particularly postflop? Obviously my point is if he thinks we're FOS and will call our c/R with A8, that's cool. But otherwise it seems pointless, as griffey put it. Assuming you think he has enough AX combos that he 3bet bluffed with preflop that he would call the flop c/R with... then the turn jam is not a bluff, it's a value bet.

Also consider his preflop range. He either folds or he 3bets, and he's 3bet your steal over half the time. That's a pretty huge range.

[griffey24]

I think people are getting on you because of you use of the term semi-bluff.

Bluff - A play with zero equity or minimal equity to get hands better than ours to fold.

Semi-Bluff - A play with good equity to very good equity to get hands better than ours to fold.

Spew - A play in which no better hands will fold.

You are claiming to be semi-bluffing simply because you should in theory have good equity here vs his range (which is true), but this is just a spot where almost no better hands are folding. So you're claiming semi-bluff while other ppl are claiming it's spew.

[d0zer]

Didn't say I wanted a fold, I am happy to get it all-in on flop. I am semi-bluffing with a hand that has good potential, there is no doubt I am behind on the flop.

The word bluff, whether it be semi or not means you want a fold. There is absolutely no reason to believe you're behind on the flop with his wide 3bet range UNTIL you narrow his range with your c/r. I suppose there's a chance of some combos of weaker draws he could continue with, even if he probably shouldn't but your c/r will fold out those some % of the time which is not what you want at all.

[OngBonga]

I'm wiping jizz off my monitor after this flop. I'm going broke here for sure. Prob bet $5 turn with every intention of getting the rest in asap.

[bigspenda73]

The thing is it's not mathematically incorrect (perhaps the word I'm looking for is unprofitable?) to raise/get-it-in on the flop, but it's not the best option. We don't get anything more out of the air part of his range and it's possible we make him fold the made hands we're crushing (say he's 3betting some low AXs type hands or KQ although I think in today's games a lot of players are checking back flop with those hands).

[OngBonga]

The thing is it's not mathematically incorrect (perhaps the word I'm looking for is unprofitable?) to raise/get-it-in on the flop, but it's not the best option. We don't get anything more out of the air part of his range and it's possible we make him fold the made hands we're crushing (say he's 3betting some low AXs type hands or KQ although I think in today's games a lot of players are checking back flop with those hands).

I should probably think more like this rather than get a boner over a huge combo draw. Obviously getting as much in on the flop as possible is profitable, and it's real easy to just drool and take the easy route of OMG MONIES. To be honest you might well have identified a huuuuuge leak of mine here, I mean I doubt it's just monster draws like this, which are rare. There's gotta be tons of spots where I settle for a line because I figure it's profitable, and don't stop to think if other lines are more profitable. Thanks spenda, you've shown me where I need to focus my study on.

[Cobra_1878]

OK, let's just say we played like a weak/passive fish and c/c the flop. We make our flush on the turn, how do we proceed with the hand?

[eugmac]

OK, let's just say we played like a weak/passive fish and c/c the flop. We make our flush on the turn, how do we proceed with the hand?

Whoa. What's with the tone?

[Cobra_1878]

Whoa. What's with the tone?

Well the c/r was clearly a bad move so I just assume we play weak/passive until we have the nuts.

[Savy]

I think you're confused. Just because a weak/passive fish would do the same thing in a situation doesn't mean it's not the right thing to do. If I 4bet shove every hand that was 3bet to me it'd be the right thing to do some % of the time. You wouldn't describe someone who 4bet shove AA a maniac. It's all about trying to take the most +EV line.

Look at it this way, if he is cbetting with any ace, king, ten, flush draw, two pair or better (probably a bit wide). When you raise he is going to fold out a huge portion of that range a lot of the time. Whereas by calling you let him keep the whole of that range and you have loads of cards which make you have an awesome hand. Whereas by raising you leave him with hands which are probably similar or better to yours.

People aren't even saying what you did was bad, just that doing something else could be better.

[griffey24]

lol I'm not surprised at the tone. From the beginning of learning to play poker the primary message is play TAGG, if you're going to play a hand play it aggressively, if you play aggressively you can win at showdown or win by getting them to fold etc etc. But there's a time and a place for everything.

There are several reasons to play passively:
-We keep worse hands in, and allow them to bluff
-We control the size of the pot
-We balance with other parts of our range
These to name a few.

Thinking that every strong hand has to be played aggressively in every spot will result in taking the less than ideal line fairly often.

Balance is probably the biggest reason for passive lines. Though balance may not be critical at lower stakes it's important to think about. How are you playing AA/QQ pre? I'm assuming 4betting. I'm assuming you're probably not playing KT to a 3b. So your credible value range on this flop is AQ and JJ, and I'd say only half of AJ combos should raise (4) and QJ should c/c down as well, so 16 combos. If we also see flop with maybe some AK given stacks? (2), KQs (3), KJs (3), ATs(3), JTs (3), some A7-A9s? (9) - so about 23 combos that will c/c the flop. Of these 23 combos a TON of these combos I'd argue can't take much more heat. You really need a hand like ATcc in your range that can face barrels here. This is also why I say not to raise half of AJ or QJ on flop, so we have more hands here to c/c down with.

coles notes:
-taking a passive line isn't always a bad thing

[eugmac]

Consider the EV of coming in here posting a hand asking for advice, getting several long-time regs who are much better than you telling you their reasoning why a c/c makes more sense than a c/r, and then you replying in an incredulous tone, backhandedly calling the suggested line to be one taken by a fish. It's also at least the 3rd time in this thread that you've taken that tone. See, disagreeing with something is ok, and saying so is ok. But as soon as you start acting the way you've been acting, you discourage people from ever wanting to post in your threads, which is harmful for your poker learning.

[eugmac]

and uh, cudos to griffey for the superb post considering everything.

[OngBonga]

Well the c/r was clearly a bad move so I just assume we play weak/passive until we have the nuts.

The c/r wasn't clearly a bad move. You're missing the point here cobra, the c/r is a good move, but the c/c is a better move. Try to understand why it is better. Then analyse your sessions and see how many other spots you can find more profitable lines than the ones you took. If you can successfully indetify these spots and apply it to your game, your winrate will go through the roof. That's just one difference between low stakes and mid stakes players.