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[50NL] A3s...3bet pot facing river jam

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  1. #1

    Default [50NL] A3s...3bet pot facing river jam

    Villain is 29/24/9 (3bet) over 266 hands. FT3B 64%, FTCB 63%. ATS from BU is 46%.

    Had seen villain do some spazzy things like 3bet squeezing w/ K9s from SB and then stacking off on flop w/ just 2 overs.

    PokerStars - $0.50 NL (6 max) - Holdem - 5 players
    Hand converted by PokerTracker 4

    UTG: $18.25
    CO: $52.82
    BTN: $51.50
    SB: $68.53
    Hero (BB): $68.41

    SB posts SB $0.25, Hero posts BB $0.50

    Pre Flop: (pot: $0.75) Hero has 3 A

    fold, fold, BTN raises to $1.00, fold, Hero raises to $3.50, BTN calls $2.50

    Flop: ($7.25, 2 players) 4 T 4
    Hero bets $4.00, BTN calls $4.00

    Turn: ($15.25, 2 players) A
    Hero bets $8.75, BTN calls $8.75

    River: ($32.75, 2 players) 8
    Hero checks, BTN bets $35.25 and is all-in, Hero ???

    Doing some work on this hand and very surprised to see how close it actually is, so I thought I would post it.

    If we assume villain's range is

    www.pokerstrategy.com
    Board: Td4d4hAs8h
    Equity Win Tie
    BU 66.67% 66.67% 0.00% { TT, 44, ATs+, KTs, QTs, JTs, KdQd, KdJd, QdJd, Jd9d, 9d7d, AQo+, ATo }
    BB 33.33% 33.33% 0.00% { Ad3d }

    We have 33% equity, we need 34% to call. Thoughts on range assigned for villain? He doesn't have to be bluffing here that often for this to be a call. I guess he could have some more medium FD's in his range, and he may not actually jam w/ like AJ+ here either.

    EDIT - I also think bet on turn should be slightly bigger so we can jam all diamond rivers. Maybe like $11-12
    Last edited by Cobra_1878; 03-03-2014 at 03:01 PM.
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  2. #2
    I highly doubt he's betting his Tx on he river.

    I also don't know how many ATo we see?

    If he's floaty, he might even peek KJ/KQ with no FD, but that's hard to say.
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    I gave the other grip, I lost a flip for five stacks
  3. #3
    So you've looked at it from your pot odds perspective, now look at it from the other perspective. Villain bets pretty much pot, so he needs his bet to work 50% of the time in order to bet any two here.

    What is your checking range on the river? What is your c/c range on the river? What % of your check range is c/c?
    Quote Originally Posted by Jay-Z
    I'm a couple hands down and I'm tryin' to get back
    I gave the other grip, I lost a flip for five stacks
  4. #4
    Renton's Avatar
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    Easy call pre, I hate 3-betting there.

    I think the turn is probably a check, in a spot where a ton of his flop calling range was ace high. Betting is likely to isolate his range to hands you're losing to or chop/freerolling with. There are a lot more combos of Ax than Tx. Also, you can only shove diamond rivers. If you had A5 instead of A3 you could at least value shove a 5 river.

    Regardless of what was correct on the turn (I personally think it's close either way), you need to plan for a likely outcome like this before you decide on the turn. When you bet that turn, the single most likely outcome of events is for him to call, you to check the river (most don't improve you), and he to jam (he has A8+ a lot and a decent amount of air he'll want to jam along with it).


    I think the river is a call given your reads on this opponent. He may not be good enough to jam the weaker Ax hands in his range like A8s and AJo for value. Even though you have two diamonds in your hand, you don't block any of his diamond bluffing hands like 6d5d+. Given your reads on him being a spaz its possible he could turn a few pairs into bluffs here or even double float a hand like KQo/KJo. You have an ace blocker which narrows his value range by quite a bit. In essence, you're really high in your range here and your card removal is all good and no bad (you block only value hands and none of his bluffs.
  5. #5
    Razvan729's Avatar
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    Isnt better to call here pre ? I would and probably c/c a lot of backdoor draws flops besides A/3 flops
    All posts are just my own opinion about a hand or a general situation... not advices on how you should play...
  6. #6
    Razvan729's Avatar
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    As played i'd c/c turn and river on a decent bet size.
    All posts are just my own opinion about a hand or a general situation... not advices on how you should play...
  7. #7
    Yah given we have a FD, I think I prefer a turn c/c as well. With most other Ax (non FD's) I'm probably betting turn often though.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jay-Z
    I'm a couple hands down and I'm tryin' to get back
    I gave the other grip, I lost a flip for five stacks
  8. #8
    Renton - I don't know why you hate 3b suited aces with low kickers so bad! In the BB I can see it, but in the SB I think I'd def rather 3b than call.

    Also assuming most ppl will fold A4-A9 at least to 3b, and some ppl even folding AT or AJ, then I think you can get ppl to fold a lot of hands that would have otherwise dominated us postflop.

    On top of this, if we do ever have the intention of 5b bluffing, then A2-A5s perform better than most other Axs hands vs villains typical 4b/calling range.
    Last edited by griffey24; 03-04-2014 at 09:54 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jay-Z
    I'm a couple hands down and I'm tryin' to get back
    I gave the other grip, I lost a flip for five stacks
  9. #9
    pocketfours's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by griffey24 View Post
    Renton - I don't know why you hate 3b suited aces with low kickers so bad! In the BB I can see it, but in the SB I think I'd def rather 3b than call.
    Our hand is pretty good vs bu open.


  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by griffey24 View Post
    So you've looked at it from your pot odds perspective, now look at it from the other perspective. Villain bets pretty much pot, so he needs his bet to work 50% of the time in order to bet any two here.

    What is your checking range on the river? What is your c/c range on the river? What % of your check range is c/c?
    My c/c range on this river is pretty small I think.

    If we assume my whole range for getting to the river is: TT+, A2s+, KTs+, QTs+, JTs, ATo+, KJo+, QJo.

    I am checking w/ JJ+, AJs+, A9s, A7s-A5s, A3s-A2s, KTs+, QTs+, JTs, AJo+, KJo+, QJo.

    I am c/c w/ AJs+ and AJo+

    So I am c/c w/ 6/24 = 25% of my range. Villain's shove is hugely +EV.

    I would have to move some of my betting range into my c/c range whilst widening it at the same time. So adding AT and A8s from my betting range to my c/c range whilst widening c/c range w/ A9s-A5s and A3s as well means I am c/c w/ 14/27 or 52% of my range on the river.

    That's very interesting, it looks like a call again.
    Last edited by Cobra_1878; 03-04-2014 at 01:12 PM.
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  11. #11
    Renton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by griffey24 View Post
    Renton - I don't know why you hate 3b suited aces with low kickers so bad! In the BB I can see it, but in the SB I think I'd def rather 3b than call.

    Also assuming most ppl will fold A4-A9 at least to 3b, and some ppl even folding AT or AJ, then I think you can get ppl to fold a lot of hands that would have otherwise dominated us postflop.

    On top of this, if we do ever have the intention of 5b bluffing, then A2-A5s perform better than most other Axs hands vs villains typical 4b/calling range.
    He's in the BB, not the SB. A lot of people (self included) play basically a 3-bet everything strategy from the sb vs co and button opens. I think its fine to 3-bet A5 suited in that case because its obviously a good hand that you're not gonna fold. But if you have a flatting range, it should be in it. I don't think it's particularly close, either. A few thoughts:

    1) 3-betting is more +ev with A3s than call in a vacuum, without a doubt. That can be said for almost any hand though, and its really more about how wide your overall 3-betting range is. Since the 3-betting region can only be so large before it becomes easy to exploit, you have to choose the hands that constitute that region with care. IMO there are loads of better hands than A3s.

    2) In choosing those hands, IMO board coverage is a big priority. 3-betting a straight up linear range of broadways, big suited cards, big aces and suited aces makes our range ridiculously strong on Axx/Kxx/QJx etc boards and very airy and weak on lower boards. In this context, a hand like A3 suited does very little to balance the strength of our hand on a variety of boards; it makes our range stronger on boards we were already very strong on, and weaker on boards that were weak for us. Axx flop is basically a "win" flop for us, a cbet will be highly profitable in a vacuum. So we'd be much better off 3-betting a hand like J3 suited than A3 suited. J3s can rep Axx/Kxx boards but can still flop pairs on other boards.

    3) You're correct that Ax suited hands are decent for 5-betting. They're not the best though. Small pairs and suited broadways both have better equity vs a 99+ AQ'ish range, and the suited broadways can also flat 4bets if they want. A3 suited is most optimal for 5-bet jamming on extremely tight 4-betting ranges, as they have the best equity vs a KK+ range. For this reason I like 3-betting A3s vs EP/MP opens with the option of 5-bet bluffing. In late position I think you'll have plenty of pairs and suited broadways to jam if you want, so I don't think this becomes an overriding consideration as to how to play A3s.

    4) Hero flopped a nut flush draw and turned top pair and had a tough time playing this hand. This is an extremely common result of 3-betting this type of hand preflop. It's just so rarely that comfortable playing a big pot, but is a great hand to play a single raised pot without the initiative.
  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Renton View Post
    He's in the BB, not the SB. A lot of people (self included) play basically a 3-bet everything strategy from the sb vs co and button opens. I think its fine to 3-bet A5 suited in that case because its obviously a good hand that you're not gonna fold. But if you have a flatting range, it should be in it. I don't think it's particularly close, either. A few thoughts:

    1) 3-betting is more +ev with A3s than call in a vacuum, without a doubt. That can be said for almost any hand though, and its really more about how wide your overall 3-betting range is. Since the 3-betting region can only be so large before it becomes easy to exploit, you have to choose the hands that constitute that region with care. IMO there are loads of better hands than A3s.

    2) In choosing those hands, IMO board coverage is a big priority. 3-betting a straight up linear range of broadways, big suited cards, big aces and suited aces makes our range ridiculously strong on Axx/Kxx/QJx etc boards and very airy and weak on lower boards. In this context, a hand like A3 suited does very little to balance the strength of our hand on a variety of boards; it makes our range stronger on boards we were already very strong on, and weaker on boards that were weak for us. Axx flop is basically a "win" flop for us, a cbet will be highly profitable in a vacuum. So we'd be much better off 3-betting a hand like J3 suited than A3 suited. J3s can rep Axx/Kxx boards but can still flop pairs on other boards.

    3) You're correct that Ax suited hands are decent for 5-betting. They're not the best though. Small pairs and suited broadways both have better equity vs a 99+ AQ'ish range, and the suited broadways can also flat 4bets if they want. A3 suited is most optimal for 5-bet jamming on extremely tight 4-betting ranges, as they have the best equity vs a KK+ range. For this reason I like 3-betting A3s vs EP/MP opens with the option of 5-bet bluffing. In late position I think you'll have plenty of pairs and suited broadways to jam if you want, so I don't think this becomes an overriding consideration as to how to play A3s.

    4) Hero flopped a nut flush draw and turned top pair and had a tough time playing this hand. This is an extremely common result of 3-betting this type of hand preflop. It's just so rarely that comfortable playing a big pot, but is a great hand to play a single raised pot without the initiative.
    Great post!

    Yah I agree from an overall defense standpoint, if we are trying to maintain our 3b at a particular level, then by flatting A3s we can 3b other hands we are less comfortable calling overall and thereby defend a higher % vs steals overall.

    I have to stove some more ranges. I could have sworn A3s performed just as well as something like 89s or 44 vs a 4b/call off range, but I should re-check that.
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  13. #13
    Renton's Avatar
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    I have to stove some more ranges. I could have sworn A3s performed just as well as something like 89s or 44 vs a 4b/call off range, but I should re-check that.
    vs TT+ AK

    - 98s 26.99%
    - KQo 28.34%
    - A3s 30.35%
    - QJs 31.86%
    - 55 31.37%

    vs 99+ AQ+

    - KQo 29.47%
    - 98s 29.78%
    - A3s 30.78%
    - QJs 33.33%
    - 55 35.52%

    vs KK+, 50% AK

    - A3s 27.67%
    - 98s 28.86%
    - 66 33.44%


    Well it looks like I wasn't entirely accurate. Pairs and good suited broadways always outperform A3s where card removal isn't a major consideration. IMO since people tend to choose Ax hands as 4-bet bluffing hands in late position, the card removal benefits of holding A3 are probably breakeven and maybe even negative.

    Even though A3s is the worst performer vs the KK+ 50% AK range, card removal plays a much bigger role here when his value range is so few combos of hands, and we block so many of them.
  14. #14
    Renton's Avatar
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    I should add that I am not advocating a super polarized 3-betting range from the blinds. I like 3-betting with good suited connectors like 98s and big suited cards like KTs. I consider these to be effectively "value" 3-bets in the sense that I have the option of 5-betting these hands or flatting 4-bets if I desire. I just think those types of hands provide great benefits to your range postflop and preflop, and A3s does not.
  15. #15
    Razvan729's Avatar
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    What would you say is an optimal 3bet range in blinds v LP facing the average 25-100nl player?
    Seems,again, that i am ,was hopefully, too tight w/ 3betting in this spot since i only have a value 3bet range TT+/ATo+ and some ocasional random hands vs villains that where folding too much v my 3bet,bluffs which arent more then 10combos.
    All posts are just my own opinion about a hand or a general situation... not advices on how you should play...
  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Razvan729 View Post
    What would you say is an optimal 3bet range in blinds v LP facing the average 25-100nl player?
    Seems,again, that i am ,was hopefully, too tight w/ 3betting in this spot since i only have a value 3bet range TT+/ATo+ and some ocasional random hands vs villains that where folding too much v my 3bet,bluffs which arent more then 10combos.
    I think a good question to ask yourself is WHY are you being so tight 3betting? What is your primary reason?

    is it because you don't want to end up folding too much to 4b?
    is it because you're not comfortable playing postflop with crappy hands if called?

    I think one of the important parts of GTO studying is not necessarily so you can implement GTO in all aspects of your game, but rather so you gain better understanding about how often you can be folding (ie: folding to a 4b) or check folding (ie: just c/f your junk hands after you 3b) and the frequencies at which you can do these things WITHOUT being exploited.

    For example - Razvan, given your 3b range and my assumptions on your 4b flatting range. You can probably add a fair bit of 3b hands that you intend on folding to a 4b, and still be far off from being exploited by 4b.
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  17. #17
    Razvan729's Avatar
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    One of main reasons for which i 3bet so tight is me, this who i am in real life also, i feel more comfortable playing on the safe side and in trying to keep a somehow low variance game.
    2nd, because IP villains flat wide 3bet anyway . keeping a low 3bet has prevented ppl from 4bet bluffing me .
    3rd, yes, i get lost when i am called and i am sitting w/ 68s on 28J rainbow for example.
    All posts are just my own opinion about a hand or a general situation... not advices on how you should play...
  18. #18
    Razvan729's Avatar
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    But i understand there is a lot to improve on my game and that's why i have all this ridiculous posts gor a 50nl player.
    All posts are just my own opinion about a hand or a general situation... not advices on how you should play...
  19. #19
    Razvan729's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by griffey24 View Post

    For example - Razvan, given your 3b range and my assumptions on your 4b flatting range. You can probably add a fair bit of 3b hands that you intend on folding to a 4b, and still be far off from being exploited by 4b.
    Plain curiosity. What do you assume is my 4bet fllating and my 5bet range in general? Must be an eady read but curious how easy.
    All posts are just my own opinion about a hand or a general situation... not advices on how you should play...
  20. #20
    Renton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Razvan729 View Post
    What would you say is an optimal 3bet range in blinds v LP facing the average 25-100nl player?
    Seems,again, that i am ,was hopefully, too tight w/ 3betting in this spot since i only have a value 3bet range TT+/ATo+ and some ocasional random hands vs villains that where folding too much v my 3bet,bluffs which arent more then 10combos.
    It depends on whether you're in the sb or the bb, and whether the opener is in the co or the button, and whether he's opening 2, 2.5, or 3x.

    Vs a loose (55-60%) button 2.5xing range, I play the following strategy.

    SB: Almost never call unless theres a fish in the blinds, I 3-bet the top 15-17% of hands pretty much here. Low end of that if there's a really aggro 4-betting player in the BB or if the BU 4-bets a lot. This can be as much as 20% of hands vs a weaker button player AND weak/tight BB player. Basically even though the button is opening a ton, the SB is such a disadvantageous seat that its hard to justify playing much looser than 15-16%. The BB player specifically has a lot of leverage to exploit a wide SB range.

    BB: I 3-bet good suited hands basically for value, stuff like 87s+ QTs+ KTs A9s+ along with 99+ AQ+. This is about 9% of overall hands that could flat a 4bet or 5bet jam for 100bb if you wanted to (i.e. if you thought it was profitable, these are all hands that have decent equity vs a 100bb 4bet/call range. Given that, I add another 9-13% of hands of pretty much complete garbage to this range, essentially any suited hand that I'm not flatting the open with, such as 83s 72s T6s etc, along with even a couple of offsuit hands that are low in my flatting range like 76o 86o. I then call with all of the in-between hands. After its all said and done I'm probably folding about 38% of my cards in the BB vs a 2.5 button open.

    I wouldn't advocate such a loose BB defense strategy to a micro stakes player, and I doubt I'd defend this loose at micro stakes due to rake considerations, but that should give you a decent picture of what's possible to defend vs a wide opening range.
  21. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by Razvan729 View Post
    Plain curiosity. What do you assume is my 4bet fllating and my 5bet range in general? Must be an eady read but curious how easy.
    Tough to say just based on reading posts. My baseline assumption based on some of your posts and stats would be 3b/5b - AA/KK/QQ/AK and maybe some JJ, and 3b/flat 4b with - TT/JJ and maybe some AQ.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jay-Z
    I'm a couple hands down and I'm tryin' to get back
    I gave the other grip, I lost a flip for five stacks
  22. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by Renton View Post
    It depends on whether you're in the sb or the bb, and whether the opener is in the co or the button, and whether he's opening 2, 2.5, or 3x.

    Vs a loose (55-60%) button 2.5xing range, I play the following strategy.

    SB: Almost never call unless theres a fish in the blinds, I 3-bet the top 15-17% of hands pretty much here. Low end of that if there's a really aggro 4-betting player in the BB or if the BU 4-bets a lot. This can be as much as 20% of hands vs a weaker button player AND weak/tight BB player. Basically even though the button is opening a ton, the SB is such a disadvantageous seat that its hard to justify playing much looser than 15-16%. The BB player specifically has a lot of leverage to exploit a wide SB range.

    BB: I 3-bet good suited hands basically for value, stuff like 87s+ QTs+ KTs A9s+ along with 99+ AQ+. This is about 9% of overall hands that could flat a 4bet or 5bet jam for 100bb if you wanted to (i.e. if you thought it was profitable, these are all hands that have decent equity vs a 100bb 4bet/call range. Given that, I add another 9-13% of hands of pretty much complete garbage to this range, essentially any suited hand that I'm not flatting the open with, such as 83s 72s T6s etc, along with even a couple of offsuit hands that are low in my flatting range like 76o 86o. I then call with all of the in-between hands. After its all said and done I'm probably folding about 38% of my cards in the BB vs a 2.5 button open.

    I wouldn't advocate such a loose BB defense strategy to a micro stakes player, and I doubt I'd defend this loose at micro stakes due to rake considerations, but that should give you a decent picture of what's possible to defend vs a wide opening range.
    That's definitely a pretty wide BB defense, but it's pretty decent overall.

    I think I'm folding like 54% on the BB to steal, and folding like 76% of SB to steal. I always have fits of wanting to improve my BB defense though. My main difference with your ranges, and what allows you to defend wider than me is that I feel like I'm 3b a more merged range in my BB which obv lowers the amount I can defend since I'm using reasonable calling hands in my 3b range.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jay-Z
    I'm a couple hands down and I'm tryin' to get back
    I gave the other grip, I lost a flip for five stacks
  23. #23
    Razvan729's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by griffey24 View Post
    Tough to say just based on reading posts. My baseline assumption based on some of your posts and stats would be 3b/5b - AA/KK/QQ/AK and maybe some JJ, and 3b/flat 4b with - TT/JJ and maybe some AQ.
    most of my decent opps have the same ideea, but my real ranges in general (they somehow change vs an specific opp) are:
    3b/5b ---AA/50% KK/TdTh/JdJh/QdQh/AdKh/AdQh
    3b/flat 4b---50%KK/AK/QQ/JJ/TT/AQs
    my 3b/5b stands like 45% v KK+which is more then enough and my 3b/flat4b has like 50% v the average 4bet range

    but since i have this ranges ppl have started calling my 5b a lot wider, i guess that the 5combos besides AA/KK have made them think my 5bet is wider (as combos number) then it really is.
    All posts are just my own opinion about a hand or a general situation... not advices on how you should play...
  24. #24
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    BB vs Button, people don't tend to 4-bet as loosely for value there (as SB v BU). So when he 4-bets you I'd expect to see TT+ AK and a decent amount of bluffs mostly. People tend to just call bu vs bb with AQ/99-88 although I have seen people 4-bet those as well.

    So BB you should be 5-betting JJ+ AK, probably TT/AQs also. Depending on your estimation of his bluffing frequency, you can also jam AQo/AJs 99/88, KQs and QJs. And as his bluffing range gets more and more unbalanced, you can jam farther and farther down from there.
  25. #25
    You have to call, he will have a lot of bluffs in his range. Or at least my range here would have a lot of bluffs if I were him.

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