BROKE AND DISILLUSIONED

[sevenandnine]

Hi all ,i started playing online Texan hold em about 3 months ago,after playing for 3 years on various other online casino sites ,but lately the lame non payment issues ,and 30 days off waiting for payment has worn me out.

so too start with i learn the cards,what pays higher royal flush too high card.Then bought a pack off cards and played pretend so to recognize the cards as they fall,then how the game works ,bb sb etc,then difference between cash ring s&g tournament ,shallow etc

So good to go i thought,join a poker site and play,deposit the money and throw it all into one game,after drinking a few liters off beer,2 hrs later no money slaughtered.
So go buy a book oh it says no beer thats it i thought.
IN FACT I DONT EVEN DRINK ANYMORE ,SO POKER MUST BE GOOD,ITS A BRILLIANT DETER ANT,SOMEONE SHOULD RECOMMEND IT TO THE AA.
And back we go with another deposit put it in play at one table loose go too another loose, go to a higher table loose,go even higher ,wow all the money back,too risky here go back down loose loose loose.eventually 50 gone gone again.
WOW WHAT HAPPENED THIS LOOKED SO EASY ON THE YOU TUBE,I THOUGHT ID BE THE NEW SUPPER STAR .

So back too you tube uh yea play like this play like that,AHH they dont know wot they saying i will formulate my own strategy.

So anyway after asking the neighbors to keep their cat inside at night cause it makes a noise walking across the cabin roof,telling the kids they may never speak again ,breaking my desk and my head at the same time,i still wasn't getting any where.

I did win on a few s&g and did come 12 out off 300 in a tournament,but merely by misreading my cards .

Anyway i have decided that i really need help,i had too say you have been foolish,But not being a fool and had too conceive that you cant do this without advice from an expert

This i wanted to make a money making mission,and me being me have committed myself tothis and am determined to get it right .

The same as a job i need to e trained to do this.

so i have taken a few hundred steps back and am asking for advice

am i playing the good cards wrong cause if as i have learn t AA is good but try close them before the flop .,get lots off re raises go all in someone always calls it ,and wins on muck cards,

difference between tournament play s&g and ring how do you play them

Also iff everyone is using technology may as well use ir as well how do you do that.

Anyway i humbly ask advice in my 3 months off playing i have played 4000 hands and still shows playing too the river percentage is more than pre flop

thanx

[rong]

http://www.flopturnriver.com/pokerfo...pm-123008.html

First, read the threads marked "read first".

[sevenandnine]

cool i will spend a good while reading that before going back to the tables

[MadMojoMonkey]

Feel free to keep asking questions and starting threads in the Beginner's Circle.

I'd say the first thing you're going to want to do is pick a game. You've played a few MTT's and SNG's and ring games, so pick the format you have the most fun playing and make learning that your primary focus.

You can always practice new games on a site like PokerStars using play money. Just remember that if you can't beat the play money tables, you certainly can't beat the real money tables. Also, just because you can beat the play money tables doesn't mean you can beat the real money tables.

Next, you absolutely need to learn Bankroll Management (BRM) to keep yourself from having to make any more deposits than necessary.

Let us know what you've read and what questions you have. We all learn together here. (Except spoonitnow, who clearly knows all )

[sevenandnine]

ok iv read quite a bit ;ill have to do the bankroll thin ,so its choose one cash ring game table and stay with it?
or a s&g with 2 buy in and stick with those
also no use going back to a site that has frustrated me ,so i will try the welcome package at full tilt ,one off people i know says there welcome package is great.
compared too the site i was on don't even give yo a ticket.

The other is the hand history chart,off other players performance ,i get the concept but where do you learn wot the figures mean?

and also a chart on wot value or percentage this hand is how does that work i must have missed it but im sure its somewher,

anyway thers no use boggling the brain but will need them,first thing is to get out off being skeptical,and to scared to go back and release the demon

[MadMojoMonkey]

You don't have to pick one table and stick with it, but this will help to keep you focused on a smaller amount of things to learn while you're getting your basic skills in order. I find it quite helpful to try to isolate what I'm learning down to one thing at a time (and NLHE is a very complex game, with a lot to learn).

Check this thread out:
noobies-first-5k-hands-10nl-guide-links-advice

Poker is a frustrating game, especially when you're starting out and not yet winning over the long term. So don't blame a site for "bad beats". Now, if you're frustrated with their user interface or customer support, that's a good reason to switch sites.

I don't know what you mean by "hand history chart".
Are you talking about a HUD?

and also a chart on wot value or percentage this hand is how does that work i must have missed it but im sure its somewher,

I think you're talking about equity calculations.
To do these, you'll want to download a free software like Equilab (or the less robust: Pokerstove) Do a google search for these programs and start playing around with them.

Your skepticism is well placed with your current level of play (judging by your multiple deposits, jumping up in stakes when you're losing, etc.). A healthy bit of skepticism keeps you questioning your own assumptions about "good" play.

Get in there and play some poker at the lowest stakes you can find. Then start posting hands here and getting advice.

[sevenandnine]

ok that's good i did that ,and got rid off the monkey on my back,wow brilliant support ,i am in game now and focused ,Ive tightened the play ,avoiding the cards i know overplayed before and lost.playing the As avoiding K 10 Q10 J10 and guess wot it works this one great site,4 days off studying pays off,i know thers a lot more to it but i am in a happier frame off mind

[Pascal]

I'll read through this more tomorrow but if you want more replies from more people then type with capitals and full punctuation - it might take you longer but it makes it way easier to read, and you'll get more people reading all of it

[sevenandnine]

oops bad start,

[Luco]

No worries and welcome

[Keith]

reading your players introduce yourself , you say that you are playing on intertops.

WHY ?

Intertops in on one of the few networks available to US players , and US players have to jump through hoops to get money online to play poker so there is a disproportionate number of good players to bad players making the games harder for someone to actually learn to play poker.

MOve to stars and play 2nl , the rake is lower and there a los of bad 2nl players that you can start and learn how to play with less chance of going bust

[sevenandnine]

Yea you got that right ,i spent a bit there and got annihilated.I was wondering why the same players kept waiting to join a table i was playing at,especially on the beginners table .

These same players were playing 5 tables at a time just picking off the beginners.
Good site but really not a site for beginners.
Why INTERTOPS I played at the casino and payment was fast ,and having already cashed out there i thought it would be better to keep playing poker there for fast payout lol.
I have moved ,not all was wasted i learnt a bit ,bit expensive considering i could have got it here at FTR for free.

[sevenandnine]

The 19 hand card play works ,takes a lot to stop the finger clicking raise

[MadMojoMonkey]

Good to hear. Now for the part where you learn poker:

Why does it work?

[sevenandnine]

Good to hear. Now for the part where you learn poker:

Why does it work?

Good question i think
A:You need good discipline too stick to that format,it narrows the possibility off loosing.

B.if you use the cards you can depending on the pot drag more money into it and TRY CLOSE OFF PRE.FLOP? .most off the time you get 3 off a kind ,too full house.When you do go too flop

C: physiologically it gives me more CONFIDENCE in the game.

D:The cards that are K10 QJ are definitely trouble cards ive lost loads on those even if you get them in the street ,something beats them,

Im most probably miles out,good advice thank you,
So what is the correct answer?

[Malbrack]

Im most probably miles out,good advice thank you,
So what is the correct answer?

You gave some decent answers. Also think about how you used to play: you'd play too many hands, you'd call too much, etc. Lots of players at the lowest levels of microstakes play that way. By playing tighter (i.e., fewer starting hands), you flop the hands that exploit those players (top pair-good kicker, top two pair, sets, etc.). They'll happily call a raise with something like A9, so if you raised with AQ, and the flop comes with an Ace, you can get a lot of value from that opponent (because you both have top pair, but you have the better kicker).

[MadMojoMonkey]

There is no single correct answer.

It generally works for beginners because beginners A) over-value mediocre hands, B) bluff too often, and C) call down too light.
By limiting the starting hand range so severely, a beginner is A) folding hands that lead to mediocre spots before the mediocre spots happen, B) holding strong pockets that flop so well that they simply have less bluffing hands in their range, and C) when they call down, they have a solid hand to catch bluffs with.

Also, it works because the Villains you're playing against are not observant of your play and are not adjusting their own ranges to exploit yours. So your adjustment to "play tight when the table's loose" holds up over the long term at the lowest stakes.

As you move up in stakes, this strategy is very transparent and anyone paying attention to you will easily outplay you. Of course, once you outgrow this strategy, you will be able to identify it immediately when you're up against it. So you can be the one who exploits them.

[sevenandnine]

There is no single correct answer.

It generally works for beginners because beginners A) over-value mediocre hands, B) bluff too often, and C) call down too light.
By limiting the starting hand range so severely, a beginner is A) folding hands that lead to mediocre spots before the mediocre spots happen, B) holding strong pockets that flop so well that they simply have less bluffing hands in their range, and C) when they call down, they have a solid hand to catch bluffs with.

Also, it works because the Villains you're playing against are not observant of your play and are not adjusting their own ranges to exploit yours. So your adjustment to "play tight when the table's loose" holds up over the long term at the lowest stakes.

As you move up in stakes, this strategy is very transparent and anyone paying attention to you will easily outplay you. Of course, once you outgrow this strategy, you will be able to identify it immediately when you're up against it. So you can be the one who exploits them.

yEA it works great ,expect ,it does take a lot off discipline not too wander off and start bad habits

[sevenandnine]

Oh wow it works too well, may now not join on the beginners tables,

[eugmac]

Hi, it's good that you've started discovering that there's strategy to winning at poker. However, it's not about memorizing starting hand charts by rote. You mentioned "19 Hands" which is why I say this. Start learning the fundamental concepts. It is very well put in this thread by ISF:

http://www.flopturnriver.com/pokerfo...er-153550.html

[rpm]

Hi, it's good that you've started discovering that there's strategy to winning at poker. However, it's not about memorizing starting hand charts by rote. You mentioned "19 Hands" which is why I say this. Start learning the fundamental concepts. It is very well put in this thread by ISF:

http://www.flopturnriver.com/pokerfo...er-153550.html

well-timed link

[Pascal]

Great well-timed link, thanks eug

[Ltrain]

Good luck learning; it is a long process and you can always get better.

I recently started playing again after 3 years due to the birth of my 2nd child and have been going back to my fundamentals a lot. For what it is worth, here are some fundamental tips I try to keep in mind every time I play that may help:

1. I played for my whole first year going through swings up and down before I finally got good enough to break out of this cycle. It is not enough just to be a "good" player, you need to be good enough to beat the table and the rake. The more hands you play, the thinner your overall edge preflop (the more you will rely on post flop skill) and the more rake will eat into your expected winrate. Think about the rake as part of your poker strategy (i.e., if you blindsteal and everyone folds, most sites do not charge a rake).
2. Heads up, you are playing the person more than the cards. As the number of players increase, the more you are playing the cards and calculating odds. What hands do well with less players (reverse implied odds), what hands do well with many players (good draws)?
3. Position rules, especially in NL. You can play a wider range of hands in position since you have the advantage in hands that miss. If you find you are calling OOP waiting to "see what happens on the flop" you are bleeding money and should fold preflop. Unless it is a multiway flop you will not hit enough to make the call profitable.
4. If you are reading books or articles (there are many great articles on this site as pointed out above), always keep in mind the context of the books or articles. Moves that may work with one level or player may not work in your circumstance. Understand the "what" but also the "why".
5. Consistency is important. Learn to manage tilt, it is a part of the game. If you are on a losing streak, look back at your hands to see what happened. If you were ahead and got sucked out or had good equity going all in, fine, but if you go all in or called down badly beaten, you need to re-evaluate your play as you probably found a leak.

Again, good luck!

[sevenandnine]

Good luck learning; it is a long process and you can always get better.

I recently started playing again after 3 years due to the birth of my 2nd child and have been going back to my fundamentals a lot. For what it is worth, here are some fundamental tips I try to keep in mind every time I play that may help:

1. I played for my whole first year going through swings up and down before I finally got good enough to break out of this cycle. It is not enough just to be a "good" player, you need to be good enough to beat the table and the rake. The more hands you play, the thinner your overall edge preflop (the more you will rely on post flop skill) and the more rake will eat into your expected winrate. Think about the rake as part of your poker strategy (i.e., if you blindsteal and everyone folds, most sites do not charge a rake).
2. Heads up, you are playing the person more than the cards. As the number of players increase, the more you are playing the cards and calculating odds. What hands do well with less players (reverse implied odds), what hands do well with many players (good draws)?
3. Position rules, especially in NL. You can play a wider range of hands in position since you have the advantage in hands that miss. If you find you are calling OOP waiting to "see what happens on the flop" you are bleeding money and should fold preflop. Unless it is a multiway flop you will not hit enough to make the call profitable.
4. If you are reading books or articles (there are many great articles on this site as pointed out above), always keep in mind the context of the books or articles. Moves that may work with one level or player may not work in your circumstance. Understand the "what" but also the "why".
5. Consistency is important. Learn to manage tilt, it is a part of the game. If you are on a losing streak, look back at your hands to see what happened. If you were ahead and got sucked out or had good equity going all in, fine, but if you go all in or called down badly beaten, you need to re-evaluate your play as you probably found a leak.

Again, good luck!

Hi and thanx ,
the help and info you guys have given has been brilliant.
So i give my progress as its the right thing to do.
The balance isn't getting gobbled up in fact sometimes its in a positive balance .like 3 steps forward and 4 back ,but lets put like this
I HAVE A WEEKLY BUDGETED AMOUNT I PLAY WITH AND BEFORE EACH WEEK I WAS GOING IN WITH THAT AMOUNT.SO NOW EXAMPLE .

WEEK 1EPOSIT SAY 40 LEFT WITH 20

WEEK 2EPOSIT 40+THE 20 OVER =60 ,LEFT WITH 35

WEEK 3EPOSIT 40 +35 =75

OK its still a loss but its progress and each week i have more left than the previous.and WILL get to the stage where i might en have too deposit .

SO IM DOING THIS PLAYING THE 19 CARD STRATEGY ,PROTECTING THE BIG BLIND AS IN VIDEO,AND USING YOUR EQUATION OF PUTTING A VALUE ON THE CARDS AS YOU SAY ALL PLAYERS HAVE THE SAME DECISION ITS HOW YOU PLAY THAT SET,
I ALSO ADDED 2 WILD SETS THAT ALWAYS SEEM TO COME UP ON FLOP,WHY?? I DONT KNOW,BUT I VALUE THEM AND IF THEY COME UP ON BB I WILL 4BET AN AVERAGE CALL,AND MOST OFF THE TIME THEIRS NO NEED TO GO ANY FURTHER AS VILLAIN FOLDS.

YOU MIGHT ASK WHY THE FALL IN BALANCE WHEN IT SHOULD BE INCREASING ,MOST OFF IT IS STRAYING OFF THE RULES ,GOING UP IN STAKES ,CBETTING CRAP CARDS IN CASE THEY FOLD.

SO NOW IFF YOU COMMIT A HAND,WELL ITS COMMITTED THEIRS NO USE LIMPING OUT ,EXCEPT ON A ALL IN .

IT IS STRICT DISCIPLINE ESPECIALLY IFF YOU SEE PEOPLE TRIPLING TERE BANK ROLL ON CRAP.BUT THEY ALSO USE UP THE WIN PRETTY FAST,BY CALLING ANY CARD.

I APOLOGIZE IFF MY SCRIPT IS UNCLEAR,I HAVE BEEN BERATED A FEW TIMES OVER IT AS ,ONE OFF OUR CHAIRMAN SAID YOU ALWAYS WRITE ASSUMING

EVERYONE KNOWS WOT YOU ARE SAYING,BECAUSE YOU KNOW DOSNT MEAN THEY KNOW ,

ANYWAY DOES THAT S TRAGEDY SOUND GOOD OR A LOAD OF DUNG

[eugmac]

There is no easy 3-step recipe to becoming a winning player. Playing 19 hands without a clue about fundamental concepts is a guarantee that you will stay a losing player. I'm sorry to break the bad news to you.

I recommend you to read David Sklansky's Theory of Poker. It will introduce you to basic concepts like pot odds, betting for value, semi-bluffing, fold equity and so on. These are the building blocks that can turn you into a winner. Following a starting hand chart blindly will only hinder your progress.

[eugmac]

And re: the last recommendation, the book costs less than what you lose every week. Buy the book, read it, and re-read it. You will save lots and lots of money in the long run.

[Micro2Macro]

And re: the last recommendation, the book costs less than what you lose every week. Buy the book, read it, and re-read it. You will save lots and lots of money in the long run.

This. Any money spent towards something that is a tool for improvement should be seen as an investment as opposed to an expense.

[Malbrack]

Eugmac is right: to develop as a poker player you'll need to move beyond blindly following the 19-hand chart. His suggestion to read Sklansky's book is spot on. Dan Harrington's Harrington on Holdem is also pretty good for beginners (he also discusses things like pot odds, equity, etc.; it's what I started with and it gave me enough of a background in these concepts so I could actually understand the poker theory threads linked in the Beginner's Digest in this forum and some of the beginner areas over on the Two Plus Two forums). If you search around on Google, you should be able to find pdfs. There are a lot of poker concepts you need to learn and be able to use so that you can always adjust to the players you are playing against.

I would also recommend starting with really trying to understand value betting, because that is how most money is made at microstakes. Value betting is not just betting when you have a good hand, but betting when you think your opponent will call with enough worse hands that your bet will be profitable. Learning about value betting will also require you to start thinking about your opponent's range of hands, which, in turn, makes you adjust how you play depending on particular opponents. Let me give you an obvious example. There are many beginner players who will call a raise with any Ace; they will also call a bet on the flop and turn, and sometimes even the river, if they pair their Ace. So, as I mentioned before, if you have AQ and the flop brings an Ace, you can bet for value against the player who will call with A2-AJ. But of course not all players play that way, so what might be a value bet against one opponent might not be against another.

[eugmac]

If you search around on Google, you should be able to find pdfs.

I actually really think buying the hard copy of the book is much better for learning - you have to commit your $25 bucks or whatever it costs and gives you an incentive to read it, and paper books are amazing - you can make notes, stick postits on key pages... If you download some pirate copy that you flip through on Adobe Reader, I believe your level of commitment will not be the same. But maybe I'm just old fashioned...

[sevenandnine]

I actually really think buying the hard copy of the book is much better for learning - you have to commit your $25 bucks or whatever it costs and gives you an incentive to read it, and paper books are amazing - you can make notes, stick postits on key pages... If you download some pirate copy that you flip through on Adobe Reader, I believe your level of commitment will not be the same. But maybe I'm just old fashioned...

Ok thanx ,constructive criticism is good as long as the end result is positive and i see there is a high degree off acknowledgement that the book is the correct investment .

I have loads off time during the day too study i guess i could buy it on AMAZON .

[MadMojoMonkey]

If you haven't downloaded Equilab yet, I recommend it. It's free and you'll use it tons.

For the love of god, start posting some hands for us to comment on!

[sevenandnine]

If you haven't downloaded Equilab yet, I recommend it. It's free and you'll use it tons.

For the love of god, start posting some hands for us to comment on!

I sent a PM off my one game too you as the hand convertor keeps showing error,just in case the players i played against had a moan if their name was on forum,FOR ALL TOO SEE,if you want you can put it on the forum.

[Keith]

do you use a HUD? The best two are pokertracker and holdemmanager . they both have a free 1 month trial. so download one , use it for the free month and then download the other and try the other for a month . during that time hopefully you can win enough to purchase the one you prefer the most. There is also a free one FPDB thats open source but not as good.

a good set of free videos for you to watch is http://crushonlineholdem.com/101-ser...rategy-videos/. Pretty similar to the 19 hansds strategy but the videos explain a lot of the theory and concepts that will help to stop you losing money and to start making money.

[MadMojoMonkey]

I sent a PM off my one game too you as the hand convertor keeps showing error,just in case the players i played against had a moan if their name was on forum,FOR ALL TOO SEE,if you want you can put it on the forum.

I have received no such message.

You can just post the HH file in a new thread. I'm sure you'll get some help from someone (if not me) to convert that hand and fix the initial post.

Also, if it has names, just change them to positions:
BTN, CO, HJ, MP, UTG, BB, SB.

If you aren't comfortable with that terminology, just use seat numbers:
Player 1, Player 2, etc.

Try to avoid using this:
That's just "ad", but replace the quotes with colons.
If you use "ks", it's king of spades. If you use "tc", it's 10 of clubs. If you use "3d", it's 3 of diamonds, ya dig? But don't use this form, it's too big.

DO use this: A
that's A"d", but replace the quotes with colons. You can see that this form is smaller and makes for an easier read. So use a capitol A,K,Q,J,T or a number, then :*:, but replace the * with, s,h,d,c (for the suits).

[sevenandnine]

I actually really think buying the hard copy of the book is much better for learning - you have to commit your $25 bucks or whatever it costs and gives you an incentive to read it, and paper books are amazing - you can make notes, stick postits on key pages... If you download some pirate copy that you flip through on Adobe Reader, I believe your level of commitment will not be the same. But maybe I'm just old fashioned...

O K AND I I AM KICKING MYSELF [,BOOK ON THE WAY.]
But more important tool than the book would be a dictionary ,as you really need to understand what he is saying,it would be pointless reading, iff one just skipped words that you never understood.

And this is why i am mad at myself i have been through this same problem before when i was studying industrial LAW.
At one point in the course we were really battling and could not grasp the end result even though i lecturer had gone through it countless times.

Eventually he said at some stage during our lecture theirs something you DIDN'T UNDERSTAND .AND IT CAN ONLY BE AS SIMPLE AS A WORD AND I SEE NONE OFF YOU HAVE A DICTIONARY.
So he did a course for 2 days with us and its simple.
IFF YOU DON'T UNDERSTAND A WORD GET THE DEFINITION OFF IT AND THEN DI FINE THE WORDS IN THE DEFINITION.

Try this for yourself define in 10 seconds the words AND, PLAY, CARD.

Then try this take a sentence or a paragraph ,and see if you know the definition off each an every word,

I will garentee that if you put that practice into the whole book on poker you're understating off it will be different than your first assumption .

So yes i thought i knew. poker but definitely didn't know how too play it hoes that.???

[spoonitnow]

O K AND I I AM KICKING MYSELF [,BOOK ON THE WAY.]
But more important tool than the book would be a dictionary ,as you really need to understand what he is saying,it would be pointless reading, iff one just skipped words that you never understood.

And this is why i am mad at myself i have been through this same problem before when i was studying industrial LAW.
At one point in the course we were really battling and could not grasp the end result even though i lecturer had gone through it countless times.

Eventually he said at some stage during our lecture theirs something you DIDN'T UNDERSTAND .AND IT CAN ONLY BE AS SIMPLE AS A WORD AND I SEE NONE OFF YOU HAVE A DICTIONARY.
So he did a course for 2 days with us and its simple.
IFF YOU DON'T UNDERSTAND A WORD GET THE DEFINITION OFF IT AND THEN DI FINE THE WORDS IN THE DEFINITION.

Try this for yourself define in 10 seconds the words AND, PLAY, CARD.

Then try this take a sentence or a paragraph ,and see if you know the definition off each an every word,

I will garentee that if you put that practice into the whole book on poker you're understating off it will be different than your first assumption .

So yes i thought i knew. poker but definitely didn't know how too play it hoes that.???

English motherfucker, do you speak it?

[MadMojoMonkey]

Check this out.

http://www.flopturnriver.com/poker-dictionary/

[sevenandnine]

English motherfucker, do you speak it?

entyk nee gologainja

[sevenandnine]

entyk nee gologainja

small braind person with a 2 word vocabulary

[Pascal]

Some of the stuff you say makes absolutely no sense

[sevenandnine]

Some of the stuff you say makes absolutely no sense

OF course it doesn't.
I was using the teaching as an example,Iff someone read it but knew that way off teaching they would immediately know wot i was saying.But because you have never heard off it,no does not make sense.

[MadMojoMonkey]

We all knew what you were doing; that's not what he meant, and he's still right.

I'm trying to help you with your questions, but your grammar is near nonsense at times. Also, there's only 1 'f' in if.

How's the poker going?

[sevenandnine]

Oh wow ,OK i will stick too one line a time instead off doing a few.Yes i know it is bad i even have difficulty reading it myself the next day .
Look sorry its not my intention too annoy you guys its partly due too writing in a few different languages ,where you use a different grammar,

Hows the poker going?
At the moment i am reading the book by DAVID SKLANSKY ,What a brilliant mind he has.

I have applied his concept and altered my play.

Also what he says about a good fold is sometimes better than a good win.Is brilliant.

My win rate is now 2 dollars per hour, as apposed to spending a few hours building,a good balance.then loosing it all in one shit overvalued ALL IN.