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Randomness thread, part two.

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  1. #10276
    Quote Originally Posted by boost View Post
    To be fair, I hear "logic isn't everything" from men on occasion too, but yeah, mostly from women. It's such an ugh statement. What are you even saying? The only way you could possibly come to that conclusion is through (obviously faulty) logic.

    ...are you trying to get offended at everything i type? goodness.

    logic isn't everything - i'm aware. very aware. sometimes logic needs to override stuff. like when dealing with an ex - of course you're going to have an emotional pull to do something, but, that's when logic comes in and is like, "hay, let's do this smarter thing instead!"
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  2. #10277
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  3. #10278
    I could use a lesson for sure! About my ex, it feels too hard to break contact, I dunno, there are still feelings. Maybe that's understandable. And if that was the only girl drama in my life I'd be happy. The girl I'm seeing atm, I'm mostly interested in her friend, and my friend's something inbetween ex-gf and gf is infuriated with me over something my friend did but I took the blame for. At the beginning of the week, at one point she was screaming on the street what a loser I am in front of my friend's appartment where I was at, for all to hear. Not fun. I definitely need to improve my wimmenz skills.
  4. #10279
    Quote Originally Posted by jackvance View Post
    I could use a lesson for sure! About my ex, it feels too hard to break contact, I dunno, there are still feelings. Maybe that's understandable. And if that was the only girl drama in my life I'd be happy. The girl I'm seeing atm, I'm mostly interested in her friend, and my friend's something inbetween ex-gf and gf is infuriated with me over something my friend did but I took the blame for. At the beginning of the week, at one point she was screaming on the street what a loser I am in front of my friend's appartment where I was at, for all to hear. Not fun. I definitely need to improve my wimmenz skills.

    ...what the literal fuck, drama. maybe just realize how much of a drama-queen your ex is being. break it off with current girlfriend. find happiness with yourself, figure out what you want in life, and don't be in such a rush.
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  5. #10280
    Quote Originally Posted by Chelle View Post
    ...are you trying to get offended at everything i type? goodness.

    logic isn't everything - i'm aware. very aware. sometimes logic needs to override stuff. like when dealing with an ex - of course you're going to have an emotional pull to do something, but, that's when logic comes in and is like, "hay, let's do this smarter thing instead!"

    What're you even...

    I wasn't offended or even disagreeing with what you said. Clearly you had trouble comprehending my post. Logic is everything. Consistently solve a problem without it. Let me know how that goes.
  6. #10281
    Quote Originally Posted by boost View Post
    What're you even...

    I wasn't offended or even disagreeing with what you said. Clearly you had trouble comprehending my post. Logic is everything. Consistently solve a problem without it. Let me know how that goes.
    My mistake, sorry about that. I comprehended it completely wrong.
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  7. #10282
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    Quote Originally Posted by boost View Post
    Logic is everything. Consistently solve a problem without it. Let me know how that goes.
    Which tie looks best?
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  8. #10283
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  9. #10284
    Quote Originally Posted by a500lbgorilla View Post
    Which tie looks best?
    You probably could use some sort of design theory to deduce which tie is best with a given suit for a given event, but this also probably would take too much effort to be worthwhile. But while it may not be worth it, we've concluded as much logically-- and if it were ever necessary to do so, it would be doable.
  10. #10285
    Quote Originally Posted by boost View Post
    You probably could use some sort of design theory to deduce which tie is best with a given suit for a given event, but this also probably would take too much effort to be worthwhile. But while it may not be worth it, we've concluded as much logically-- and if it were ever necessary to do so, it would be doable.
    Yeah that is basically what our brain does. It doesn't get the answer by magic. There are algorithms for aesthetics (matching colors and whatnot), what kind of ties the popular people are wearing, fashion in general, the dresscode at whatever event you're wearing a tie for, etc. Not that I know of such an algorithm but it is conceivable.
    Last edited by jackvance; 06-02-2013 at 04:13 PM.
  11. #10286
    Yeah, I mean, an even better response to rilla's leading question is probably: Why didn't you pick the ugly tie?
  12. #10287
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    prediction: boost is about to flip out on me in the other thread
  13. #10288
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    Quote Originally Posted by boost View Post
    You probably could use some sort of design theory to deduce which tie is best with a given suit for a given event, but this also probably would take too much effort to be worthwhile. But while it may not be worth it, we've concluded as much logically-- and if it were ever necessary to do so, it would be doable.
    Do you?

    Or do you sort of wing it?

    Quote Originally Posted by boost View Post
    Yeah, I mean, an even better response to rilla's leading question is probably: Why didn't you pick the ugly tie?
    Both ties look as good as the other to guy A, but not to gal B. It's the nature of fashion, some people just don't have a sense for the leading edge!
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  14. #10289
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    Quote Originally Posted by jackvance View Post
    Yeah that is basically what our brain does. It doesn't get the answer by magic. There are algorithms for aesthetics (matching colors and whatnot), what kind of ties the popular people are wearing, fashion in general, the dresscode at whatever event you're wearing a tie for, etc. Not that I know of such an algorithm but it is conceivable.
    Your brain has never run an algorithm. Only Turing's machines run algorithms.
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  15. #10290
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    Or let's ask, can two ties be indistinguishably acceptable?

    Would you always pick one tie over another in one specific situation given all of history and all of the day you can anticipate? Or can one be as good as another but you'll just go with this guy because, hell, he's in your right hand already?
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  16. #10291
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    If given an option of every meal on Earth, the logical man would die before deciding what to eat.
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  17. #10292
    Do I what? Do I break out a protractor, a graphing calculator, and phone a friend when picking a tie? No. But my decision not to is based on logic. It would not be worth my time to go through the trouble to logically deduce which tie is better for a given suit and given situation. I thought I made this clear when I said the exact same thing. Logic still informed my decision. The decision does not go beyond making a random selection, that was the decision, and logic dictated it. Which one I end up with through random selection was not decided on.

    Where do you get that sense of the leading edge? Fashion Jesus?
    Spoiler:
    why are you being dressed by a gay Puerto Rican?


    Furthermore, I thought both ties were equally stylish, but different. I mean, that's not even possible. It is possible for them to be close enough that it's not worth it to figure out which is better, at which point we would decide to just pick one. And before we do the picking, the decision has already been made.

    Now if we are talking about two ties which are not equally fashionable, then there is a wrong choice-- well two wrong choices, one being picking the uglier tie and one being "winging it." To make the correct choice, you would be using logic. You may not be consciously aware of the logic, or you may hide it from yourself by calling the decision making process intuition or some other such nonsense, but that doesn't change the fact that logic is what picks the correct tie consistently.
    Last edited by boost; 06-02-2013 at 05:13 PM.
  18. #10293
    Quote Originally Posted by a500lbgorilla View Post
    Or let's ask, can two ties be indistinguishably acceptable?

    Would you always pick one tie over another in one specific situation given all of history and all of the day you can anticipate? Or can one be as good as another but you'll just go with this guy because, hell, he's in your right hand already?
    I touched on this already. Practically two can be equally acceptable, because logic tells us to pick a damn tie before we miss the event.

    If they are not indistinguishably acceptable, then you should always pick the same tie for the same event given the same history. But of course the next business meeting(which for the sake of this argument is indistinguishable from the previous one while also being.. ugh.. you get the point) you attend, you should always pick the second best tie because no matter how good a tie looks, you look like a bum wearing the same one all the time. This is all if this than that. None of it is gifted to you by Fashion Jesus.

    Quote Originally Posted by a500lbgorilla View Post
    If given an option of every meal on Earth, the logical man would die before deciding what to eat.
    I refuse to believe you don't see the goatse like gaping hole in this proverb.
  19. #10294
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    Quote Originally Posted by boost View Post
    Do I what? Do I break out a protractor, a graphing calculator, and phone a friend when picking a tie? No. But my decision not to is based on logic.

    It would not be worth my time to go through the trouble to logically deduce which tie is better for a given suit and given situation.
    Why? Because your feel like that's true or you can demonstrate it is?

    Eventually you'll have to bust out that protractor and built a framework in which something is allowed to be true, or else, you ain't being fully logical.

    And that shit is just exhuasting. So why not wing it?

    Every day. Every way.

    You know you do.

    Quote Originally Posted by boost View Post
    I thought I made this clear when I said the exact same thing. Logic still informed my decision. The decision does not go beyond making a random selection, that was the decision, and logic dictated it. Which one I end up with through random selection was not decided on.
    The opposite of logic isn't random.

    There's an intelligence behind whichever tie you pick, but that intelligence is not wholly described by logic.

    You can try to niggle by saying 'not yet', but I'd place my bet on 'not ever'.

    Logic is a gorgeous thing. But it takes tremendous effort to be logical. It takes work. And lazy is just to easy.
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  20. #10295
    Quote Originally Posted by a500lbgorilla View Post
    Your brain has never run an algorithm. Only Turing's machines run algorithms.
    Our brain is a biological neural network that implements a wide range of algorithms. Let's say you do arithmetic in your head, there you go. Essentially the brain is a network of electric pulses, not as efficient as binary computers at math but much better at sorting information and more flexible, better at coming up with solutions for problems if there is lacking or limited information.

    Quote Originally Posted by a500lbgorilla View Post
    Or let's ask, can two ties be indistinguishably acceptable?

    Would you always pick one tie over another in one specific situation given all of history and all of the day you can anticipate? Or can one be as good as another but you'll just go with this guy because, hell, he's in your right hand already?
    Sorry but those questions are pretty trivial. It simply depends on your algorithm.

    Quote Originally Posted by a500lbgorilla View Post
    If given an option of every meal on Earth, the logical man would die before deciding what to eat.
    Only if your algorithm sucks. Being logical doesn't mean you have to think about every option available. Once your hunger passes a certain threshold, just pick the most easily accessible nutritional thing, that sounds like a nice algorithm. One that I frequently use.
  21. #10296
    Quote Originally Posted by Chelle View Post
    So - how the fuck do you make saggy skin go away? IDK if it's saggy like a lot of wimmens have it, but, since I got up to like 164 lbs, and now I'm down to 104.8 lbs, I feel flabby and gross. Still feel fat, but, that's cause I'm a retarded wimmens.

    kinda' bringing this back, i need halps. preese halps.
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  22. #10297
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    Quote Originally Posted by boost View Post
    If they are not indistinguishably acceptable, then you should always pick the same tie for the same event given the same history. But of course the next business meeting(which for the sake of this argument is indistinguishable from the previous one while also being.. ugh.. you get the point) you attend, you should always pick the second best tie because no matter how good a tie looks, you look like a bum wearing the same one all the time. This is all if this than that. None of it is gifted to you by Fashion Jesus.
    Pick the same tie as you did last time, unless you wore that tie last time.
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  23. #10298
    Quote Originally Posted by a500lbgorilla View Post
    Why? Because your feel like that's true or you can demonstrate it is?

    Eventually you'll have to bust out that protractor and built a framework in which something is allowed to be true, or else, you ain't being fully logical.

    And that shit is just exhuasting. So why not wing it?

    Every day. Every way.

    You know you do.



    The opposite of logic isn't random.

    There's an intelligence behind whichever tie you pick, but that intelligence is not wholly described by logic.

    You can try to niggle by saying 'not yet', but I'd place my bet on 'not ever'.

    Logic is a gorgeous thing. But it takes tremendous effort to be logical. It takes work. And lazy is just to easy.
    Lazy is just as easy in certain situations, like picking a tie if you have any sort of fashion sense, or don't care about looking awful. But you are using logic to chose lazy. Lazy is the choice, not which tie you pick once you've made the choice to be lazy. You chose to roll the dice , not to hit a 7.
  24. #10299
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    Quote Originally Posted by jackvance View Post
    Our brain is a biological neural network that implements a wide range of algorithms.
    Hahahaha, nah son.

    Our brain is something else.

    Algorithms are a set of instructions 'run' by a machine that can manipulate symbols on a 'tape'.

    You may be able to get a Turing machine to simulate the human brain, but the human brain ain't in that ballpark.
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  25. #10300
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    Quote Originally Posted by boost View Post
    Lazy is just as easy in certain situations, like picking a tie if you have any sort of fashion sense, or don't care about looking awful. But you are using logic to chose lazy. Lazy is the choice, not which tie you pick once you've made the choice to be lazy. You chose to roll the dice , not to hit a 7.
    Fashion sense? don't care? looking awful? DOES NOT COMPUTE1010101010101011111
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  26. #10301
    Rilla, I like you, but sometimes I think you think you're smarter than you are.

    The trivial is just the gap that intuition falls into when it is shown that non trivial decisions are best made logically. Why you insist on giving quarter in this way to intuition is beyond me.

    But the fun thing is, trivial is just that, trivial. Matters of any importance, even the most trivial (heh..), are best addressed with logic. I still think you're wrong as wrong gets, but even if I concede, my initial claim is barely diminished.
  27. #10302
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    Quote Originally Posted by a500lbgorilla View Post
    Hahahaha, nah son.

    Our brain is something else.

    Algorithms are a set of instructions 'run' by a machine that can manipulate symbols on a 'tape'.

    You may be able to get a Turing machine to simulate the human brain, but the human brain ain't in that ballpark.
    Or, how does the machine develop its own instructions?

    And that question runs deep.

    Maybe instead, the brain is a predictive device that recognizes a situation, adds together all of the related memories it has to project for an outcome, and bases any actions on the future it predicts to unfold.

    Under this understanding, equal ties can be chosen on any trivial bases because no one cares, and because I've had a good experience with Life cereal in the past, I'll gravitate to Life cereal today when deciding what breakfast food to buy.

    No algorithm necessary. Only prediction.

    But I dunno, I don't know the secrets of the brain.
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  28. #10303
    Quote Originally Posted by a500lbgorilla View Post
    Hahahaha, nah son.

    Our brain is something else.

    Algorithms are a set of instructions 'run' by a machine that can manipulate symbols on a 'tape'.

    You may be able to get a Turing machine to simulate the human brain, but the human brain ain't in that ballpark.
    You're talking about computer algorithms.

    al·go·rithm [al-guh-rith-uhm]
    noun
    a set of rules for solving a problem in a finite number of steps, as for finding the greatest common divisor.

    From wikipedia:
    Most algorithms are intended to be implemented as computer programs. However, algorithms are also implemented by other means, such as in a biological neural network (for example, the human brain implementing arithmetic or an insect looking for food), in an electrical circuit, or in a mechanical device.
  29. #10304
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    Quote Originally Posted by boost View Post
    Rilla, I like you, but sometimes I think you think you're smarter than you are.

    The trivial is just the gap that intuition falls into when it is shown that non trivial decisions are best made logically. Why you insist on giving quarter in this way to intuition is beyond me.

    But the fun thing is, trivial is just that, trivial. Matters of any importance, even the most trivial (heh..), are best addressed with logic. I still think you're wrong as wrong gets, but even if I concede, my initial claim is barely diminished.
    While I recommend logic everywhere you can find it, you just don't have enough logic in you to tackle this world logically. You're gonna have to cut some corners. No one thinks less of you for it.
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  30. #10305
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    Quote Originally Posted by jackvance View Post
    You're talking about computer algorithms.

    al·go·rithm [al-guh-rith-uhm]
    noun
    a set of rules for solving a problem in a finite number of steps, as for finding the greatest common divisor.

    From wikipedia:
    Most algorithms are intended to be implemented as computer programs. However, algorithms are also implemented by other means, such as in a biological neural network (for example, the human brain implementing arithmetic or an insect looking for food), in an electrical circuit, or in a mechanical device.
    Yes I am, but any extension you take I'll take umbrage with. You don't run algorithms as much as you feel like you do... as much as you think you do.

    We got to logic last. It's the cream on top, not the thing that's driven us here.
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  31. #10306
    Quote Originally Posted by a500lbgorilla View Post
    Yes I am, but any extension you take I'll take umbrage with. You don't run algorithms as much as you feel like you do... as much as you think you do.

    We got to logic last. It's the cream on top, not the thing that's driven us here.
    Hey I'm a civil engineer computer science and my specialization is artificial intelligence . I know all about what you're saying but all decision making is implementing some algorithm. Take the wiki example of the insect finding, pretty similar to your example of a person selecting food.
  32. #10307
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    Quote Originally Posted by jackvance View Post
    but all decision making is implementing some algorithm.
    So let's say someone disagrees with you fully, how do you demonstrate that you've the right of it?

    edit alright, that's a scrum move. I'm just wondering where these algorithms come from? Or what you mean by algorithm. These semantics and whatnot that I learned from another thread.
    Last edited by a500lbgorilla; 06-02-2013 at 05:56 PM.
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  33. #10308
    Quote Originally Posted by a500lbgorilla View Post
    While I recommend logic everywhere you can find it, you just don't have enough logic in you to tackle this world logically. You're gonna have to cut some corners. No one thinks less of you for it.
    But you use logic to decide when to cut the corners. Once you make the decision, there is not some alternative to logic that takes place.

    Quote Originally Posted by a500lbgorilla View Post
    Yes I am, but any extension you take I'll take umbrage with. You don't run algorithms as much as you feel like you do... as much as you think you do.

    We got to logic last. It's the cream on top, not the thing that's driven us here.
    Whether we always had it or we figured it out yesterday is irrelevant. It's the best system to deal with the world. When there isn't time or value in implementing the system, we logically decide to forgo the process.
  34. #10309
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    Quote Originally Posted by boost View Post
    But you use logic to decide when to cut the corners. Once you make the decision, there is not some alternative to logic that takes place.



    Whether we always had it or we figured it out yesterday is irrelevant. It's the best system to deal with the world. When there isn't time or value in implementing the system, we logically decide to forgo the process.
    Logic is hard and you don't use it. You probably didn't use it at all today, though you'll claim you did.

    Logic is the cumbersome bullshit you use to prove your insight was right all along and that others will use as the rules for which bullshit is acceptable in proving themselves right.

    The bullshit you use to make your decisions is far less rigorous than true logic, boost. Because it isn't logic. It's winging it and assuming you're right and shrugging it off when you're not. I.E. being a human.
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  35. #10310
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    Logic takes days, picking a tie takes seconds, is the point I'm driving for.

    You don't internalize logic. Your insights, though right, aren't logical, they're insightful.

    edit You don't internalize the logic, you predict the logic... "oh it's going to be overhere somewhere. Oh here it is, let's follow it"

    You don't run an algorithm, you just decide and that decision might guess at what an appropriate algorithm might be.

    There's no science to the best step forward, no sussed out math, so don't sweat it when you've got to play it by ear because the big secret is you've always played it by ear.
    Last edited by a500lbgorilla; 06-02-2013 at 06:17 PM.
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  36. #10311
    Logic can mean two things, you're talking about more serious logic like you'd see in proving some form of maths for example (obviously can be applied to real life) and valid reasoning. That example you gave about past experiences guiding our decisions is the latter and therefore logic.

    After all the hate semantics gets that should solve that argument.
  37. #10312
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    Quote Originally Posted by ImSavy View Post
    Logic can mean two things, you're talking about more serious logic like you'd see in proving some form of maths for example (obviously can be applied to real life) and valid reasoning. That example you gave about past experiences guiding our decisions is the latter and therefore logic.

    After all the hate semantics gets that should solve that argument.
    eh, so it goes.
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  38. #10313
    You are assigning some weird narrow definition to logic, not sharing it with the rest of us, yet lambasting us for not being able to see it ourselves.

    If this, then that. This is logic. How you get through a day without using it, I do not know. How you can state that logic necessarily takes some arbitrary length of time... I mean, really? What are you even...
  39. #10314
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    Quote Originally Posted by boost View Post
    You are assigning some weird narrow definition to logic, not sharing it with the rest of us, yet lambasting us for not being able to see it ourselves.

    If this, then that. This is logic. How you get through a day without using it, I do not know. How you can state that logic necessarily takes some arbitrary length of time... I mean, really? What are you even...
    Am I? "Reasoning conducted or assessed according to strict principles of validity: "experience is a better guide to this than deductive logic"." ::: google: define logic

    That fits.

    You don't use strict anything when picking a tie. If you did, you'd be able to express these strict principles of validity and allow us to play with them to predict all of your future tie wearing decisions. Until you decide to break with the method and wear a tie no one would have guessed because logic be damned!
    Last edited by a500lbgorilla; 06-02-2013 at 06:28 PM.
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  40. #10315
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    Keep digging into your bag 'o argument tricks, boost.
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  41. #10316
    Quote Originally Posted by a500lbgorilla View Post
    So let's say someone disagrees with you fully, how do you demonstrate that you've the right of it?

    edit alright, that's a scrum move. I'm just wondering where these algorithms come from? Or what you mean by algorithm. These semantics and whatnot that I learned from another thread.
    Yeah it's a bit of a semantical thing, but the concept of an algorithm is that it is just a set of operations to complete, which can be executed by a lot of things.

    Quote Originally Posted by a500lbgorilla View Post
    Logic takes days, picking a tie takes seconds, is the point I'm driving for.

    You don't internalize logic. Your insights, though right, aren't logical, they're insightful.
    Ok this is where you're wrong. You seem to assume (like many people) that logic has to go over every possible option. I can make an algorithm for choosing a tie that goes like this: 1. Remember the ties that are worn by your peers at this event 2. Look at the first 5 ties you come across in your closet 3. Choose the one which most closely resembles the average of the ones you have seen.

    Even the baseline of how much your parents love you follows a simple algorithm. It peaks around the time you become fertile. The algorithms that we use are very complex because our brain is complex. That is why it takes 12+ years of childish stupidity to make it work properly.
  42. #10317
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    Quote Originally Posted by jackvance View Post
    Yeah it's a bit of a semantical thing, but the concept of an algorithm is that it is just a set of operations to complete, which can be executed by a lot of things.


    Ok this is where you're wrong. You seem to assume (like many people) that logic has to go over every possible option. I can make an algorithm for choosing a tie that goes like this: 1. Remember the ties that are worn by your peers at this event 2. Look at the first 5 ties you come across in your closet 3. Choose the one which most closely resembles the average of the ones you have seen.

    Even the baseline of how much your parents love you follows a simple algorithm. It peaks around the time you become fertile. The algorithms that we use are very complex because our brain is complex. That is why it takes 12+ years of childish stupidity to make it work properly.
    So we write our algorithms? Because we try one and it fails and we calibrate it until it succeeds?

    While I'm sure you could write an algorithm that learns in this manner, it would only show that algorithms can approximate and simulate the brain, not that the brain runs algorithms.

    It might be a bit of my personal affinity away from computer science, but I suspect the brain is unlike a Turing machine indeed. If for no other reason that the continuum can't be rendered in 1s and 0s.

    And there's a reason I assume logic has to go over every possible option, because logic has to go over every possible option. For you to say, "it's good enough just to go to 5" without demonstrating logically why there's no reason to go to 6 is falling outside of logic and into the realm of "because fuck 6!"

    If you have no reason to believe a better tie lies beyond the 5th tie, how do you know? And if there is a better tie beyond tie 5, what logically makes you decide it's not worth scavenging for?

    Somewhere, some illogical deciding agent is going to say, "Fuck off about ties, we need to eat!"
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  43. #10318
    What is illogical about saying "if X time is left before needing to eat, only Y time can be dedicated to choosing a tie"?

    You seem to think that all these operations have to happen in a vacuum and cannot be edited once they start. You can logically allot time to various activities, and have these allotments influence the logical fulfillment of said activities.
  44. #10319
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    Quote Originally Posted by boost View Post
    How you can state that logic necessarily takes some arbitrary length of time... I mean, really? What are you even...
    I just kind of guess at logic and trust that I could pull it out of my ass sufficiently enough to ward off naysayers and sleep well at night. Y'know, the same shit you pull.
    Last edited by a500lbgorilla; 06-02-2013 at 06:56 PM.
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  45. #10320
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    Quote Originally Posted by boost View Post
    What is illogical about saying "if X time is left before needing to eat, only Y time can be dedicated to choosing a tie"?

    You seem to think that all these operations have to happen in a vacuum and cannot be edited once they start. You can logically allot time to various activities, and have these allotments influence the logical fulfillment of said activities.
    An endless series of why's which requires a framework in which something can be true.

    Why do we have to eat? Because we need to survive... or some such needs to build up to Why do we need a tie? Because of reasons.

    And no one does that ever.

    While you can pick a tie and be content that you're doing it for logical reasons, you're not doing it for logical reasons. Just human ones.
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  46. #10321
    I don't think that is illogical. I think that's the most logical decision you can make. Realising your time is better spent doing something else.

    I'm not so sure I agree that the brain is anything more than a quite complicated machine though. We definitely do run algorithms in our heads all the time though regardless of whether you think our brain is like a computer anyway. Next time you make a decision about something after you have made the decision think about how your brain came to that conclusion and it'll most likely be algorithmic.
  47. #10322
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    Quote Originally Posted by ImSavy View Post
    I don't think that is illogical.
    Why do you say that?

    Quote Originally Posted by ImSavy View Post
    Realising your time is better spent doing something else.
    How do you logically realize this?

    Quote Originally Posted by ImSavy View Post
    Next time you make a decision about something after you have made the decision think about how your brain came to that conclusion and it'll most likely be algorithmic.
    Well if everyone's just going to treat me like a guy who doesn't know what he's thinking, I think now is a good time to bow out. Or do I?
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  48. #10323
    We have a bunch of hardwired algorithms, and a lot we have to learn in our lifetime. Let's say we have a "main" that when your brain gets the hunger signal you want to eat (or if you're a baby you just cry because you can't fetch your own food), that wants to sleep, wants to self-accomplish, find a suitable mate, crave social acceptance, etc. Our learning algorithms also have very basic buiding blocks. We deduce that things that are close together in time or space have something to do with each-other. If I press a switch the light goes on. That's how we learn causal effects.

    A lot of things are partially hardwired. Like language, we have structures in place for understanding grammar but we need to learn the words. Another example, we know hardcoded what emotions mean, but we need to learn how to express them by mimicking our parents.

    Other things are fully hardwired. Like our perception, which most of my class was about. Interesting is for example the way we perceive motion. Basically your brain stores images of previous vision (snapshots) and runs them through an AND gate with what you are seeing now to find out what is different. And we do this comparison at different frequencies, for differing speeds. That is why we can't see really fast motion, but also, and most don't know this one, we also can't see really slow motion. (that is why the bad guy goes for his gun slowly, trying to not make you see it by going at a speed slower than your slowest comparison frequency)

    Ok going off on a bit of a tangent here, but just to show how algorithmic a lot of the stuff we do is, even though we're not aware of it. And sorry if this sounds preachy, i'm a technical guy :P


    Quote Originally Posted by a500lbgorilla View Post
    While I'm sure you could write an algorithm that learns in this manner, it would only show that algorithms can approximate and simulate the brain, not that the brain runs algorithms.
    Why is it only simulate? After all the brain is just electrical pulses, nothing too outlandish or fancy there. What's the difference?
    Last edited by jackvance; 06-02-2013 at 07:14 PM.
  49. #10324
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    Quote Originally Posted by jackvance View Post
    We have a bunch of hardwired algorithms, and a lot we have to learn in our lifetime. Let's say we have a "main" that when your brain gets the hunger signal you want to eat (or if you're a baby you just cry because you can't fetch your own food), that wants to sleep, wants to self-accomplish, etc. Our learning algorithms also have very basic buiding blocks. We deduce that things that are close together in time or space have something to with each-other. If I press a switch the light goes on. That's how we learn causal effects.

    A lot of things are partially hardwired. Like language, we have structures in place for understanding grammar but we need to learn the words. Another example, we know hardcoded what emotions mean, but we need to learn how to express them by mimicking our parents.

    Other things are fully hardwired. Like our perception, which most of my class was about. Interesting is for example the way we perceive motion. Basically your brain stores images of previous vision (snapshots) and runs them through an AND gate with what you are seeing now to find out what is different. And we do this comparison at different frequencies, for differing speeds. That is why we can't see really motion, but also, and most don't know this one, we also can't see really slow motion. (that is why the bad guy goes for his gun slowly, trying to not make you see it by going at a speed slower than your slowest comparison frequency)

    Ok going off on a bit of a tangent here, but just to show how algorithmic a lot of the stuff we do is, even though we're not aware of it. And sorry if this sounds preachy, i'm a technical guy :P
    So while you imagined all of this, what algorithm was at work?

    edit while this is me being argumentative, if you want to be technical I am interested. How far up before we hit the top?
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  50. #10325
    I just wrote a reply about humans wants and needs and my browser crashed so you're getting a tl;dr version.

    You use valid reasoning that your time spent picking a tie is less EV than doing Y. You have to make this logical deduction for this to happen. We however learn this from a very early age so we don't always go through the thought process fully whilst coming to that conclusion, but the logic is there.
  51. #10326
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    Quote Originally Posted by ImSavy View Post
    I just wrote a reply about humans wants and needs and my browser crashed so you're getting a tl;dr version.

    You use valid reasoning that your time spent picking a tie is less EV than doing Y. You have to make this logical deduction for this to happen. We however learn this from a very early age so we don't always go through the thought process fully whilst coming to that conclusion, but the logic is there.
    Tomorrow, write out the ev calculation for any novel decision you make. Make it fully explicit.

    You won't. You can't. If you can't express it, how do you know it's logical? This wave your hands and see how it's basically logical is BS.

    Once again, the point I am driving for is that while logic is awesome and we all have been taught heaps of it, it isn't how we operate. How could it be?

    Logic is rigorous. Logic can be fantastical and unworldly. Logic can drive to powerful conclusion. But when you can't wrap your head around a problem, how do you act? Basically as always. Pull out the tricks you know, apply the tools you're familiar with, and keep at it. For the real world it might seem logical but it's only logical when the final solution is demonstrably the only solution, or one of a set of only solutions.

    What you call logical isn't logical, it's just that you feel like it's close enough as makes no odds.
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  52. #10327
    Logic is the domain of the higher mammalian brain. We also have our lower mammalian brain and reptilian brains operating in variable proportions throughout the day depending on various factors.

    You can't say we're purely logical beings, nor can you deny that we have the capacity for employing logic. Both logic and visceral subconscious motives exist often simultaneously, we're complicated like that.
  53. #10328
    Imagined as in I made it all up? lol

    Anyway, algorithms used.. accessing relevant memories (this is what a neural network excels at and probably why our brain is one), whichever way/algorithm I use to formulate that into english, checks for coherency and relevance, that kinda stuff. But this is all high level thinking with a ton of stuff at work at once, it's more clear when you talk about more specific things like learning to walk by falling down and getting up, until you know exactly which muscles to pull in what way to get the motion you need. You're only doing this semi-consciously, you don't control actual muscles, your brain does all the legwork there.
  54. #10329
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    I can't believe that people with experience playing poker can't understand how decisions are made outside of logic. We want it to be inside logic, but the game has a way of punishing our wise moves and rewarding our mistakes (thanks Fnord's quote in someone's sig), and you can't tell me that it doesn't affect how you play moving forward.
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  55. #10330
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    Quote Originally Posted by d0zer View Post
    Logic is the domain of the higher mammalian brain. We also have our lower mammalian brain and reptilian brains operating in variable proportions throughout the day depending on various factors.

    You can't say we're purely logical beings, nor can you deny that we have the capacity for employing logic. Both logic and visceral subconscious motives exist often simultaneously, we're complicated like that.
    hahaha, me and you hit on this at the same time.
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  56. #10331
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    Quote Originally Posted by jackvance View Post
    Imagined as in I made it all up? lol

    Anyway, algorithms used.. accessing relevant memories (this is what a neural network excels at and probably why our brain is one), whichever way/algorithm I use to formulate that into english, checks for coherency and relevance, that kinda stuff. But this is all high level thinking with a ton of stuff at work at once, it's more clear when you talk about more specific things like learning to walk by falling down and getting up, until you know exactly which muscles to pull in what way to get the motion you need. You're only doing this semi-consciously, you don't control actual muscles, your brain does all the legwork there.
    YES

    What is the algorithm that makes up algorithms? ... ad infinitum?

    The algorithm is a top down instruction, shit in nature always seems to be bottom up to me.

    The algorithms would need to emerge, not drive.

    Blah blah meow chow. I think I've hit all my points time and again.
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  57. #10332
    Quote Originally Posted by a500lbgorilla View Post
    Tomorrow, write out the ev calculation for any novel decision you make. Make it fully explicit.

    You won't. You can't. If you can't express it, how do you know it's logical? This wave your hands and see how it's basically logical is BS.

    Once again, the point I am driving for is that while logic is awesome and we all have been taught heaps of it, it isn't how we operate. How could it be?

    Logic is rigorous. Logic can be fantastical and unworldly. Logic can drive to powerful conclusion. But when you can't wrap your head around a problem, how do you act? Basically as always. Pull out the tricks you know, apply the tools you're familiar with, and keep at it. For the real world it might seem logical but it's only logical when the final solution is demonstrably the only solution, or one of a set of only solutions.

    What you call logical isn't logical, it's just that you feel like it's close enough as makes no odds.
    Valid reasoning is logic.

    If we're making a call an all in on the river to close action in poker we have to put our opponent on a range to decide if our call is going to be profitable or not. When we do this we use all the information we have available to us to logically deduce a range. Would you disagree that this is logic?

    When I do this I imagine I do it pretty badly because I'm not that great at poker but I'm still using logic to do it. Other people who do it better are also using logic to do it however they may know something that I don't which allows them to use more complete logic.

    When people found out that washing hands before surgery decreased deaths they deduced this logically from seeing the results, there wasn't any reason to explain why this happened because the whole theory of infection didn't exist.

    Quote Originally Posted by a500lbgorilla View Post
    I can't believe that people with experience playing poker can't understand how decisions are made outside of logic. We want it to be inside logic, but the game has a way of punishing our wise moves and rewarding our mistakes (thanks Fnord's quote in someone's sig), and you can't tell me that it doesn't affect how you play moving forward.
    You said in general day to day life we don't use logic at all. No one said our decisions can't become illogical due to emotion or whatever other reasons there may be. The point was more that we do use logic all the time.
    Last edited by Savy; 06-02-2013 at 07:45 PM.
  58. #10333
    Quote Originally Posted by a500lbgorilla View Post
    hahaha, me and you hit on this at the same time.
    I'm not sure if this is the point you've been trying to make or not, but as far as I can tell, most people massively overestimate how much conscious logical thought goes into most of their decisions and completely dismiss the subconscious aspects of decision making. We want to believe we're "in control" despite rarely if ever being in any mode other than reactionary to stimulus. Often our higher-brain logic is used to justify decisions after they are made as opposed to being the driving force behind them.

    If free will even exists, it exists for a small percentage of decisions and the vast majority we make are just auto-pilot.
  59. #10334
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    Quote Originally Posted by d0zer View Post
    I'm not sure if this is the point you've been trying to make or not, but as far as I can tell, most people massively overestimate how much conscious logical thought goes into most of their decisions and completely dismiss the subconscious aspects of decision making. We want to believe we're "in control" despite rarely if ever being in any mode other than reactionary to stimulus. Often our higher-brain logic is used to justify decisions after they are made as opposed to being the driving force behind them.

    If free will even exists, it exists for a small percentage of decisions and the vast majority we make are just auto-pilot.
    Yeah, that was inherent to the point I was trying to make. I didn't broach it directly, but essentially, we aren't top down creatures. We carry with us all the ways of those that came before us. In how our cells operate and in how our brain operates. Logic is a consequence of our ability to predict and desire to predict better, not an element of how we be as humans.
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  60. #10335
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    Quote Originally Posted by ImSavy View Post
    Valid reasoning is logic.1

    If we're making a call an all in on the river to close action in poker we have to put our opponent on a range to decide if our call is going to be profitable or not. When we do this we use all the information we have available to us to logically deduce a range. Would you disagree that this is logic? 2

    When I do this I imagine I do it pretty badly because I'm not that great at poker but I'm still using logic to do it. Other people who do it better are also using logic to do it however they may know something that I don't which allows them to use more complete logic.3

    When people found out that washing hands before surgery decreased deaths they deduced this logically from seeing the results, there wasn't any reason to explain why this happened because the whole theory of infection didn't exist.4


    You said in general day to day life we don't use logic at all. No one said our decisions can't become illogical due to emotion or whatever other reasons there may be. The point was more that we do use logic all the time.5
    1, sure is.

    2, nope. But I don't claim to be fully logical. I just know that if we got into a scrum over other choices, you'd win.

    3, so even you see, you're not logical, you're playing pretend.

    4, nope, but it wasn't entirely logical, just a good idea. Once again, I welcome people trying to fold logic into their lives as a robust practice, but let's not fool ourselves as to what we're doing. Sometimes good ideas are bad, as the thirsty man who drank from the sea would have learned. How could water possibly harm a parched man?! Logic how have you failed me?

    5, what you use is logic lite.
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  61. #10336
    Quote Originally Posted by a500lbgorilla View Post
    An endless series of why's which requires a framework in which something can be true.

    Why do we have to eat? Because we need to survive... or some such needs to build up to Why do we need a tie? Because of reasons.

    And no one does that ever.

    While you can pick a tie and be content that you're doing it for logical reasons, you're not doing it for logical reasons. Just human ones.

    You don't need to do it every time. Why would you? That would be an illogical waste of time.

    You're grasping at straws to prove a point that proves nothing. I'm hungry and am growing weary of wasting anymore time on this argument.
  62. #10337
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    Quote Originally Posted by boost View Post
    You don't need to do it every time. Why would you? That would be an illogical waste of time.

    You're grasping at straws to prove a point that proves nothing. I'm hungry and am growing weary of wasting anymore time on this argument.
    hahaha, alright boost. I'll just logically grasp at straws.
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  63. #10338
    You seem to be under the impression that logic has always got to be correct. In the first type of logic I spoke about in my original post it has to be correct and vigorous. In the latter type of logic it doesn't.

    If there are two options A and B we have to choose from and all the information we have points to A being the right answer we'd use valid reasoning to deduce we should pick A. Some % of the time we are going to be wrong and the answer is B because we have incomplete information. Valid reasoning still exists in an incomplete system.
  64. #10339
    Cricket is logical but baseball is not
  65. #10340
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    So, semantics then? I already called yours logic lite.

    Logic needs to be correct. If it was incorrect, it would be absurd and therefore illogical.
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  66. #10341
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    Quote Originally Posted by kiwiMark View Post
    Cricket is logical but baseball is not
    Baseball $$$$ > Cricket $

    That's all the logic I need.
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  67. #10342
    Rilla, fine, we generally use logic retrospectively, but when we do so, and then use the results to influence our future decisions, we are acting logically, we just aren't doing so in real time since we've already done our homework.

    I do think I'm sorta coming around to what you're saying. But still, the person who applies logic retrospectively to past actions is going to act more logically in the future by extrapolating from lessons learned from his review of past actions.
  68. #10343
    Quote Originally Posted by a500lbgorilla View Post
    So, semantics then? I already called yours logic lite.

    Logic needs to be correct. If it was incorrect, it would be absurd and therefore illogical.
    Logic needs to be correct, but it needn't lead to the correct answer when incomplete information is a reality.
  69. #10344
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    Hey it's all cool. I just know that when I've been properly logical it's been pencil to paper and in a narrow scope of life (mostly with respect to my work), and I've been on one hell of a study schedule gearing up for some standardized tests and I've got a brain boner on the whole logic thing.
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  70. #10345
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    Quote Originally Posted by boost View Post
    Logic needs to be correct, but it needn't lead to the correct answer when incomplete information is a reality.
    Sure I can swallow that. But don't try to generalize too far now.
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  71. #10346
    Quote Originally Posted by d0zer View Post
    Logic is the domain of the higher mammalian brain. We also have our lower mammalian brain and reptilian brains operating in variable proportions throughout the day depending on various factors.

    You can't say we're purely logical beings, nor can you deny that we have the capacity for employing logic. Both logic and visceral subconscious motives exist often simultaneously, we're complicated like that.
    We're actually talking about algorithms, and the implemenation thereof. The way you are using the logic here means higher level reasoning, deduction/induction/abduction. Rilla called in logic to talk about algorithmic thinking, so we have to take a more broad definition here.
    Quote Originally Posted by a500lbgorilla View Post
    YES

    What is the algorithm that makes up algorithms? ... ad infinitum?

    The algorithm is a top down instruction, shit in nature always seems to be bottom up to me.

    The algorithms would need to emerge, not drive.

    Blah blah meow chow. I think I've hit all my points time and again.
    I feel I answered this already though. It's the same as the "main" of a computer program, the loop that runs all the needed routines. And each routine runs its own subroutines. There is something like this running in the brain also. I'm not sure what you mean by it being bottom up.. the process of learning? That's just the way we formulate new algorithms (how to walk, speak, interact with people,..) as commanded to us by the "main" or one of its subroutines.

    Quote Originally Posted by a500lbgorilla View Post
    Logic is a consequence of our ability to predict and desire to predict better, not an element of how we be as humans.
    I'm gonna have to bring this back to implementing algorithms, and algorithms don't care for predictions. They just have to get the job done. If not, evolution will weed you out and the ones that are succesful in doing stuff will continue their lineage and existence.

    Trying to predict the future is actually part of many algorithms and needed for optimal efficiency. When you're playing sports you don't care where all the other people are, you are mostly interested in where they will be when they intercept you, and this requires predictions (estimated guesses according to some algorithm, which researchers have been able to perfectly reproduce algorithmically).
    Last edited by jackvance; 06-02-2013 at 08:13 PM.
  72. #10347
    Quote Originally Posted by a500lbgorilla View Post
    So, semantics then? I already called yours logic lite.

    Logic needs to be correct. If it was incorrect, it would be absurd and therefore illogical.
    Your logic would have been correct in the system that it was defined in. The problem just required something that wasn't in the system. If you disagree with that then there's no such thing as logic except for almost trivial systems anyway. See things like Godel's incompleteness theorem for example.

    So in fact from your definition I doubt you've ever actually used any logic, ever.
  73. #10348
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    Quote Originally Posted by jackvance View Post
    We're actually talking about algorithms, and the implemenation thereof. The way you are using the logic here means higher level reasoning, deduction/induction/abduction. Rilla called in logic to talk about algorithmic thinking, so we have to take a more broad definition here.

    I feel I answered this already though. It's the same as the "main" of a computer program, the loop that runs all the needed routines. And each routine runs its own subroutines. There is something like this running in the brain also. I'm not sure what you mean by it being bottom up.. the process of learning? That's just the way we formulate new algorithms (how to walk, speak, interact with people,..) as commanded to us by the "main" or one of its subroutines.


    I'm gonna have to bring this back to implementing algorithms, and algorithms don't care for predictions. They just have to get the job done. If not, evolution will weed you out and the ones that are succesful in doing stuff will continue their lineage and existence.

    Trying to predict the future is actually part of many algorithms and needed for optimal efficiency. When you're playing sports you don't care where all the other people are, you are mostly interested in where they will be when they intercept you, and this requires predictions (estimated guesses according to some algorithm, which researchers have been able to perfectly reproduce algorithmically).

    Hey jack, I don't have the vinegar to keep with you on this right now, but I thought we weren't talking about computer algorithms? Because, it sounds like you are?

    I just don't believe that mapping the idea of the brain and all that comes with it to the idea of a turing machine and all that comes with it (algorithms, complexity, the farm) is a match.
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  74. #10349
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    Quote Originally Posted by ImSavy View Post
    Your logic would have been correct in the system that it was defined in. The problem just required something that wasn't in the system. If you disagree with that then there's no such thing as logic except for almost trivial systems anyway. See things like Godel's incompleteness theorem for example.

    So in fact from your definition I doubt you've ever actually used any logic, ever.
    Yeah. Logic is pretty strange. Newton wasn't logical when he developed calculus, nor Euler when he proved a handful more of Fermat's BS.

    Logic is something else. Just recognize that when you claim to be logical, you're just playing at it. It's much better just to believe you're being human imho.
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  75. #10350
    I'm just using computers as an analogy. The thing is, algorithms are a step by step plan that needs to be implemented by something. They can be implemented by a computer (ad extremis a Turing Machine), but also by other things like a neural network (which the brain is). We're only familiar really with computers, but some attempts have been made to try to use neural networks also. They work but aren't readily commercialized. Turing computers do the job just fine for our purposes, have a nice theorical basis, and have gotten all the research money for this reason. But both can run algorithms, because those are just the "way you do something". And everything we do can be (theoretically) analyzed into how we do it because at the core it's only a bunch of electrical pulses shooting around.

    Anyway I gtg so I'm gonna leave it at that

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