$10 zone

[acg123]

hero is CO with ( effective stacks are $11.42) and opens to .30,fold, SB calls, BB folds

pot is .70 flop comes

SB donks for .70 , hero calls

Turn is

SB bets $2.10, hero calls

River is

pot is $6.30

SB bets $3.15, hero??

my thing is why would you lead pot twice and half pot river? everybody uses the slider. lol seemed strange whats villians range here?? I think JJ and TT are out of the question the way the pool has been running so that leaves JT,QJ,T9,98,97,44,AQ and KQ are possible ive seen these show up in pots where blinds flat. looks super weird line to me.

[daven]

first up, fold that turn all day.

second up, his river bet looks scared and kinda like he's bet folding. But i don't trust unknown fish to bet-fold even if that's their plan when they make the bet. He looks like QQ-TT/J9/JT to me. KQ seems unlikely based on flop play but is obviously possible. Anyway, fold river cos a shove doesn't seem that smart here without a solid read that villain has a fold button.

I don't expect to see AQ/T9/98/97 potting that flop very often - why are those in the range you've applied here?

[MadMojoMonkey]

This is easy: just assume that the first thing I'm gonna do is ask you about ranges.

How you gonna ask about his range OTR when you haven't asked that question on any prior street?

Personally, I think calling a PSB on the flop was bad unless you have a read that this guy likes to steal by flatting in the SB and donking a PSB. The size of the bet makes playing a draw a no-go. It's raise (semi-bluff) or fold. I'd fold.

As played, OTT, you have to put him on a range and pwn him here. He has totally defined his range as super strong or total crap. He's not correctly polarizing any ranges against unknown opponents. If you polarize a 3-bet range at the micros, you're elite. No one is polarizing multi-barrel ranges.

He either decided PRE that he was gonna barrel hard for 2 streets, or he hit a set. JJ,99,33 are all in his range, regardless. He MAY have QQ+ in there, 'cause people are stupid about playing the top of their range at the micros.

You can't assume that drawing a T or Q is any good to you at this point. You have a bluff catcher with 8 outs to beat a set.

***
I don't know what's in your head, but the way you present your hands reads like level 0 thinking. I.e. you're looking at your cards and at the board and thinking, "What's the right way to play this hand?"

You can't answer that question without the context of your opponent's hand. You can't know your opponent's exact hand, so you have to guess. You guess many hands that seem to make sense, and call it Villain's range.

Then you post these ranges in the OP when you post a hand.

[acg123]

first up, fold that turn all day.

second up, his river bet looks scared and kinda like he's bet folding. But i don't trust unknown fish to bet-fold even if that's their plan when they make the bet. He looks like QQ-TT/J9/JT to me. KQ seems unlikely based on flop play but is obviously possible. Anyway, fold river cos a shove doesn't seem that smart here without a solid read that villain has a fold button.

I don't expect to see AQ/T9/98/97 potting that flop very often - why are those in the range you've applied here?

I think your giving villain way too much credit, people don't pot twice with QQ or TT in this spot, JT or J9. over the last 9,946 hands ive played ive learned a lot from these fish. first, you have to always remember that your not playing an individual. technically you are, but because its readless you have to just pay attention to what the "pool" of players are doing. you might get on and everyone is playing uber tight, or you notice your getting 3bet a ton, etc. last night was espically strange lots of PSBs and triple barrels with weak shit. ( I flopped a bottom set on super dry board and called down 3 PSBs on K72A3r he showed 87s) this specific hand was the last of the session and I think strength trys to get value, and these bets are not common in zone so it looks like some shithead barreling 88s or something expecting me to fold.

[acg123]

This is easy: just assume that the first thing I'm gonna do is ask you about ranges.

How you gonna ask about his range OTR when you haven't asked that question on any prior street?

Personally, I think calling a PSB on the flop was bad unless you have a read that this guy likes to steal by flatting in the SB and donking a PSB. The size of the bet makes playing a draw a no-go. It's raise (semi-bluff) or fold. I'd fold.

As played, OTT, you have to put him on a range and pwn him here. He has totally defined his range as super strong or total crap. He's not correctly polarizing any ranges against unknown opponents. If you polarize a 3-bet range at the micros, you're elite. No one is polarizing multi-barrel ranges.

He either decided PRE that he was gonna barrel hard for 2 streets, or he hit a set. JJ,99,33 are all in his range, regardless. He MAY have QQ+ in there, 'cause people are stupid about playing the top of their range at the micros.

You can't assume that drawing a T or Q is any good to you at this point. You have a bluff catcher with 8 outs to beat a set.

***
I don't know what's in your head, but the way you present your hands reads like level 0 thinking. I.e. you're looking at your cards and at the board and thinking, "What's the right way to play this hand?"

You can't answer that question without the context of your opponent's hand. You can't know your opponent's exact hand, so you have to guess. You guess many hands that seem to make sense, and call it Villain's range.

Then you post these ranges in the OP when you post a hand.

don't have time to respond yet mojo, gotta go to work but as soon as I get home Ill edit.

[daven]

I think your giving villain way too much credit, people don't pot twice with QQ or TT in this spot, JT or J9. over the last 9,946 hands ive played ive learned a lot from these fish. f

please list the hands that you think are possible for villain to hold based on his preflop call and then potting flop and turn.
what percentage of these hands are things like underpairs or third pairs to the board?

[acg123]

please list the hands that you think are possible for villain to hold based on his preflop call and then potting flop and turn.
what percentage of these hands are things like underpairs or third pairs to the board?

I think preflop villians tend to flat hands like suited connectors and small pairs, sometimes TT-QQ but ive never once see a person lead out with TT-QQ unless its a pair board. even then they lead for pot plus a click. most of the times ive called a "pot-button click it up once" sized bet. ( $2.00 into a $1.93 pot) its a unlikely hand. something that caught runner runner, a flop FD that backdoor'd a straight or two pair OTR, pot lead into PFR'r has been weakness so far. I mean if he shows JJ,TT,KQ,J9 I think im more surprised than if he shows 98

Heres my thought process during the hand
first thought, "overpair" then the size of the bet capped that for me OTF because I haven't seen that play yet with that flop texture.( I pay very close attention to flop texture due to my huge leak I had with cbets back in the stars days).

next thought is "set", JJ would 99% x-r this flop, its extremely rare for someone to let the aggressor barrel cards.

TT would x-c, maybe lead but definitely less than full pot because most villians that are bet-folding don't bet full pot. they don't want to "throw money away" the times they have to fold when raised.

so that leaves less premium hands like 99-22,AQ,AJ,KQ,KJ,QJ,QT,Q9,JT,J9,T9,T8,98,97,87, etc. after said that, I think his betting range is all of this right here. two pair , Top pair , second pair in pocket , second pair with BD FD , pair and gutter , OESD , and Broad way gutters.

http://www.pokerstrategy.com
Board: Td3hJc
Equity Win Tie
MP2 43.36% 40.77% 2.59% { 99-44, 22, 3d3s, 3d3c, 3s3c, 97s, 87s, AdQd, AhQh, AsQs, KdQd, KhQh, KsQs, AdJd, AhJh, AsJs, KdJd, KhJh, KsJs, QdJd, QhJh, QsJs, AhTh, AsTs, KhTh, KsTs, QhTh, QsTs, JhTh, JsTs, Jd9d, Jh9h, Js9s, Th9h, Ts9s, Th8h, Ts8s, AdQh, AdQs, AhQd, AhQs, AsQd, AsQh, AcQd, AcQh, AcQs, AdJh, AdJs, AhJd, AhJs, AsJd, AsJh, AcJd, AcJh, AcJs, KdQh, KdQs, KhQd, KhQs, KsQd, KsQh, KcQd, KcQh, KcQs, KdJh, KdJs, KhJd, KhJs, KsJd, KsJh, KcJd, KcJh, KcJs, KdTh, KdTs, KhTs, KsTh, KcTh, KcTs, QdJh, QdJs, QhJd, QhJs, QsJd, QsJh, QdTh, QdTs, QhTs, QsTh, JdTh, JdTs, JhTs, JsTh }

MP3 56.64% 54.04% 2.59% { QcTc }




OTT :

http://www.pokerstrategy.com
Board: 9d3hJcTs
Equity Win Tie
MP2 55.09% 51.51% 3.58% { 88-77, 9h9s, 9h9c, 9s9c, 3d3s, 3d3c, 3s3c, AdQd, AhQh, AsQs, AdJd, AhJh, AsJs, KdJd, KhJh, KsJs, QdJd, QhJh, QsJs, KhTh, QhTh, JhTh, Jh9h, Js9s, Th9h, Th8h, 9h7h, 9s7s, 9c7c, AdQh, AdQs, AhQd, AhQs, AsQd, AsQh, AcQd, AcQh, AcQs, AdJh, AdJs, AhJd, AhJs, AsJd, AsJh, AcJd, AcJh, AcJs, KdJh, KdJs, KhJd, KhJs, KsJd, KsJh, KcJd, KcJh, KcJs, KdTh, KsTh, KcTh, QdJh, QdJs, QhJd, QhJs, QsJd, QsJh, QdTh, QsTh, JdTh, JsTh }


MP3 44.91% 41.34% 3.58% { QcTc }

OTR: when he half pots I think he has some nut combos left and mostly single pair missed draw hands. 3to1 pot odds means 25% equity. I think we have 25% OTR.

[daven]

just to check i've got this clear, you're saying that on the flop:
villain would never donk pot with TT+
villain would donk pot with 22 unimproved all day
villain would donk pot with all gutters
doesn't sound like any game i've ever been part of.

Here's what i'm used to
When a fish hits a premium out of position after calling pre it's super-standard for them to donk cos they're scared of the check back, check-call and check-raise happen to though, so maybe discount sets to say 50% of them are in his donking range here, do the same with two pair.
When a fish flops a draw out of position after calling pre it's not that common for them to donk for anything other than a tiny amount.

but, you seem pretty certain that these games play differently so assuming your read on the situation is accurate, then calling flop seems pretty terrible, how are you expecting to get paid if you hit your straight? you don't have pot odds to make that call, you're relying on implied odds. But implied odds in this spot rely on villain having a made hand he wants to commit more chips to on future streets vs heat. What happens if you raise the flop allin in this spot? i.e. what hands call and what hands fold, then what equity do you have vs the calling range? is that equity enough when combined with the folding frequency to make jamming a +EV play here?

[acg123]

just to check i've got this clear, you're saying that on the flop:
villain would never donk pot with TT+

No, im saying its very rare because vs CO open they tend to 3bet big, like 5x.

villain would donk pot with 22 unimproved all day

again not every flop,everytime, but textures where hes not being put on a FD, yeah prolly 30-40%

villain would donk pot with all gutters

broadway gutters for sure, suited connectors if he has backdoor FD to add to barreling cards.

doesn't sound like any game i've ever been part of.
have you played zone on bovada?

not trying to argue, just speaking from what Ive been seeing recently. almost exact same situation came up literally a few seconds ago. ill post the HH in a sec.


Here's what i'm used to
When a fish hits a premium out of position after calling pre it's super-standard for them to donk cos they're scared of the check back, check-call and check-raise happen to though, so maybe discount sets to say 50% of them are in his donking range here, do the same with two pair.
When a fish flops a draw out of position after calling pre it's not that common for them to donk for anything other than a tiny amount.

100% correct. in a game where your playing the same opponents, where you can get reads and see showdowns. there is none of that in zone.

but, you seem pretty certain that these games play differently so assuming your read on the situation is accurate, then calling flop seems pretty terrible, how are you expecting to get paid if you hit your straight? you don't have pot odds to make that call, you're relying on implied odds. But implied odds in this spot rely on villain having a made hand he wants to commit more chips to on future streets vs heat. What happens if you raise the flop allin in this spot? i.e. what hands call and what hands fold, then what equity do you have vs the calling range? is that equity enough when combined with the folding frequency to make jamming a +EV play here?

well I have 9.5 outs to a made hand, a Ace or King OTT and I will raise. that's 8 outs. so 17.5 outs equal 34-36%, something like that. the reason I would raise a A or K is because villain will bluff on turn overcard but fold everything except 2pair+ to a raise.

responses in bold

[daven]

Here's what i'm used to
When a fish hits a premium out of position after calling pre it's super-standard for them to donk cos they're scared of the check back, check-call and check-raise happen to though, so maybe discount sets to say 50% of them are in his donking range here, do the same with two pair.
When a fish flops a draw out of position after calling pre it's not that common for them to donk for anything other than a tiny amount.

100% correct. in a game where your playing the same opponents, where you can get reads and see showdowns. there is none of that in zone.

huh, it sounds a bunch different from zoom or rush too then. i had kinda assumed it would be similar but with a weaker player pool.

well I have 9.5 outs to a made hand, a Ace or King OTT and I will raise. that's 8 outs. so 17.5 outs equal 34-36%, something like that. the reason I would raise a A or K is because villain will bluff on turn overcard but fold everything except 2pair+ to a raise.

so you're counting the kings as outs twice? it sounds like villain's range will stack you on a lot of ace turns...

anyway, sounds like you're convinced of and happy with your line, that's fine.
i'm convinced that the flop call was terrible unless villain's range is mostly comprised of hands that beat KJ.
I'm convinced that the turn call was terrible too.
as for the river, meh, mistakes were made on earlier streets so river is kinda uninteresting to me in this hand so whatever.

[acg123]

i'm convinced that the flop call was terrible unless villain's range is mostly comprised of hands that beat KJ.
I'm convinced that the turn call was terrible too.
as for the river, meh, mistakes were made on earlier streets so river is kinda uninteresting to me in this hand so whatever.

exactly what I needed to hear. made me think about my game a little deeper, review some of my sessions ( i record with camtasia) and (thanks to mojo) read some articles from spoon. i definitely played this hand horribly and have since corrected.

[acg123]

Since the conversations is pretty well complete, i called river and villian showed

[griffey24]

Flop call is fine. Raising is also fine sometimes.

Turn is tough, given he's potting it. A lot of his semi-bluffs make some pair, so he might not necessarily pot those here.

Barring good reads that villain donks very wide, and donks pot wide, turn is a fold. Even if you hit your straight now, you won't get action given it would be four straight on the board.