villain only 4bets AK,AQ

[acg123]

Zone 6 max on Bovada $5 NLH (anon. zoom basically)

Button ($2.96)
SB ($11.02)
Hero (BB) ($4.91)
UTG ($6.87)
MP ($9.21)
CO ($5.60)

Preflop: Hero is BB with 5, 5
2 folds, CO raises $0.15, 2 folds, Hero raises $0.50, CO raises $1.45, Hero calls $0.95

Flop: ($3.02) 2, 8, 4 (2 players)
Hero checks, villain bets $3.46 , hero calls allin

Turn: ($3.02) K (2 players)

River: ($3.02) 6 (2 players)

Total pot: $3.02





after going through my database the other day I realized that the "pool" has been flatting KK and AA a ton lately. they also have been folding a ton to 3bets, is this spew?? I don't do it often it just happened a few mins ago, I have two other hands for discussion as well but this seemed like a good price pre, and once flop comes im committing on any board without an Ace,King or Queen as well as sets, straight draws etc. this isn't meant as a set mining play. i thought i would let him hang himself or save some monies by leaving myself an out on the flop. flawed thinking??

[Keith]

3bet is fine i guess is villains are folding too much to 3 bets since he's late position and unlikely to pay off a set mine. If they don't fold you are setting up for spew and once you get 4bet just dump it and move on. I would think you would have to include QQ+ in his range as well .You're gonna have about 37% equity against that range and gonna hate a whole host of flops. I don't play those games but i'd probably verge towards flatting pre rather than 3betting if they call a lot of 3bets

[MadMojoMonkey]

If they don't fold you are setting up for spew and once you get 4bet just dump it and move on.

This.

I don't hate the 3-bet PRE. It's a bit wide for my ranges to do so with 55, but I play FR.

The thing you must remember is that small PP are very hard to make money with OOP. So you must consider the 3-bet with 55 as a bluff. You are in terrible shape on most flops and Villain isn't (shouldn't be) holding a weak range.

The 3-bet is not necessarily spew, but calling the 4-bet almost definitely was.

Getting it in OTF is almost definitely a losing call, plug in some ranges on equilab and see how much equity you think you actually had on the call.

[acg123]

that's what I thought, during the hand I went to fold and just hovered for a second, and thought that I haven't seen a 4bet in awhile. yet ive seen AA and KK twice that DIDNT 4bet even though they had the opportunity. made me think his range is narrow to something like QQ, AK,AQ. I called and the flop looked ok vs that range, I didn't like it but I knew since I called pre I had to go with my gut and call flop. I assumed on any flop without and Ace, King, or Queen I would have a slight edge vs his range. even if his range is QQ+,AQ+,AK+ I still have 52%.

even though I have a slight edge vs that range I think I agree that 55s are to be 3bet as a bluff. probably 22-66 and 77-TT are good enough to play postflop for a single raise. i mean i wont 3bet those as a bluff, ill 3bet vs. BTN for value and flat vs MP and EP as there ranges will be a bit tighter than BTN. should i be 3betting all my pairs since villains F23B % is so high? i feel like i would be losing value, maybe not.

[OngBonga]

This is a very easy fold to 4b. This isn't the best 3b hand but then again it's anon zoom and I'd probably be 3betting a huge range, especially if I was getting plenty of folds. I'd likely just flat this pre, call the cbet on this flop and then c/f turn.

[daven]

Preflop: Hero is BB with 5, 5
2 folds, CO raises $0.15, 2 folds, Hero raises $0.50, CO raises $1.45, Hero spews by calling

fyp

[Sin Uggla]

fold to 4bet pre
if not, at least save some money on the flop

[acg123]

I'd likely just flat this pre, call the cbet on this flop and then c/f turn.

what other hands would we do this with though?

[acg123]

let me ask another question, are villains folding to 3bets too much or is it my imagination? seems like a lot of set mining to me.

over a 11k sample

im getting folds to 3bets 36.5% preflop.
average 4bet range in HEM for all positions is 1.2%
if villain opens, I 3bet, villain folds 36.5%, 4bets 6% (of his opening range), calls 57.5%
IF we go HU to the flop, AND I have the opportunity to cbet, AND I cbet, I win 85.5%
if they call flop, AND I cbet turn I win 29.2%
it they call turn, AND I cbet river I win 33.3%

how do I exlopit this? I don't think im grasping the concept or maybe not applying correctly because ive had huge variance since I attempted to widen my 3bet range.

[OngBonga]

what other hands would we do this with though?

Is this important at anonzoom? I can have weak flush draws and weak pairs, there's plenty I can take this line with. I can also flat sets on the flop, and I can float Kx, especially Kdx, so I'm not always folding turn when I call flop. Still, villain has zero clue about our range, so I'm not worried about being exploited.

[acg123]

villain has zero clue about our range, so I'm not worried about being exploited.

well played. I forget this sometimes and get caught up in "leveling" myself. so dumb, this is like the easiest game in the world and im making it harder on myself.

[Timlagor]

What folds to 3Bets do you expect?
It's going to depend largely on what 3Bets they expect. If you're playing a fairly passive table (as I think you are) then 3Bets could be AK, QQ+ in which case you're going to want to fold everything weaker (unless you think you have implied odds on a speculative hand which means very deep stacks).
F3 numbers seem to vary pretty widely but for an average that doesn't look odd to my highly ignorant eye. Someone better informed?

[Timlagor]

To the original line.. looks fairly bonkers to me.

55 is likely a cointoss at best.
If 3Bet isn't a bluff you probably have to let it go to the 4Bet (no percentage left to set mine) and if you really think you have equity then why not shove pre-flop and grab some fold-equity at least? ..finally when you get to the flop and you're willing to risk your stack you should most definitely be the one making the move with such a weak hand.

[acg123]

If you're playing a fairly passive table (as I think you are)

its zone. which is equiv. to zoom on stars. except its anonymous. theres a screenshot in my blog.

[Micro2Macro]

let me ask another question, are villains folding to 3bets too much or is it my imagination? seems like a lot of set mining to me.

over a 11k sample

im getting folds to 3bets 36.5% preflop.
average 4bet range in HEM for all positions is 1.2%
if villain opens, I 3bet, villain folds 36.5%, 4bets 6% (of his opening range), calls 57.5%
IF we go HU to the flop, AND I have the opportunity to cbet, AND I cbet, I win 85.5%
if they call flop, AND I cbet turn I win 29.2%
it they call turn, AND I cbet river I win 33.3%

how do I exlopit this? I don't think im grasping the concept or maybe not applying correctly because ive had huge variance since I attempted to widen my 3bet range.

First, increase your 3bet sizing slightly to maximally exploit villains mistake of calling too much preflop. Too much and you'll probably just get alot of folds, which you don't necessarily want, because postflop you are getting flop folds an extremely high amount of the time, so maybe 1-2 big blinds more maximum would do. That's step one.

Step 2 is to not give up with any of your bluffs on the flop to exploit villain for folding too much.

Step 3: once you are called, STOP BARRELING. The range you are up against is super strong. Unless you have the nuts yourself, you need to be very careful about putting more money into the pot. This is evident by the numbers you posted for how often you win when you barrel the turn and river.

In a general nutshell, that's how you do it. Different flop textures etc will have potential to chance your course of action.

[acg123]

First, increase your 3bet sizing slightly to maximally exploit villains mistake of calling too much preflop. Too much and you'll probably just get alot of folds, which you don't necessarily want, because postflop you are getting flop folds an extremely high amount of the time, so maybe 1-2 big blinds more maximum would do. That's step one.

Step 2 is to not give up with any of your bluffs on the flop to exploit villain for folding too much.

Step 3: once you are called, STOP BARRELING. The range you are up against is super strong. Unless you have the nuts yourself, you need to be very careful about putting more money into the pot. This is evident by the numbers you posted for how often you win when you barrel the turn and river.

In a general nutshell, that's how you do it. Different flop textures etc will have potential to chance your course of action.

Ok, question for step 1, should i also increase my range? I think this is where i make the biggest mistake. I tried a mix of hands (s.c.s,blockers,small pps,rags) with my premiums and got mixed results. I recently reverted to my nit style because i know it works. I know im leaving money on the table though, its just so difficult (for me to see atm anyway) for me to open my range to exploit a "pool" of players when i cant get specific reads. Should i be 3betting a polarized range to maximize monies?

Step 2
Im a barrel monkey. The only time i check back is when i have strong SD value on a board i cant stand a x/r on. So this isnt an issue..lol

Step 3
This is my second biggest mistake. I fire multiples with my bluffs on wet boards putting draws in villains range when in reality theyre only there a small %.

Overall ty for taking the time to help out.

[Timlagor]

First, increase your 3bet sizing slightly to maximally exploit villains mistake of calling too much preflop.

So 36% folds to 3Bets is a low number.

I got that it's anon Zoom.. that doesn't say much about how the pool plays though.

You don't mention how tight the opening range is.
Interestingly the looser players are likely to predominate when you see someone open even if there are just as many nits in the pool (bringing the average VPIP down): the actual range you face is therefore likely to be looser than the pool stats (or much tighter with a lower probability). Pool VPIP probably isn't terribly useful.
Stack size probably indicates tight opening fairly well though.

[MadMojoMonkey]

Ok, question for step 1, should i also increase my range? I think this is where i make the biggest mistake. I tried a mix of hands (s.c.s,blockers,small pps,rags) with my premiums and got mixed results. I recently reverted to my nit style because i know it works. I know im leaving money on the table though, its just so difficult (for me to see atm anyway) for me to open my range to exploit a "pool" of players when i cant get specific reads. Should i be 3betting a polarized range to maximize monies?

Step 2
Im a barrel monkey. The only time i check back is when i have strong SD value on a board i cant stand a x/r on. So this isnt an issue..lol

Step 3
This is my second biggest mistake. I fire multiples with my bluffs on wet boards putting draws in villains range when in reality theyre only there a small %.

Overall ty for taking the time to help out.

M2M is really a treat to have on the forum.

1) Not for now. Play ranges that feel a bit uncomfortably tight. Probably ranges that feel absurdly tight. Learning to auto-fold AQo from UTG when you have "no reads" is really good practice (at FR).

The point is to play ranges tighter than your spewing opponents and play bigger pots with your tight ranges.

2 & 3) I suspect you're in the process of internalizing what M2M said in his original post. When you are getting "too many" folds on one street, then when you don't get a fold, that represents a strong range.

One of the tools I used to beat 10NL was to play VERY tight pre, and C-bet 100% on heads up flops (unless Villain was confusing me OTF).
I could only ride break even until I realized that I'm spewing off my winnings by barreling. I won so much PRE and OTF, that I could basically just check back all turns and make a decision OTR. I used the Bovada HH to see villains' cards after the fact and saw that when they continued OTT and bet OTR, they had a fairly strong range. I was correct to fold >95% of all river bets. Also, when I bet the turn, I prevented them from stabbing OTR to bluff. So I was allowing them to play perfectly against me OTT. By not barreling, I allowed them more room to spew.

***
Another thing you should definitely be doing is adjusting your bet sizing post-flop to blatantly reflect your hand's strength. This is terrible advice for higher levels of play, but below 25NL, especially at zoom tables, this goes completely unnoticed. If you think a particular villain owns you 5 times with this move, then adjust. In general, the 5 times rule is a good guide to avoid seeing false patterns in the short term.

E.g.
1) You hit the flop and you intend to bet/fold (this is your go-to strategy at the micros). You figure your sizing and before you press submit, you reduce the bet by 1 BB. You want villain to fold, and when you are called, you are probably losing. Save 1 BB every time.
2) You hit the flop and you intend to bet and continue. You figure your sizing and before you press submit, you increase the bet by 1 BB. You want villain to call, and when you are called, you are probably ahead. Earn 1 extra BB every time.

In case 1) you'll be betting closer to 1/2 - 2/3 pot, and in case 2) you'll be betting closer to 2/3 - 3/4 pot. It's gonna look like a "normal" sized bet to most villains.

Whether you lose 1 less BB on a hand you lost, or you win 1 more BB on a hand you won - at the end of the day, that's the same result to your BR.
So if you can earn 1 BB on every hand you see a flop with this strategy, that's ~10BB/100. Clearly that's too big to ignore.

[acg123]

M2M is really a treat to have on the forum.

really though, I was waiting for someone to respond to that specific post. he did a ridic. fine job as you can see in my blog


1) Not for now. Play ranges that feel a bit uncomfortably tight. Probably ranges that feel absurdly tight. Learning to auto-fold AQo from UTG when you have "no reads" is really good practice (at FR).

this was my biggest mistake BY FAR.. I tried to open my range to ATC in CO and BTN as villians are folding sooooo much postflop. but that put me in super awkward spots postflop that I had no reads for so I ended up spewing. I got that back in check which was much harder than I thought!


The point is to play ranges tighter than your spewing opponents and play bigger pots with your tight ranges.

I know, which is what lead me to think that I could just raise more and barrel more and make more monies!! lol doesn't work. lesson learned


2 & 3) I suspect you're in the process of internalizing what M2M said in his original post. When you are getting "too many" folds on one street, then when you don't get a fold, that represents a strong range.

this one is villain dependent, sometimes I get called OTF with super weak hands that fold to a turn barrel but for the most part I have cut down my barreling frequencies A TON. ive also done a lot of work away from the table reading what flop textures villains react to and in what ways they will give me monies. (or save me monies)



One of the tools I used to beat 10NL was to play VERY tight pre, and C-bet 100% on heads up flops (unless Villain was confusing me OTF).
I could only ride break even until I realized that I'm spewing off my winnings by barreling. I won so much PRE and OTF, that I could basically just check back all turns and make a decision OTR. I used the Bovada HH to see villains' cards after the fact and saw that when they continued OTT and bet OTR, they had a fairly strong range. I was correct to fold >95% of all river bets. Also, when I bet the turn, I prevented them from stabbing OTR to bluff. So I was allowing them to play perfectly against me OTT. By not barreling, I allowed them more room to spew.

that last part is sooo true, I noticed if I tank check they lead the river like 80%..which most of that is bluffs, most villains also have a tell where they will x/c, x/c, and just insta-pot the river. when nothing gets there?! none of the draws get there, no FDs, so you would think he was slowplaying but in reality ive come to find out this means they hit a very unlikely hand. like A62-J-7 and they will be holding 77 or 67 its almost never a bluff. im pretty sure it was less than 10% bluffs or weak hands, if its different I will update after I do my review later tonight.


***
Another thing you should definitely be doing is adjusting your bet sizing post-flop to blatantly reflect your hand's strength.
this is something that I do subconsciously I guess because 60-75% of pot is my standard cbet in a single raised pot. 3bet pots my cbet size varies much less, im cbetting like 80% because I so rarely 3bet bluff with air that im going for value on MOST flops. I mentioned this in another hand I posted where I had JJ on a 247 board ( flop might of had diff numbers but it was low with no possible straight, but had a FD) and someone asked about my sizing. that was pretty much my explanation, lol I wanted to save BBs because villains aren't floating those texture with overs.( big overs and no FDs I mean,) they will have lots of draws, pair+draws,sets etc. IF AND WHEN they call a cbet.


So if you can earn 1 BB on every hand you see a flop with this strategy, that's ~10BB/100. Clearly that's too big to ignore.

yes it is..

ty sir.

[acg123]

So 36% folds to 3Bets is a low number.

I got that it's anon Zoom.. that doesn't say much about how the pool plays though.

You don't mention how tight the opening range is.
Interestingly the looser players are likely to predominate when you see someone open even if there are just as many nits in the pool (bringing the average VPIP down): the actual range you face is therefore likely to be looser than the pool stats (or much tighter with a lower probability). Pool VPIP probably isn't terribly useful.
Stack size probably indicates tight opening fairly well though.

fri-sun. are crazy, you get soooo many calls pre, and x/f flop. or people open, call a 3bet and x/f. mon-thurs not so much though, Monday has been my worst day so far, down like 10 BIs. not really GII bad either, just like 2 nits coolering each other and Ive been getting the shit end lately. lol YES stack size is extremely important. this biggest thing is the shorties and 80 BBers. did the 80BBers buy in short and double up? or is he a 100BBer who lost a pot and didn't click refill fast enough? just like the shorties, did he BI short? is he a reg who didn't get to refill fast enough? these are all reasons why I changed my strategy from my usual LAG to NTFU..(Nit The Fuck Up) because although being nitty is boring and not all that interesting, vs relatively readless villains its a money printer.

[Timlagor]

I think you're making a mistake if you don't CBet into 3Bet pots. Maybe not as much and certainly dependent on board but if you're IP and they check to you there's a pretty good chance they're holding AK/AQ and will fold (I assume that's what they're folding but if you're the one who 3Bet it could be almost anything).

Be aware that Nitting to print money probably doesn't work at higher levels ...though you do find fish at all levels so maybe it does... just not as well as playing better. It is certainly good to develop the discipline though and at any level you'll probably want that as one of your "gears".

[Keith]

thats a pretty blanket statement and whilst generally true , if you are up against a fish with a very high fold to cbet in 3bet pots and you have AA on AKx board , cbetting is likely to fold most of his range, checking will allow him to bluffand get value .I.e consider how his and your ranges connect with the flop as well.