[10NL] A3s...NFD on flop

[Cobra_1878]

Villain is 29/28/10 over 70 hands. Att to Steal in LP, 55%, 64% on button. Fold to 3bet, 83%. Cbet 67%.

BB - 42/27/0 over 34 hands.

PokerStars - $0.10 NL (6 max) - Holdem - 6 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4

MP: $14.01
CO: $14.09
BTN: $10.15
Hero (SB): $10.40
BB: $6.15
UTG: $10.39

Hero posts SB $0.05, BB posts BB $0.10

Pre Flop: (pot: $0.15) Hero has 3 A

fold, fold, fold, BTN raises to $0.20, Hero calls $0.15, BB calls $0.10

Flop: ($0.60, 3 players) K 4 9
Hero checks, BB checks, BTN bets $0.40, Hero raises to $1.40, fold, BTN raises to $5.00, Hero ???

I should have 3bet pre here right? Flat calling is pretty bad.

Now we got to the flop and hit pretty much what we were looking for. I c/r (is it better to just call here?) and he decides to 3bet, a pretty big 3bet at that. Given villain is relatively unknown, do I fold here and wait for a better spot or get it in?

[Savy]

This is essentially the same situation as your other hand preflop yet you post different stats at the start of the hand. Are his fold to 3bet stats not factoring into our decision making process here?

Stats on BB would also be nice as he should factor into our decision.

I think I like 3betting here pre, we have a hand that can flop very well and blocks a lot of his continuing range and if he is calling with hands like 89s we give him horrible reverse implied odds some % of the time.

I'm not really sure what you're trying to rep in this situation. You don't have any two pair, you don't really have any sets as you 3bet KK definitely and I assume 44 and 99 some % of the time. You 3bet AK, KQ a lot of the time and you probably don't c/r them a lot on this flop. So essentially you have a flush draw that is behind any TP hand, so if he's on the ball I think he can raise here with a pretty large part of his range and as a result can bluff quite a bit.

All that being said I don't think he is thinking anywhere as deep as that and just has a good hand a lot of the time, so it's a fold. Shoving doesn't fold anything out and we aren't deep enough for implied odds to come into effect and we're out of position which is crap.

I'm much more of a fan of flatting here, especially if the BB is going to come along for the ride.

[The Bean Counter]

Geez, since when did villains at 5nl and 10nl have stats like these?

I 3bet A2s-A7s suited pre as standard in the blinds vs a wide btn open, although I guess flatting isn't too bad with a station in the bb and if we were to stove our equity against a 64% range. I tend to flat A8s-AJs in these spots for definite, which is probably bad.

I'd flat flop with such a fishy looking dude in the BB. As played, how about treating villain's raise as a shove (since we have no fold equity) and letting us know what equity we need to make the call/jam? Then stove a realistic range for villain and see how you get on.

[TNreg]

Geez, since when did villains at 5nl and 10nl have stats like these?

I would guess post-black friday. There's villains at 2nl with these stats. Still tons of idiot fish though.

[surviva316]

Don't have standard 3b'ing light hands. That's just silly. You should basically be 3b'ing with hands that barely aren't good enough to call with, so as those hands get better (eg: A2s-A5s, J9s), then it will frequently be better to call, and as those hands get worse (eg: 22, J7s), then it will frequently be better to fold. And even that's an oversimplification.

Anyway, we can probably flat here with any BB left to act who isn't likely to 3b worse than premiums, so we should do that to leave room to 3b all sorts of fucking garbage against someone who's opening button for lol4bbs with lol64% of his range. Good god, we're seriously going to be 3b'ing this guy so much that it would be a waste to 3b with any marginally decent hands to call with.

As played, call flop and let the fish come along. c/r/f'ing is just such a crying shame here, and that's exactly what you're doing.

[Icanhastreebet]

Definitely 3b pre > folding > calling and I think calling is pretty far behind the other 2 since
We are OOP, We botch postflop anyway especially when we are OOP, and we really don't EVER flop well. Just think about the flops we can actually bink a hand on and villains range.


On flop both leading and checking with intention of calling are debatable. Raising and opening the action back up to the reg isn't near as good an option as the other 2.

Edited again because my last edit was probably too harsh. It's good that you recognize calling is bad pre. Also you recognized that your c/r was pretty bad in hindsight. Next time before you make these decisions actually think them through. I'm sure you can easily be like "okay, if I call I can bink a heart and maybe the fish will tag along, if I c/r I might drive the fish out of the pot and risk having this guy come back over the top of me".

[daven]

fold or 3b pre, donk-3b flop as played

[WeldPhaser]

yeah, 3b/fold. Some guys gave some good arguments for flatting, but meh, we're way outa position, and look, i mean we flop awesome and still have to fold....

[jackvance]

Flat pre is fine, so is fold, some % you can 3bet. But remember a hand like this can't be an auto-3b otherwise you'll be 3betting way too much from the sb.

I'd donk the flop, or c/c lead turn. I don't like to c/r the flop, your range will be too flush-draw heavy which is exactly what you have.

[WeldPhaser]

so jack your choice = call/fold/3b?, or fold/call/3b,

im w/ fold/3b/call, but I'd also donk the flop for the basically what jack said. KK=3b, 99=3b, 44=flat,3bsome%, your def close to face-up after c/r.

[rpm]

edit: i posted some advice but now i want to ask this question first:

is this his standard sizing? do you think he is going bigger to build pot vs the fish? have you noted his previous steal sizes?

[jackvance]

call/foldl/3bet but they're all close tbh so the order isn't that important. Will depend on how much he folds to 3bets, how often I've been 3betting lately and if he's agressive - it absolutely sucks to play against an aggressive player OOP.

Keep in mind though that if you 3bet, this is as a bluff. I think it's important to put it like that in your mind.

[Icanhastreebet]

Absolutely no way is calling better then 3bing here since calling is a losing play and 3bing is a winning play according to every decent player I've ever talked to or observed.

[jackvance]

That's true but I still call though if they're bad postflop. If he's in any sense aggressive you can never call.

[Savy]

That's true but I still call though if they're bad postflop. If he's in any sense aggressive you can never call.

How can you go from saying calling is the best to agreeing that it's a losing play?

[jackvance]

Because I'm going by the expected strength of 10NL. In there it really pays to just play lotsa pots with people. I'd never call there 100/200NL though.

[Icanhastreebet]

Because I'm going by the expected strength of 10NL. In there it really pays to just play lotsa pots with people. I'd never call there 100/200NL though.

See the only problem with this line of thinking is we are going to be bleeding money from seeing flops due to the rake. It's really hard to overcome rake even with a massive postflop edge since rake is basically uncapped at 10NL.

Also just because you could play the hand profitably at 10NL(even with rake possibly) doesn't mean we should be advising weak players to. I assume if cobra was capable of doing unorthodox things that you could do he wouldn't be playing 10NL.

[jackvance]

I find learning how to play postflop at a stake like 10NL (imo the perfect beginning/learning stake) is much more productive than focussing on playing good preflop. A few weeks ago I played some 10NL and 20NL after I botched in some tournaments and only had like €25 left. I ran it up to ~€200, and i found that if you start to 3bet relatively often, people will just respond by 3betting you more themselves (sorta vengeance) and 4betting or even outright 4bet shoving.

So you don't want your 3bet range to have too many bluffs, it's easier play to play lotsa pots where they don't remove some of your edge preflop. This is especially true for the SB where people have come to expect you to 3bet light because that's what everyone tries to do while thinking they're sneaky.

[Savy]

That's rubbish, you 3bet people wide and they fold too much. Then they adjust badly and as they start to adjust you make your range more value weighted and decrease the amount of bluffs in it and watch them stack off with crap like ATo.

People go from folding to too many three bets to stacking off with far too much. They don't adjust quickly and optimally at all which is what you're implying.

[jackvance]

The difference in thinking here has to do with my natural style already having a high 3bet% naturally.

Also, are you cleaning people out because they adjust poorly at the moment in 10NL? If not, might want to aim more on playing postflop. Smallball poker. Try it out.

[Savy]

You've been watching too many Negreanu videos on youtube.

And natural style is just some old school bullshit that I don't really think has any place in poker. Yes being aware of how you are viewed is important but that's because we're trying to play in the most +EV way so we need to be aware of our opponents range and how he plays it, but apart from that it's just bullshit.

[Cobra_1878]

edit: i posted some advice but now i want to ask this question first:

is this his standard sizing? do you think he is going bigger to build pot vs the fish? have you noted his previous steal sizes?

This was his standard size for raise on button, was usually 3x from everywhere else.

Thanks for all the advice guys.

I was pretty sure that calling pre was horrible and I do also realize that if I 3bet it is as a bluff, not for value.

As for flop, calling definitely looks the best option.

Thanks again

[WeldPhaser]

Cobra, just curious how many tables you playing?

[Cobra_1878]

Cobra, just curious how many tables you playing?

I only 2-table. I'm not good enough for any more than that, I like time to think etc

[jackvance]

You've been watching too many Negreanu videos on youtube.

And natural style is just some old school bullshit that I don't really think has any place in poker. Yes being aware of how you are viewed is important but that's because we're trying to play in the most +EV way so we need to be aware of our opponents range and how he plays it, but apart from that it's just bullshit.

Rofl

[WeldPhaser]

I only 2-table. I'm not good enough for any more than that, I like time to think etc

nice, i'm excited to hear this. this was a big factor for me my first go round @10nl. Now, i'm crushing it , 2-tabling, thinking bout ranges, and not getting complicated oop.

gl cobra

[Savy]

nice, i'm excited to hear this. this was a big factor for me my first go round @10nl. Now, i'm crushing it , 2-tabling, thinking bout ranges, and not getting complicated oop.

gl cobra

Although playing 2 tables is fine, by the time you're playing 10nl you really should be able to play at least 4. And I'm not advocating playing loads of tables, I think playing anything more than 6 is really bad for most peoples development, but 2 is too little.

Rofl

Thinking poker is anything more than manipulating ranges is beyond stupid.

[jackvance]

Please coach me.

[Savy]

Your amazing tournament player friend who is wrong about stuff nearly as much as you are would be upset if I did that.

[jackvance]

Interesting how you shape your perception. I can always appreciate such feedback.

[WeldPhaser]

Although playing 2 tables is fine, by the time you're playing 10nl you really should be able to play at least 4. And I'm not advocating playing loads of tables, I think playing anything more than 6 is really bad for most peoples development, but 2 is too little.

I disagree, not by much though. I don't think you should leave 10nl without playing 4 - tables, but one can work there way to this.

[Cobra_1878]

nice, i'm excited to hear this. this was a big factor for me my first go round @10nl. Now, i'm crushing it , 2-tabling, thinking bout ranges, and not getting complicated oop.

gl cobra

Glad to hear it's going well, I haven't had the best of starts but I am confident I can turn it around.

@Savy I don't think I will ever play more than 2 tables. It just feels comfortable and tbh I don't see the reason for playing more. The less tables you play the less chance you have of auto-piloting imo.

[surviva316]

Being able to play 2 tables without being bored is a more important poker skill than being able to play 4+ tables profitably. Hold onto that for dear life for as long as you can afford it.

[MadMojoMonkey]

Being able to play 2 tables without being bored is a more important poker skill than being able to play 4+ tables profitably. Hold onto that for dear life for as long as you can afford it.

so true *sigh*

[Cobra_1878]

Geez, since when did villains at 5nl and 10nl have stats like these?

I 3bet A2s-A7s suited pre as standard in the blinds vs a wide btn open, although I guess flatting isn't too bad with a station in the bb and if we were to stove our equity against a 64% range. I tend to flat A8s-AJs in these spots for definite, which is probably bad.

I'd flat flop with such a fishy looking dude in the BB. As played, how about treating villain's raise as a shove (since we have no fold equity) and letting us know what equity we need to make the call/jam? Then stove a realistic range for villain and see how you get on.

Sorry it took so long, read your post and just forgot to do it.

OK, am gonna give this a go.

There is $7 in pot, if we treat villain 3bet as a shove, it is costing me $3.60 to win $7, so I'm getting nearly 2-1 on my money.

Range I gave villain

Text results appended to pokerstove.txt

47,520 games 0.000 secs 9,504,000 games/sec

Board: Kh 9h 4c
Dead:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 36.702% 36.70% 00.00% 17441 0.00 { Ah3h }
Hand 1: 63.298% 63.30% 00.00% 30079 0.00 { QQ+, 99, 44, AKs, K9s, K4s, QhJh, QhTh, JhTh, AKo, K9o, K4o }

[The Bean Counter]

There is $7 in pot, if we treat villain 3bet as a shove, it is costing me $3.60 to win $7, so I'm getting nearly 2-1 on my money.

Range I gave villain

Text results appended to pokerstove.txt

47,520 games 0.000 secs 9,504,000 games/sec

Board: Kh 9h 4c
Dead:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 36.702% 36.70% 00.00% 17441 0.00 { Ah3h }
Hand 1: 63.298% 63.30% 00.00% 30079 0.00 { QQ+, 99, 44, AKs, K9s, K4s, QhJh, QhTh, JhTh, AKo, K9o, K4o }

Sorry, I realised I probably didn't make myself clear. By asking you to assume villain shoved for all of his remaining stack, I meant that you should assume that villain raises to $9.15 on the flop, rather than $5 - make sense? If so, do we have odds to call given your stove results?

[Carroters]

Strange that you include QQ and not KQ in this range. I wouldn't have either.

[Cobra_1878]

Sorry, I realised I probably didn't make myself clear. By asking you to assume villain shoved for all of his remaining stack, I meant that you should assume that villain raises to $9.15 on the flop, rather than $5 - make sense? If so, do we have odds to call given your stove results?

Ah right OK. I'm not quite sure how to do that, I know we would have to call $8.55 to win $11.95, but not sure how to work that out into a %.

I have done a revised range as well, as Carroters made a good point, not sure why I included QQ tbh.

Text results appended to pokerstove.txt

41,580 games 0.000 secs 8,316,000 games/sec

Board: Kh 9h 4c
Dead:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 35.539% 35.54% 00.00% 14777 0.00 { Ah3h }
Hand 1: 64.461% 64.46% 00.00% 26803 0.00 { KK+, 99, 44, AKs, K9s, K4s, QhJh, QhTh, JhTh, AKo, K9o, K4o }

[supa]

Although playing 2 tables is fine, by the time you're playing 10nl you really should be able to play at least 4. And I'm not advocating playing loads of tables, I think playing anything more than 6 is really bad for most peoples development, but 2 is too little.

There's nothing wrong with 2 tabling if that's your comfort zone no matter what stake, esp at 6max. I'm currently 2 tabling 50nl, mostly because I'm trying really hard to take better notes. There's just a point when playing a certain # of tables begins to take on a mashing buttons approach. If that point is more than 2 tables then you should only play 2 tables.