QQ in 3bet flop faces big flop reraise

[StackedYouSon]

Played this hand last night at a local 1/2 game and just wanted some thoughts on my line and maybe how to play this hand better. villain has been playing pretty tight most of the night and hasn't reached showdown often at all. Villain has about 800 and my stack is roughly 500.

HERO
UTG folds
UTG +1 calls 2
HERO raises to 15
3 folds
Villain reraises to 45
4 folds
UTG+1 calls
HERO calls

FLOP ($138):



UTG+1 checks
HERO checks
Villain bets 40
UTG+1 folds
HERO raises to 140
Villain raises to 390
HERO......?

[baudib]

I'd just fold. His line is retarded but AKss is probably as fancy as this guy gets; we're a pretty serious dog vs. JJ+/AKss

[Ghaleon]

What is UTG+1's problem? Limp then call a 20+BB 3-bet? After he did that I would have 4-bet to about 150-175 pre-flop to try and get more money in the pot while I'm likely to be ahead.

If the villain calls or raises you there, then you probably know all that you need to know about his hand.

As played, and without a better read than "tight most of the night", I would fold.

[bikes]

lead flop imo

[pokerfan]

what's your commitment plan? Do you call 3bet preflop for set-value or want to get it in on low cards board fro 250BB deep?Plan your hand ahead,please.

[Ghaleon]

what's your commitment plan? Do you call 3bet preflop for set-value or want to get it in on low cards board fro 250BB deep?Plan your hand ahead,please.

I think at 1/2 with my good hands, I want to try and play for stacks. Winning small pots at these stakes is slow, boring, and probably tough to beat the rake (if there is one).

It's pretty obvious that the OP's plan was to try and get it in on any kind of safe board and double up. I think the plan was to hope the villain calls the check/raise and then open shove any safe turn cards. This time though the villain did something bold that really really polarizes his range. That's all.

I still think that 4-betting pre is the better plan. As I said, at these stakes, I'm trying to play for stacks and I would probably be looking to get more of UTG+1's chips in the pot pre-flop when I'm likely way ahead.

Also, if you took that line, you would have found out all you need to know about the villain's hand and invested roughly the same amount of chips as you ended up investing anyway.

[pokerfan]

I think at 1/2 with my good hands, I want to try and play for stacks. Winning small pots at these stakes is slow, boring, and probably tough to beat the rake (if there is one).

It's pretty obvious that the OP's plan was to try and get it in on any kind of safe board and double up. I think the plan was to hope the villain calls the check/raise and then open shove any safe turn cards. This time though the villain did something bold that really really polarizes his range. That's all.

I still think that 4-betting pre is the better plan. As I said, at these stakes, I'm trying to play for stacks and I would probably be looking to get more of UTG+1's chips in the pot pre-flop when I'm likely way ahead.

Also, if you took that line, you would have found out all you need to know about the villain's hand and invested roughly the same amount of chips as you ended up investing anyway.

Why do u want to play your stack for $500(250BB) vs a strong range(QQ+,AK) when you are coin-flip at best and could be dominated??OP said villian is pretty tight and he could even only 3bet with kk+.Live poker is all about winning stacks when you have a big edge on the worst players.If UTG1 folds, i dont mind folding QQ 100BB deep.In this situation,we can call 3 bet OOP for set-value and proceed postflop with cautions on low cards flop.

[drmcboy]

I like leading flop or c/c flop , don't like c/r. since I know he bet 40 and live nits love the 40 40 40 line with 99-AA/AK here I'd just c/c and feel good about giving up if he starts charging more.

[Ghaleon]

Why do u want to play your stack for $500(250BB) vs a strong range(QQ+,AK) .

Because it's not a strong range. Meatheads at 1/2 will limp/call 3-bets from UTG+1 with KJ and have no problem getting lots of chips in on a J-high board.

If I saw a villain limp/call from UTG+1 when I hold QQ, I would have to be very careful that my boner doesn't tip the table over.

[Ghaleon]

Why do u want to play your stack for $500(250BB) vs a strong range(QQ+,AK) when you are coin-flip at best and could be dominated??OP said villian is pretty tight and he could even only 3bet with kk+.Live poker is all about winning stacks when you have a big edge on the worst players.If UTG1 folds, i dont mind folding QQ 100BB deep.In this situation,we can call 3 bet OOP for set-value and proceed postflop with cautions on low cards flop.

I must have missed where he said that. If that's the read, then why even call pre-flop?

And I agree with your last part. I wouldn't mind folding it either. A big part of my "playing for stacks" strategy includes making folds when you have a thin edge, but high variance type of hand. Hands like Top pair/weak kicker, TT on jack high boards, and other situations like that are easily foldable. I'm still ironing out my theories on this, but I think it has to do with avoiding the rampant reverse-implied-odds you get when you play with a table full of loose passives. You never have the fold equity to protect your small edges, so you just try to get chips in with bigger edges and hope the cards work out for you.


The villain behind us complicates the issue because we REALLY want to play against UTG+1.

[StackedYouSon]

Thanks for the responses guys. While I agree with the merits of making a 4bet to better define the villains range, the reason I flat called was to play small-ball with a stronger hand... UTG+1 is a very loose gambler very willing to stack off on a J high board (like you said Ghaleon). I knew villain's range was strong preflop but I didn't want to play the pot with just him.

The $40 to me on the flop honestly looked like a modest steal attempt, maybe AK. As played, I wish I c/c'd the flop because I would have dumped less in the pot, been able to see a turn card and reassess the situation. BTW, my range for him preflop was JJ+, AKs, and stacks were deep enough to call for set value, when the flop comes 8 high I figure I'm ahead here a decent amount of the time.

I eventually folded to the raise on the flop. I waited a couple minutes and needled him for info. At one point he tells me "If you go all-in I'm calling" making me limit his range to about AsKs, KK+. I then showed my hand to gauge his reaction, his initial reaction seemed that he was comfortable with me having that hand and then he started acting weak. Eventually he tells me he would check it down if I called, after that he shows me and I fold the hand. I put him on KK, later on after the hand was over he confirmed to me he had KK

[eugmac]

4bet preflop would be obviously terrible after a player 3bets with a range of JJ+, AK. You fold out exactly the hands you're ahead of and get called/raised by better.

[StackedYouSon]

4bet preflop would be obviously terrible after a player 3bets with a range of JJ+, AK. You fold out exactly the hands you're ahead of and get called/raised by better.

Exactly. I don't think I can call a 5bet shove here. Also, when you get to the flop after a 4bet (assuming he calls), whats the plan? c/f? I just don't see what hands he would call with besides KK+,AKs for that kind of money.. basically any flop you see there you're not able to make a play at the pot.

[rpm]

if you are going to check this flop (which i would, but better players are advocating leading), check/calling is considerably better than check/raising in my opinion.

[revolvingiris]

I don't understand the HH (11 players?). I think a strong argument can be made for 4bet/calling PF (or just jam). Dead money+live players spaz with pairs 99+ AJ+ and your not going to run into a lot of decent players at 1/2.

If villain is an ubernit then just flat the 3/bet PF and prob c/c flop/re-evaluate turn. I can't see a live nit having a large cbet% and your 54% vs:


Board: 8s 8c 3s

Hand 0: 53.817% { QQ }
Hand 1: 46.183% { JJ+, AKs, AKo }

Which is more then enough to at least see the turn. When you raise on the flop is it for value or as a bluff?

[StackedYouSon]

The only reason I don't like jamming preflop is because I feel I only get called by a higher pair. I don't think utg+1 calls. shove anyways. as played, I think I should have check/called the flop bet. if a safe turn card hits a draw is going to slow down a bigger pair will keep playing hard at the pot.

[bikes]

ffs not a spot to reveal your hand