Randomness thread, part two.

[a500lbgorilla]

Republicans only say Reverse Racism for rhetorical reasons. They don't care about understanding racism, just kneecapping its political power. Shit like that doesn't require a deeper parsing of Racism/Prejudice/Discrimination.

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2010/0...Reverse-Racism

Wasted thought like this is what happens when you politics.

[BooG690]

Why is the Daily Kos being thrown around here? Liberals that love them some Daily Kos or Salon are just as bad as conservatives who Drudge Report.

[a500lbgorilla]

Why is the Daily Kos being thrown around here? Liberals that love them some Daily Kos or Salon are just as bad as conservatives who Drudge Report.

I just reposted the article aubrey posted on the last page.

[aubreymcfate]

Republicans only say Reverse Racism for rhetorical reasons. They don't care about understanding racism, just kneecapping its political power. Shit like that doesn't require a deeper parsing of Racism/Prejudice/Discrimination.

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2010/0...Reverse-Racism

Wasted thought like this is what happens when you politics.

Well yes, no shit lol. Of course that's their concern. But the explanation on that page is useful regardless, with or without Republican rhetoric. It's not like that was written to convince Republicans of anything, and "reverse racism" wasn't coined by them either.

I found this through google, not really aware of Daily Kos being some super lib publication. -shrug-

[a500lbgorilla]

Yeah, it says that to be racist, you have to have institutional support. That's someone trying to further the political power of racism in the face of repub's reverse racism front.

Worthless.

[aubreymcfate]

Although I am more familiar with Salon because they show up on my FB feed. More often than not I find them insufferable, but depending on the writer they can be quite good.

[aubreymcfate]

Yeah, it says that to be racist, you have to have institutional support. That's someone trying to further the political power of racism in the face of repub's reverse racism front.

Worthless.

It's also an academic distinction. Maybe that wasn't the best article to post because of what motivated it but it still adequately answered Boog's question.

[aubreymcfate]

Why's that?

If you walk back far enough in anyone's history, shit gets ugly. Unless you were born a crowned prince or Rothschild, anyone could play the game of historic re/oppression.

Greek people experienced racism in America too, and not that long ago. But even if I met some random loony today who discriminated against me because I was Greek, it's not some deeprooted issue that I've been experiencing my whole life. I don't ever, ever have to think about it. It would just be singular experience for me. Being Greek isn't ever something that weighs on the back of my mind as some potential obstacle, and any discrimination I face for it wouldn't change that because it would be an anomaly.

It's not about cherry-picking historical facts that have no bearing on today to claim victimhood.

[a500lbgorilla]

If anyone tells me that their identity weighs on them constantly because of American society, I would be skeptical and expect it to be rooted in something along these lines.

It's like white power people and how they sense the threat of the colored man to the white race. The black man knows the oppression of The Man. Women feel the Patriarchy.

I dunno what I'm saying... You find a way to feel strong through the intended oppression you want to believe is real.

Certainly, we could talk about extreme cases like transgenders, but they're a huge minority. Most people just get along.

[wufwugy]

Institutional racism is a subset of racism. The idea that a group that is more oppressed can't be racist against a group that is less oppressed is trying to redefine racism as that one subset. It's wrong


The logic that an oppressed group has more of a bone to pick is problematic. Victimization in race issues has only made things worse for said race. The "bone to pick" has ended up being a product of victimization. Sadly, the framing of the issue has been so co-opted by victimization that the supposed victims of racism engage in their own racism.

[aubreymcfate]

There are always personality types regardless of race/gender/orientations/etc. that are going to be oriented towards claiming victimhood and forced perceptions of reality. And on a day-to-day basis, you're right, most people do get along. But that doesn't mean white privilege doesn't exist, and also doesn't mean that racism or prejudice necessarily takes an overt and malicious form. Plenty of white people can be good-naturedly prejudiced without even realizing it.

I'm a pale olive-skinned chick from Long Island. What more can I say about this? I just do my best to be openly receptive to the experiences of those who are not like me, and use my discernment and own pursuance of knowledge and truth to parse through the bullshit.

[a500lbgorilla]

Thinking about gays.

If you asked a gay guy if he was oppressed on the scale of his day to day life - talking about kids calling him a fag in school all the way up to how people treat him as a gay adult, I don't think they would all claim oppression.

If you asked if they were oppressed on the scale of American institutions, I think they'd all slam dunk agree.

If you want to understand how the prejudice became and sustained itself, it does you no good thinking about it politically and that's where I'm at. That academic game wouldn't need you to parse the forms of homophobia.

[aubreymcfate]

Thinking about gays.

If you asked a gay guy if he was oppressed on the scale of his day to day life - talking about kids calling him a fag in school all the way up to how people treat him as a gay adult, I don't think they would all claim oppression.

If you asked if they were oppressed on the scale of American institutions, I think they'd all slam dunk agree.

If you want to understand how the prejudice became and sustained itself, it does you no good thinking about it politically and that's where I'm at. That academic game wouldn't need you to parse the forms of homophobia.

I agree. Again, I found that dailykos article through google, and what drew me to it were the three paragraphs I quoted, which I thought were pretty clear and did a good job at answering Boog's question.

[Galapogos]

Edit: And I was a whole page behind, carry on.

[wufwugy]

Grunching here, but wuf, you seem to be pressing this argument that because of the difficulty of running an experiment on the causality of biology on behavior that the easier to study causality is the only causality.

That isn't what I'm saying. It isn't that one type of study is easier, but that one type of study is more relevant. Even so, my point is that it is wrong to extrapolate one type of thing onto another type of thing when we know that's not proper science. It's like with the pro-social sociopath by way of brain scans, we don't even know if the structure caused the behavior or if the behavior caused the structure. So when it comes to the issue of behavioral differences between the genders, we do not know at all how much is genetic, yet we do know that most is learned. The topic is extremely muddy when we compare sexes since there is such great variability. It is a leap for me to say that I think all differences are cultural, but it is also a leap for anybody to say some differences aren't. The bottom line is we don't actually know and we likely never will. That means that in a way both of us are right. But the reason I've been arguing this is that what we know is that virtually every time claims that the sexes act a way based on genes is made, it eventually gets demonstrated to be wrong.

Even so you don't even stick to your guns as you can continually be seen saying that whatever causality biology does affect on behavior, experience trumps it. Do you not realize that you are forfeiting here? If there is causality from biology, whether it can be overridden by experience or not, it will show in aggregate since all things being equal, more of gender A will tend to behave one way. And that's not even taking into account that once a gender, in aggregate, behaves one way, culture is likely to reinforce the behavior.

If experience does trump it, it means experience is a deciding factor. Genetics is really fucky. The brain is too. They both work in ways where experience creates new structure or new expression of existing structure. We're not dealing with robots in isolation tanks, where the entity's body exists only in it's original form. Take this hypothetical for example, let's say that boys are naturally inclined towards math, but if girls are taught how to count to ten by the time they're eight years old, then that natural inclination is neutralized. This sort of thing is true. We know it's true most of the time, we just don't know exactly when and how it's true. Another leap of logic of mine is that since mental skills are so learned, it necessarily means that natural inclinations towards skills are overridden. This isn't exactly true for individuals, but across sex it could be. It strikes me as really specious to say that men are better at math than women when there are tons of women who are better at math than tons of men. If it was true that one gender is mentally different than the other, things would likely look different than they do. There are some things where we know men and women are truly different (like size and strength) and the results bear it out


Look at it like this: we don't even know if women are genetically more desiring of children than men are. If anything is true about the mind differences of the sexes, that would be it. But we don't actually know if it is.

[BooG690]

Aubrey, you're on my good side. Sound arguments.

Rilla, sup?

[BooG690]

Do you think computer science students like comic books due to the environment or is it in their genes? Why do so many computer science students have trouble, socially? The world may never know.

[a500lbgorilla]

Aubrey, you're on my good side. Sound arguments.

Rilla, sup?

Just had an omelet for supper, how about you?

[BooG690]

Who has it better than you? Waiting for class to start.

[MadMojoMonkey]

comic books - gateway drug to computer science

[a500lbgorilla]

dunno, Elon Musk maybe?

[wufwugy]

why isnt elon musk the name of a cologne

[a500lbgorilla]

The world is waiting for you to make it

[a500lbgorilla]

Spoon, I got another one for you

http://www.theage.com.au/world/his-d...02-13t75t.html

[aubreymcfate]

comic books - gateway drug to computer science

elaborate?

some version of this is true for me. in the early 2000s i was very much into the anime/video game online community, and i taught myself html for the express purpose of making sailor moon/zelda webpages. my old personal geocities page from when i was 12 is still online. it's remarkably lame.

[wufwugy]

Sowell KO's the the pay gap myth

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/art...ap_125795.html

Innumerable studies, going back for decades, have shown that women do not average as many hours of work per year as men, do not have as many consecutive years of full-time employment as men, do not work in the same mix of occupations as men and do not specialize in the same mix of subjects in college as men.

Back in 1996, a study published in the New England Journal of Medicine showed that young male physicians earned 41 percent higher incomes than young female physicians. But the same study showed that young male physicians worked over 500 hours a year more than young female physicians.

When the study took into account differences in hours of work, in the fields in which male and female doctors specialized and other differences in their job characteristics, "no earnings difference was evident." In other words, when you compare apples to apples, you don't get the "gender gap" in pay that you get when you compare apples to oranges.

[MadMojoMonkey]

Do you think computer science students like comic books due to the environment or is it in their genes? Why do so many computer science students have trouble, socially? The world may never know.

comic books - gateway drug to computer science

elaborate?

some version of this is true for me. in the early 2000s i was very much into the anime/video game online community, and i taught myself html for the express purpose of making sailor moon/zelda webpages. my old personal geocities page from when i was 12 is still online. it's remarkably lame.

I's just beein' all silliness lolfactory.

Ultimately, I assume it has to do with the social stigma that only nerds like comic books. It probably creates a feedback loop of nerdy people creating nerdy stories about the nerdy struggles of nerdiness.

Speaking as a nerd:
Most nerds pride themselves on some skill or proficiency that plays to their self esteem. Comic books are usually centered around heroes with super powers. Maybe if comic books create Normal Guy, the nerds wont buy it. Nah, plenty of ironic nerds - or nerds who desperately hope that by being ironic it makes them less nerdy - would buy it.

***
all srsly, though:
The only comic books that I've ever enjoyed are the Sandman series, which I did not follow as a serial comic, but rather purchased in book form.

I read JTHM in the 90's and was fairly horrified, but amused at the non-comic-bookiness of it all. I was pleased later when Jhonen Vasquez got to put Invader Zim on TV. I see where he took the cartooniness away and made Zim a brutal hilarious failure. Now that I mention it, I wonder what he's been up to.

I read Maus, and I liked it, but I wouldn't bother to reread it. Whereas I've read Sandman through a dozen times and there's always something in there I kind of missed or didn't remember being as profound.

[Jack Sawyer]

Flush first fellas

[aubreymcfate]

I's just beein' all silliness lolfactory.

Ultimately, I assume it has to do with the social stigma that only nerds like comic books. It probably creates a feedback loop of nerdy people creating nerdy stories about the nerdy struggles of nerdiness.

Speaking as a nerd:
Most nerds pride themselves on some skill or proficiency that plays to their self esteem. Comic books are usually centered around heroes with super powers. Maybe if comic books create Normal Guy, the nerds wont buy it. Nah, plenty of ironic nerds - or nerds who desperately hope that by being ironic it makes them less nerdy - would buy it.

***
all srsly, though:
The only comic books that I've ever enjoyed are the Sandman series, which I did not follow as a serial comic, but rather purchased in book form.

I read JTHM in the 90's and was fairly horrified, but amused at the non-comic-bookiness of it all. I was pleased later when Jhonen Vasquez got to put Invader Zim on TV. I see where he took the cartooniness away and made Zim a brutal hilarious failure. Now that I mention it, I wonder what he's been up to.

I read Maus, and I liked it, but I wouldn't bother to reread it. Whereas I've read Sandman through a dozen times and there's always something in there I kind of missed or didn't remember being as profound.

oh! hah, yeah, i clearly missed boog's post.

Sandman is fantastic, definitely in my top 5. Loooove JTHM. Invader Zim was such a wonderfully subversive Nickelodeon toon. I have no idea what Vasquez is up to now (although a quick Google search shows that he runs an active tumblr - promising!)Maus is also incredible, but yeah, a little heavy for a reread. Not for everyone.

Garth Ennis's Preacher is probably my favorite series. And Warren Ellis's Transmetropolitan. Grant Morrison's Invisibles is also very good -- there would be no Matrix without it.

There is such a wide array of badass comics and graphic novels. I think the scope of what's out there would surprise people who don't know much about it. There is definitely a graphic novel suited for anyone who likes to read.

Scott McCloud's "Understanding Comics" was such an eye-opener for me. It's really such a cool medium.

[BooG690]

My Chinese algorithms professor (the algorithms aren't Chinese, the professor is) paraphrased:

I won't be teaching this definition this year because, every time I teach it, only the Chinese and Indian students memorize it.

Awkward silence afterwards though, I'm sure, most of the students knew it was probably true.

[MadMojoMonkey]

Hey, Ongie.

I got a present for ya.



Cheers.

[boost]

That isn't what I'm saying. It isn't that one type of study is easier, but that one type of study is more relevant. Even so, my point is that it is wrong to extrapolate one type of thing onto another type of thing when we know that's not proper science. It's like with the pro-social sociopath by way of brain scans, we don't even know if the structure caused the behavior or if the behavior caused the structure. So when it comes to the issue of behavioral differences between the genders, we do not know at all how much is genetic, yet we do know that most is learned. The topic is extremely muddy when we compare sexes since there is such great variability. It is a leap for me to say that I think all differences are cultural, but it is also a leap for anybody to say some differences aren't. The bottom line is we don't actually know and we likely never will. That means that in a way both of us are right. But the reason I've been arguing this is that what we know is that virtually every time claims that the sexes act a way based on genes is made, it eventually gets demonstrated to be wrong.



If experience does trump it, it means experience is a deciding factor. Genetics is really fucky. The brain is too. They both work in ways where experience creates new structure or new expression of existing structure. We're not dealing with robots in isolation tanks, where the entity's body exists only in it's original form. Take this hypothetical for example, let's say that boys are naturally inclined towards math, but if girls are taught how to count to ten by the time they're eight years old, then that natural inclination is neutralized. This sort of thing is true. We know it's true most of the time, we just don't know exactly when and how it's true. Another leap of logic of mine is that since mental skills are so learned, it necessarily means that natural inclinations towards skills are overridden. This isn't exactly true for individuals, but across sex it could be. It strikes me as really specious to say that men are better at math than women when there are tons of women who are better at math than tons of men. If it was true that one gender is mentally different than the other, things would likely look different than they do. There are some things where we know men and women are truly different (like size and strength) and the results bear it out


Look at it like this: we don't even know if women are genetically more desiring of children than men are. If anything is true about the mind differences of the sexes, that would be it. But we don't actually know if it is.

This is the exact position you've held for the dozens of posts that this discussion has stretched, but in this last post you simply were being reasonable with your claims. I feel like I fall into this trap myself a lot, and I feel like it often leads to a drawn out tiresome argument instead of an brief but interesting discussion.

Anyways, I think, given the fact that we don't know and likely won't for quite a while, your position may be the better one to adopt. There seems to be little harm that can come of it, and it will upset the status quo, which is rarely a bad thing. *shrug*

[OngBonga]

Cheers.

HOLY SHIT THAT FUCKING PIPE

[MadMojoMonkey]

HOLY SHIT THAT FUCKING PIPE

INORIT

[rong]

Latest Hobbit movie is available.

[wufwugy]

love the song "try" by colbie caillat. hate the fucking lyrics

[MadMojoMonkey]

love the song "try" by colbie caillat. hate the fucking lyrics

I am incapable of experiencing this combination.

[BooG690]

I am incapable of experiencing this combination.

Step 1: Hop off that high horse.
Step 2: Learn to appreciate music production.

That said, I haven't the clue what song Wuf is talking about. But I love me some "Call Me Maybe." I imagine the same argument can be made.

[wufwugy]

Step 2: Learn to appreciate music production.

This.

I will fight to the death defending the view that lyrics are anti-music. Music is sound. Lyrics are abstractions. Music is a combination of sound that gives a feeling that can't be explained, it can only be rocked to. Lyrics are an intellectual argument. The two are antithetical.

It's a little tiring when people extoll the greatness of some music by talking about the lyrics. They could have just said they're bad at music and save us the time.



That said, everything I just said is at least 30% dogshit.

[aubreymcfate]

This.

I will fight to the death defending the view that lyrics are anti-music. Music is sound. Lyrics are abstractions. Music is a combination of sound that gives a feeling that can't be explained, it can only be rocked to. Lyrics are an intellectual argument. The two are antithetical.

It's a little tiring when people extoll the greatness of some music by talking about the lyrics. They could have just said they're bad at music and save us the time.



That said, everything I just said is at least 30% dogshit.

(warning: what follows is a really insufferable and poorly written iphone post, basically me being a huge ass wanker, but it got me through a long subway ride.)

This is definitely seeped in some Grade A bullshit. lyrics are most definitely not anti-music. (Edit: not innately anyway, but a lot of actual lyrics definitely feel anti music lol) Nonetheless I get why you would say that because I can relate to this sentiment.

I've never been a lyrics person. That isn't to say I wasn't interested in lyrics, or that I didn't appreciate good lyrics, or that I had any conscious aversion to them. But im usually only dimly cognizant of lyrics and I was never the one who could bust out into a top notch rendition of a song because lyrics just never made an imprint on me. I guess because of my musical upbringing and just how I innately am, I'm hard wired to focus on what's strictly musical - tone, harmony, melody, timbre, etc. - and lyrics are, like you said, cerebral.

That being said there are exceptions, but it takes someone truly musical to make lyrics part of that paradigm. Tool is the only band where the lyrics were a hugely integral part of the experience for me. Not only are they articulate and poetic and incisive, but they're implemented with the same consideration as any of the other musical elements are. One of the things that made me fall in love with Tool was the fact that Maynard was the anti-rockstar, intentionally self-effacing, and his vocals were like instrumentation. Ofc I could listen to Tool sans lyrics and still have my jaw hanging at the brilliance of it.

The thing with lyrics is that they're poetry. And poetry is about the musicality of language. Joseph Conrad's preface to nigger of narcissus talks about literature and prose beig a means to evoke vision, to make you "see," and he says music is the art of arts because of its magic suggestiveness. Words are laden with symbol and meaning but they are also phenomes and morphemes that have their own aesthetic nature, like texture and timbre and rhythm. To appeal to the senses, to evoke an image or a sensation, the form and structure of language should be considered in the same way music notes or colors are.

Because language is the basis of our reality and how cultures and civilizations progress, we tend to view it in a purely utilitarian sense, something we need. But like Oscar Wilde says "all art is quite useless." Conrad says In the beginning of his preface that unlike with the scientist or the thinker, who appeal to our common sense and intelligence with facts and ideas, to the parts of us invested in the business of living and surviving in a favorable way the artist isn't about that. Art appeals to something more mysterious in us, less rational.

Poetry is the threshold where music and language meet, which is why a lot of the time it's best read aloud, to really appreciate the sound of it. It's kind of like the literary version of musical Impressionism in that sound and texture is used to paint an image (so rolling legato arpeggios in debussy may suggest the rippling sea, in a poem or novel the sound of the letters themselves, syntax, repetition, etc could suggest a wave like motion, or a sea storm, whatever - that's a super basic example). Allen Ginsberg is so fucking electric because his diction is spot on and he never uses a superfluous word (in fact Paul mccartney once came to Allen with poems he wrote and wanted his feedback, Allen ended up cutting out most of the words, Paul said it was no longer his poetry but a Ginsberg poem, hah. Anyway..) like if you read howl it's like, the images just pop up in neon succession in my mind). Poetry is still tethered to the abstract meanings of words so there is the unique challenge of blending the sensory with the cerebral. But there is poetry that completely eschews meaning and is basically nonsense poetry, using words in a way that's entirely divorced from what's signified.

SooOOOoo my point is that some super talented artistic folks understand this and know how to write lyrics that are suggestive and sensory in and of themselves. They also know how to tell a story and have the music synergize with it and color it. So it's a full, integrated aesthetic experience. I still am never going to be as instinctively drawn to lyrics but they can earn my deeper attention.

Rap is also a really interesting part of this convo that I won't fully get into now but rap is like heightened speech, like an incantation or something. rap is word play, it's percussive, each syllable and collocation of syllables are like the rudiments that make up a drum solo.

Here's a quote from the Conrad if anyone is interested. It's a very good preface, easy to find online, just google it:

Fiction--if it at all aspires to be art--appeals to temperament. And in truth it must be, like painting, like music, like all art, the appeal of one temperament to all the other innumerable temperaments whose subtle and resistless power endows passing events with their true meaning, and creates the moral, the emotional atmosphere of the place and time. Such an appeal to be effective must be an impression conveyed through the senses; and, in fact, it cannot be made in any other way, because temperament, whether individual or collective, is not amenable to persuasion. All art, therefore, appeals primarily to the senses, and the artistic aim when expressing itself in written words must also make its appeal through the senses, if its high desire is to reach the secret spring of responsive emotions. It must strenuously aspire to the plasticity of sculpture, to the color of painting, and to the magic suggestiveness of music--which is the art of arts. And it is only through complete, unswerving devotion to the perfect blending of form and substance; it is only through an unremitting never-discouraged care for the shape and ring of sentences that an approach can be made to plasticity, to color, and that the light of magic suggestiveness may be brought to play for an evanescent instant over the commonplace surface of words: of the old, old words, worn thin, defaced by ages of careless usage.

[spoonitnow]

So I was scrolling down and saw an absolutely massive block of text without being able to see who had written it, and I immediately knew it was aubrey. Congrats wufwugy: You aren't that person anymore.

[aubreymcfate]

Wufwugy is the most favorable comparison on this forum<3

[spoonitnow]

Wufwugy is the most favorable comparison on this forum<3

Your avatar looks like two of my ex's, and I hate that fucking hat.

Get at me on Instagram.

[Savy]

I've ruined the illusion of spoonitnow now that I know he's the type of guy to give his gf the last piece of jerky without her even asking.

[spoonitnow]

I've ruined the illusion of spoonitnow now that I know he's the type of guy to give his gf the last piece of jerky without her even asking.

I have to put on a good public face so no one will ever believe the horrible shit I do.

[MadMojoMonkey]

@wuf: I can appreciate either the lyrics or the production to the point of loving them, but if either is distractingly bad, then I can never love the song. Furthermore, whether or not I love a song is in no way a reflection on the song's quality. I'm sure there are brilliant pieces of music that I lack the cultural background to fully understand.

***
"I'm worse at what I do best, and for this gift I feel blessed."
-Nirvana "Smells Like Teen Spirit"

That's an awesome lyric. It's so awesome that I can forget how annoying the rest of the song is as long as the song isn't playing.

When the song is playing, all I hear is Weird Al singing, "It's hard to garble noddle zaus with all these marbles in my mouth." because the actual harmonic and melodic stuff in the song is boring as hell. Sure, when I was 16 in a mosh pit, that shit was amazing, but I'm not anymore.

Dance music annoys me, unless I'm dancing. So I would say that I don't love any dance music... because I don't love dancing, and so I never really expose myself to "get" the music.

Point is: Whether or not a song moves me to the point of loving it is in no way a reflection on the quality of the song.

[OngBonga]

blah blah blah

MASSIVE FUCKING WALL

Snide comment.

Nothing unusual here.

I must admit though, I don't like the hat either.

[rong]

I like the hat, but I dig chicks in hats, makes them kinda cuter some how.

[rong]

Flush first fellas

Flush? I think you mean run and maybe move to a colder country.

[wufwugy]

Nothing unusual here.

I must admit though, I don't like the hat either.

It's almost as if the things you say are stupid.

At least Spoon has an excuse in that his prerogative is playing to stereotypes in order to manipulate.

[spoonitnow]

At least Spoon has an excuse in that his prerogative is playing to stereotypes in order to manipulate.

I think it's hard for OngBonga to see this in action in a lot of cases when it's not blatantly spelled out. For example, I wouldn't be surprised if he actually thought what I said there was a snide remark.

Since I can't typically be bothered to type posts longer than a couple of sentences (and thereby cutting to the meat of the issue without copious explanation), I think my posting ends up being a caricature of myself.

[OngBonga]

I have an excuse. I'm high 97% of the time.

[OngBonga]

I think it's hard for OngBonga to see this in action in a lot of cases when it's not blatantly spelled out. For example, I wouldn't be surprised if he actually thought what I said there was a snide remark.

Let's have a pointless discussion about the definition of "snide".

[OngBonga]

snide
snʌɪd/
adjective
adjective: snide

1.
derogatory or mocking in an indirect way.

[OngBonga]

So I was scrolling down and saw an absolutely massive block of text without being able to see who had written it, and I immediately knew it was aubrey. Congrats wufwugy: You aren't that person anymore.

Indirect mockery? I think so.

[aubreymcfate]

you can't see it too well in the picture but it's really well made, a lot of attention to detail. the flower is exquisite and the material used is really nice. i really like hats but don't bother buying one unless it's really special, so i have a very small but well curated collection. it's also on more of an angle than it looks.

a good hat is so classy and lovely! the f is wrong with you guys.

[spoonitnow]

Indirect mockery? I think so.

It was direct mockery which is why it's effective as a form of friendly borderline flirting to aubreymcfucktoy and an acknowledgement of the running joke of his long posts to hi i'm wufwugy.

[wufwugy]

The thing with lyrics...musicality of language.

That's true, and why gibberish that sounds "good" doesn't make good music.

I get the Tool argument, any band that has used lyrics the best is Tool. But even though I like their lyrics, I still wish to forget what they are when listening to them

I feel like I can do one of two things: (1) consider the argument made by the person or (2) trance out. Doing both doesn't much work for me.

Exception: RATM

Which means that maybe it isn't lyrics I don't like, but bullshit lyrics. It seems every musician thinks they have the key to metaphor, when what they really have the key to is an audience who obsesses to find subtextual meaning. RATM, on the other hand, has direct, real, raw lyrics that fit the music that make all the sense in the world.

I should stop before I mention Bjork ruining good music with lolwat lyrics.

[rong]

This conversation is retarded. There's no definition of good lyrics, Bull shit lyrics that make no sense can still be great. It's a form of art, just because you don't get it doesn't make it shit.

[rong]

Case I point red hot chili peppers.

What the fuck is that dude on about with his lyrics, they make no sense what so ever. But they still have a way to be thought provoking in a whimsical way.

[wufwugy]

This conversation is retarded. There's no definition of good lyrics, Bull shit lyrics that make no sense can still be great. It's a form of art, just because you don't get it doesn't make it shit.

I mean, I agree I guess. I did say that at leats 30% of my post was bs

But what if you have a favorite song where you don't understand the lyrics like so many songs. Then you look up the lyrics and they're som bullshit like "fuck the jews, your mom's butthole smells like dead babies, love is a fancy flower like a high wire walker dancing down the beach on gangsta island..."

you'd be like wtf this is retarded. way too many times i have liked a song then found that the actual lyrics were written by retards

[aubreymcfate]

This conversation is retarded. There's no definition of good lyrics, Bull shit lyrics that make no sense can still be great. It's a form of art, just because you don't get it doesn't make it shit.

the convo wasn't really about whether lyrics are quality in and of themselves but what their contribution to the musicality of a piece is.

wufwugy, the reason "bullshit" lyrics bother you is the same reason you don't like poetry or avant-garde storytelling.

[rong]

I mean, I agree I guess. I did say that at leats 30% of my post was bs

But what if you have a favorite song where you don't understand the lyrics like so many songs. Then you look up the lyrics and they're som bullshit like "fuck the jews, your mom's butthole smells like dead babies, love is a fancy flower like a high wire walker dancing down the beach on gangsta island..."

you'd be like wtf this is retarded. way too many times i have liked a song then found that the actual lyrics were written by retards

Fair point, some lyrics truly are awful and detract from the value of the overall package. I suppose lyrics should add to the value of a song or else they shouldn't be there, but whether or not they do is very subjective.

[rong]

@wuf: I can appreciate either the lyrics or the production to the point of loving them, but if either is distractingly bad, then I can never love the song. Furthermore, whether or not I love a song is in no way a reflection on the song's quality. I'm sure there are brilliant pieces of music that I lack the cultural background to fully understand.

***
"I'm worse at what I do best, and for this gift I feel blessed."
-Nirvana "Smells Like Teen Spirit"

That's an awesome lyric. It's so awesome that I can forget how annoying the rest of the song is as long as the song isn't playing.

When the song is playing, all I hear is Weird Al singing, "It's hard to garble noddle zaus with all these marbles in my mouth." because the actual harmonic and melodic stuff in the song is boring as hell. Sure, when I was 16 in a mosh pit, that shit was amazing, but I'm not anymore.

Dance music annoys me, unless I'm dancing. So I would say that I don't love any dance music... because I don't love dancing, and so I never really expose myself to "get" the music.

Point is: Whether or not a song moves me to the point of loving it is in no way a reflection on the quality of the song.

Have you tried dance music with drugs, it makes a bug difference, and you'll be able to appreciate it a lot more once you've experienced this even when you aren't taking drugs.

[Savy]

Have you tried dance music with drugs, it makes a bug difference, and you'll be able to appreciate it a lot more once you've experienced this even when you aren't taking drugs.

I have, it's still crap.

[wufwugy]

the convo wasn't really about whether lyrics are quality in and of themselves but what their contribution to the musicality of a piece is.

wufwugy, the reason "bullshit" lyrics bother you is the same reason you don't like poetry or avant-garde storytelling.

The irony is that poetry and avant-garde are supposed to be antithetical.

Poetry is the epitome of conservatism. It's a bunch of strict rules, where creativity is considered the ability to operate within those boundaries in a previously unconsidered way. Avant-garde is the opposite, where you throw marbles on the floor and call it a slip n slide then pull your pants down and scamper off into the woods.

Contemporary poetry is understood through the lens of rebellion. It has few rules, and those few exist only to be broken. It rejects classical roots and has become better labelled as "rhyming prose". It works fantastically for music, but in that has lost much of its meaning. It's partly a return to the tribal roots of vibration and partly the frustration of the modern youth.

My caricature of avant-garde isn't fair. I just think that modern art has crawled too far up its own ass and splattered its brains on the floor. Put that on exhibit and get an A.

FWIW I'm pretty sure that every single one of my favorite movies is a mix of the conservatism of adherence to established rules and the liberalism of rejection of those rules and experimentation. Movies like Duel, O Brother Where Art Thou, The Celebration, Spring Summer Fall Winter and Spring, are simply amazing mixes of the creative and the standard.

[spoonitnow]

Anyone play DDR?

[rong]

I have, it's still crap.

I can't even begin to understand how you can feel that way. Maybe your friends absolutely suck and don't encourage you to to live in the moment , maybe you're too reserved and let your fear and self consciousness control you, maybe you're one of them people who like to fight against having a good time, maybe you are too busy frowning upon the freedom and happiness drugs and music can temporarily give people. I don't know. But I'm sad for you. You miss out.

Or maybe I'm a sentimental ex drug enthusiast who remembers things being far better than they actually were. And maybe all those things apply to me when I'm not high.

I dunno.

[OngBonga]

Anyone who thinks dance music is crap is listening to the wrong dance music.

[spoonitnow]

Also I tweeted to Doritos and told them to go fuck themselves with their Jacked 3D wannabe crap until they brought back real 3D Doritos.

[wufwugy]

I can't even begin to understand how you can feel that way. Maybe your friends absolutely suck and don't encourage you to to live in the moment , maybe you're too reserved and let your fear and self consciousness control you, maybe you're one of them people who like to fight against having a good time, maybe you are too busy frowning upon the freedom and happiness drugs and music can temporarily give people. I don't know. But I'm sad for you. You miss out.

[wufwugy]

still team white gold

blue black plebs can bow

[Savy]

I can't even begin to understand how you can feel that way. Maybe your friends absolutely suck and don't encourage you to to live in the moment , maybe you're too reserved and let your fear and self consciousness control you, maybe you're one of them people who like to fight against having a good time, maybe you are too busy frowning upon the freedom and happiness drugs and music can temporarily give people. I don't know. But I'm sad for you. You miss out.

Or maybe I'm a sentimental ex drug enthusiast who remembers things being far better than they actually were. And maybe all those things apply to me when I'm not high.

I dunno.

or maybe people can just enjoy different things?

Though still more the latter.

still team white gold

blue black plebs can bow

What I don't understand about this is the dress is blue and black?

[rong]

That's like someone saying they don't enjoy sex, or eating when they're hungry, or a hot shower after a weekend camping somewhere wet and cold.

[aubreymcfate]

Anyone who thinks dance music is crap is listening to the wrong dance music.

totally. but the mainstream face of edm is garbage. i went to mysteryland last year because i got to go for free, and it was seriously awful. there was ONE stage with dutch edm that was freaking incredible -- the rhythm of the bass line alone dwarfed the complexity of every other stage. Even Moby sounded like shit. But Mysteryland is portrayed as being "the" edm festival. when in reality there are festivals and edm scenes operating on a different level in every conceivable way. It's a total joke. But whatever, everything has its lowest common denominator contingency.