set/deep/regwar

[daven]

villain is 20-15-5, 50% fold to cbet, 25% 4b, 52% flop cbet, 50% turn barrel
fold pre?
i call the flop c-raise to rep the flush draw, fps?
turn and river?

Full Tilt No-Limit Hold'em, $0.25 BB (8 handed) - Full Tilt Converter Tool from http://www.flopturnriver.com

SB ($24.40)
BB ($25)
UTG ($48.27)
Hero (UTG+1) ($56.98)
MP1 ($13.03)
MP2 ($19.41)
CO ($35.35)
Button ($25)

Preflop: Hero is UTG+1 with 4, 4
UTG bets $0.75, Hero calls $0.75, 3 folds, Button calls $0.75, 2 folds

Flop: ($2.60) J, 10, 4 (3 players)
UTG checks, Hero bets $1.50, 1 fold, UTG raises to $4.86, Hero calls $3.36

Turn: ($12.32) 7 (2 players)
UTG bets $7.25, Hero calls $7.25

River: ($26.82) 7 (2 players)
UTG bets $8, Hero raises to $37.97,

[Cobra_1878]

I don't mind flatting pre, especially given stack sizes and the fact he 4bets 25% of the time.

I 3bet the flop, it's not the safest of flops and there are a few turn cards that we don't like. A c/r from UTG looks pretty strong

He cbet 52% of the time, what do we think his c/r range is?

As played turn and river are fine.

[WeldPhaser]

hmm, well, does his flop c/r range include QQ+, i guess we can prifitably set mine this joker if it does. his river bet looks scary. man idk, we left $6.15 in the wind. may as well just jam the river. but i can't fathom what he's trying to get us to fold here. ranges almost seem capped, except knowing if he does this w/ overpairs

[kingmotan]

His c/r is so weird that I would just 3b flop to like 9 and fold to 4b.

[jyms]

His c/r is so weird that I would just 3b flop to like 9 and fold to 4b.

I don't get this? He's only going to fold what we already beat. Why narrow his range to hands that beat us by putting in more money?

[kickass]

i think i still fold pre

[WeldPhaser]

i think i still fold pre

don't mind this either,

i really think this ways heavy on how villain plays overpairs..

so did you get that specific read after hand here daven??

[jackvance]

Fold pre, seriously?..

[WeldPhaser]

Fold pre, seriously?..

ok, yeah im not folding this at 6max, but i don't play fr..

Vance, don't you agree about the inportance of knowing how this villain plays QQ+ in this spot

[jackvance]

Not really. His line doesn't make much sense to me. I would expect JJ/TT to bet harder on the river. I dunno what he plays this way. AJ, 89? The river bet looks weak to me though.

[d0zer]

I've never seen a reg take this flop line with an overpair, especially in a 3-way, but I have seem them play top set like this enough.

[WeldPhaser]

I've never seen a reg take this flop line with an overpair, especially in a 3-way, but I have seem them play top set like this enough.

well right so given this and weak seeming rivet. make it seem like he is invite a re raise

[d0zer]

well right so given this and weak seeming rivet. make it seem like he is invite a re raise

I mean the reg COULD be thinking "hey I have this board so crushed, how many combos do I get value from? nothing except sets, so maybe induce busted draws to spazz and he'll raise sets anyway maybe probably so let's bet $8"

Hard to tell what the reg is thinking based on the weak reads posted but I sure as hell know that the last time I grinded 25NL in...2008 or so that regs were NOT thinking that hard about their river sizing. In 2013 maybe they are, what do I know.

[surviva316]

I'd rather 3b or fold pre. This deep, bottom set starts to become an roi hand against UTG opens. Flatting makes the SPR too big for us to really ever be dominating him when the money gets in.

Totally fine with flatting flop as played. He has like 2 combos of hands that have any kind of equity against us, and we're practically racing against those two hands anyway. It would be very optimistic to think that he's gonna felt everythjng else we have beat on the flop.

[d0zer]

yeah all of that also ^^^

[daven]

I've never seen a reg take this flop line with an overpair, especially in a 3-way, but I have seem them play top set like this enough.

so based on this you would suggest fold flop?
call river?

[jackvance]

3b or fold pre is that a joke?..

[kingmotan]

I don't get this? He's only going to fold what we already beat. Why narrow his range to hands that beat us by putting in more money?

He's not folding AA KK QQ KQ. Actually it's likely that he will flat 4b with these hands and shove TT JJ.
I would want to narrow his range and get the info I need as you will be putting much more money in, on the next 2 streets with call turn call river or worse, raise river

[d0zer]

3b or fold pre is that a joke?..

I'd consider calling pre if there are megafish behind that we want to play with, but in a vacuum vs a reg's UTG range, we actually get ourselves into a reverse implied odds situation vs him this deep. 3betting not only looks really strong and gets lots of folds, but it also lowers the SPR vs reg to the point where if we do spike a set, we have a better chance of stacking AA/KK on lower boards.

kingmotan: any reg that isn't wtf terrible isn't just gunna auto-stack an overpair 200+ deep here with the preflop action as it is. jyms is right, and your "raising for info" is just another manifestation of the "raise to find out where I'm at" thinking that is so heavily flawed and used by fish everywhere.

[Carroters]

This is why I don't play FR. Fuck not being able to mine 44 deep vs an UTG open

[jackvance]

If you raise this hand, your 3bet range in this spot must be way too wide to rep what you want to rep.

[d0zer]

If you raise this hand, your 3bet range in this spot must be way too wide to rep what you want to rep.

Well it's not like we're insta or randomly 3betting any small pp or sc or anything always here, the table conditions and recent history would dictate how much we can get away with a 3bet. If there are fish behind then calling instead of 3betting is better for a few reasons. I think folding would be better more often than 3betting would be.

edit: also regs are generally bad at adjusting to 3betting when it's not an obvious defend spot ala LP/blind battles, and just default to taking 3bets seriously when the initial raiser is in EP.

[Savy]

Well it's not like we're insta or randomly 3betting any small pp or sc or anything always here, the table conditions and recent history would dictate how much we can get away with a 3bet. If there are fish behind then calling instead of 3betting is better for a few reasons. I think folding would be better more often than 3betting would be.

edit: also regs are generally bad at adjusting to 3betting when it's not an obvious defend spot ala LP/blind battles, and just default to taking 3bets seriously when the initial raiser is in EP.

Does this mean that villain doesn't have much 4bet bluffing range? In which case why are we 3betting a more polarised range in this spot?

[d0zer]

Does this mean that villain doesn't have much 4bet bluffing range? In which case why are we 3betting a more polarised range in this spot?

Are you suggest we have a "merged" range? For that to be good, they have to have a continuing range that isn't tighter than a nun's cunt.

[Savy]

I don't really understand why we want to be 3betting a tight villains UTG range. Is more my question really.

[d0zer]

I don't really understand why we want to be 3betting a tight villains UTG range. Is more my question really.

Well we'd only want to 3bet here vs villains that don't have a absurdly tight EP open range. someone playing 20/15 at FR tends to fit that bill, though positional stats would help us make that decision better, as would reads on the rest of the table. Keep in mind that when someone says "I'd rather 3bet or fold", they usually mean "there are table conditions I'm not aware of that could make this a 3bet and conditions that could make this a fold, but I typically prefer both to a call". They're not (usually) saying "flip a coin and 3bet or fold".

I already outlined conditions that could make a 3bet or fold or call good here, we don't really know given the limited reads provided in OP, but in a vacuum vs this villain as described in OP, I tend to agree with "3bet or fold".

[Micro2Macro]

agree with surviva, though would probably flat if a loose fish that puts a lot of money in postflop is behind us.

44 is a great hand to 3bet too because you block effectively 0% of villains folding range if he is opening tight

think about how a hand like J8s is going to play vs a tight opener who is continuing with a very strong range (generally speaking)

fwiw probably not 3betting it anywhere near 100% of the time, usually folding

[jackvance]

44 is a great hand to 3bet too because you block effectively 0% of villains folding range if he is opening tight

You also don't block any of his value range. If this is your reasoning, how do you play 75s, 78s in this spot? Let's put villain on a typical range of AJs+ KQs 99+. A bunch of this he will 4bet pre. And what is your calling range in this spot, AA-KK, nothing? Do you 3bet 44 <50% or >50% of the time here?

[Micro2Macro]

You also don't block any of his value range. If this is your reasoning, how do you play 75s, 78s in this spot? Let's put villain on a typical range of AJs+ KQs 99+. A bunch of this he will 4bet pre. And what is your calling range in this spot, AA-KK, nothing? Do you 3bet 44 <50% or >50% of the time here?

I was implying villain had a wider open range for that statement, which isn't really the case utg 8 handed.

6max utg-mp though for sure way wider. hand like A4s would probably be better than 44 vs such a narrow range, but in terms of where to draw the line its worth considering other types of hands. (if villain opens lots of weak Ax from a given position then 44s value in being 3bet would go up)

think of the value you get when villain calls 88 to set mine pre and you make him fold, and when 4bet you're always toast and can just muck.

in the co v mp for example, I really doubt you are profiting cold calling 44. the next alternative would be to 3bet or fold.

[jackvance]

Yeah, 6max is another story. But most proponents of polarizing 3bet ranges say you should either add A2s-A4s and such as bluffs because they block the ace, or hands like 56s-98s because they have the highest equity vs AA-type hands (when called).

(picking the suited hands is not just because suited have a higher chance of hitting a flush, but also as a way to ensure your bluff ranges aren't too big. I do a mix of this and bluffing ATC occasionally, based in large part on the situation and flow of the game)

[surviva316]

You can mostly call with those hands. This deep, those are the type of hands you expand your 3b'ing range to in spots where you can profitably call a 4b with them. 200bbs deep, going 3bb->9bb->25bb leaves an SPR post for 3 streets of 1/2 PSB betting behind, which makes it similar to calling 3bs 100bbs deep.

Obviously in any spot where those types of hands aren't good enough to call, though, they become the best of your folding range, which means you should consider 3bing it if it's profitable to have 3b bluffing range at all. This is especially true of like 65s/A6s

Really none of this addresses whether or not it's profitable to flat 44 here, just goin with the flow of the conversation.