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Are there some times when you just can't make opponents fold?

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  1. #1

    Default Are there some times when you just can't make opponents fold?

    I ask because this hand's flop froze me after I bet and got called.
    I fired out again on the turn because a lot of the time at this table that would be enough to win me the pot (or else they raise, I get out).

    Who else would've called with their kings in this spot?
    Granted my hand isn't great, but are they more likely calling to try and hit the draw (and the middle pair helps them find reason to come along/potentially improve)?

    This opponent was hard for me to work out, because not a lot of raising occurred, mostly calling.
    Might be good, but it still worried me - Is that considered playing scared/too cautious?

    Sorry for the multitude of questions; There was just a fair bit about this hand that puzzled me.

    Full Tilt No-Limit Hold'em, $0.25 BB (6 handed) - Full Tilt Converter Tool from Poker Strategy Forum | Online Texas Holdem Reviews Strategies Tools & Bonus Guide

    MP ($29.82)
    CO ($17.76)
    Button ($31.77)
    Hero (SB) ($29.26)
    BB ($17.15)
    UTG ($17.41)

    Preflop: Hero is SB with Ac, 4c
    2 folds, CO checks, Button bets $1.20, Hero calls $1.10, 1 fold, CO calls $0.95

    Flop: ($3.85) Js, Kh, As (3 players)
    Hero bets $2, 1 fold, Button calls $2

    Turn: ($7.85) 6c (2 players)
    Hero bets $2, Button calls $2

    River: ($11.85) Ad (2 players)
    Hero bets $3, Button calls $3

    Total pot: $17.85 | Rake: $0.89

    Results:
    Button had Ks, 10h (two pair, Aces and Kings).
    Hero had Ac, 4c (three of a kind, Aces).
    Outcome: Hero won $17.06
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  2. #2
    Shotglass's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by givememyleg View Post
    i'll never understand how anyone can go through life being sober.
  3. #3
    daviddem's Avatar
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    - conversion? reads? ranges?
    - do not post results
    - pre: fold or 3b bluff
    - what is your reason for the donk bet on the flop (not saying it's wrong, just asking for the reason)
    - what range do you put him on for calling the flop?
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  4. #4
    Wow people who take lines like this are literate? I always imagine a slobbering gorilla bashing away at his keyboard on the other side of the world somewhere when I see these lines.

    What daviddem said. Do some actual work on the hand and put some thought into it.
  5. #5
    Can you answer me two questions

    Quote Originally Posted by poker_profiteer View Post
    I ask because this hand's flop froze me after I bet and got called.
    I fired out again on the turn because a lot of the time at this table that would be enough to win me the pot (or else they raise, I get out).
    What hands are you expecting to fold that you beat?

    Quote Originally Posted by poker_profiteer View Post
    Who else would've called with their kings in this spot?
    Granted my hand isn't great, but are they more likely calling to try and hit the draw (and the middle pair helps them find reason to come along/potentially improve)?
    If you think he's trying to hit a draw, what makes you think he will call the river bet when all draws miss.

    Basically if you cannot answer these questions, then your pretty much throwing money away in these spots almost always, because you will find far more hands will beat you in these spots when taking these lines. This is what carroters is referring too
  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by daviddem View Post
    - what is your reason for the donk bet on the flop (not saying it's wrong, just asking for the reason)
    No worries, to put it bluntly I'm a donk - I've only been playing for a year casually and so I have an incomplete knowledge of poker with regards to ranges, lines and appropriateness of betting.


    - what range do you put him on for calling the flop?
    I suppose I'd say I put him on an ace or a kq, aj, aq. Taking that into consideration, it really is a horrific donk bet =/ - Point noted.

    This hand is about a month or two old, but at the time I think I believed that they were much looser than I do now, so I may have put them on a king like kj, kq - At the time I would have been betting to make them fold if they hadn't hit the ace, so I must have watched them bet-fold in previous hands (at least 4-5 in the same fashion; That's my general rule to what constitutes some type of pattern).

    I'm expecting middle pair to fold that board, or any single pair other than aces with a high kicker.

    jyms: I agree - I will have to do more reading up on ranges as it keeps coming up frequently in discussion; I know the basic concept but nothing beyond it, so I've no doubt that I'll be doing myself a great disservice by remaining ignorant.
    I'll search the forums for a good read, but are there any books in particular that cover this topic? I prefer to read the old fashioned way, as staring at a computer screen for a long time is no good for me.

    Thank-you for all your replies; I will take as much of it on board as I can and apply what is suggested here when applicable.
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  7. #7
    Shotglass's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by poker_profiteer View Post
    jyms: I agree - I will have to do more reading up on ranges as it keeps coming up frequently in discussion; I know the basic concept but nothing beyond it, so I've no doubt that I'll be doing myself a great disservice by remaining ignorant.
    I'll search the forums for a good read,
    http://www.flopturnriver.com/pokerfo...ge-177508.html

    Quote Originally Posted by givememyleg View Post
    i'll never understand how anyone can go through life being sober.
  8. #8
    for the love of god, please use weaktight | fold when you know you're beat to convert your hands, my brain requires pictures to function correctly
  9. #9
    Shotglass's Avatar
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    The converter on FTR works and has pictures.

    FWIW: fold pre, you're oop and have A-rag (but it's soooooted) ...what are you hoping for, to hit your A and get kicked in the balls by his AKo?

    The rest of the hand's just total spew.
    Except for the river Good suck out, just don't start thinking that you're getting a milkbone for peeing on the carpet.

    Quote Originally Posted by givememyleg View Post
    i'll never understand how anyone can go through life being sober.
  10. #10
    Vomit hand. Fold pre or 3bet.
    flop isn't horrible but you shouldn't have been there.
    turn bet is tiny so basically nothing folds.villain has 3 10s 2 Ks and 4 Qs as outs to win making the turn call +ev even if a lot of them he can't bet much with.
    Ax is a decent percentage of his range so lots of times you are behind even after hitting this river.

    Since you don't have reads or ranges this is crazy play. You can't make some one fold. I'm reading No limit Holdem theory and practice at the moment it has a point relevant to this.

    You don't bet aimlessly to force a player to fold, that is spew. If you believe a villain has a hand or range of of hands that he is capable of folding the bet the exact amount that is enough to see him fold. Or in other words, don't bluff unless you can confidently argue for why the villain has a certain hand and why he'll fold to your bet.

    On ranges, everyone who's played more than a hundred or so hands is capable of this. You obviously fold some hand call others and bet/raise others. So think about what hands bet or call in any given situation based initially on what you would do, once you are past that consider player tendancies.
  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Shotglass View Post
    The converter on FTR works and has pictures.

    FWIW: fold pre, you're oop and have A-rag (but it's soooooted) ...what are you hoping for, to hit your A and get kicked in the balls by his AKo?

    The rest of the hand's just total spew.
    Except for the river Good suck out, just don't start thinking that you're getting a milkbone for peeing on the carpet.
    all this is good, sans the "good suckout" He's ahead the whole hand, but playing against a far better range. opponent should fold, but OP shouldn't ever be in this hand as played
  12. #12
    Shotglass's Avatar
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    You're right jyms.
    @ OP I misread part of the HH. My apologies.

    I was trying to be a smartass and just wound up being an ass.

    Quote Originally Posted by givememyleg View Post
    i'll never understand how anyone can go through life being sober.
  13. #13
    It was indeed a bitter-sweet river. I believe that particular opponent must have been playing really lose, because I remember this hand being comfortable that I had a weak top pair because every time they had middle pair, they would bet weak on the turn and river.
    That would've helped to begin with (because it's a read durrr me )

    I'm not disagreeing with anybody's opinion at all, I understand that normally I would have had no place in the hand, also that it was a vomit hand in the truest sense of the word.

    I'm going back to the drawing board, looking for some good hands in hand history (or playing some hands when I have time) to find better hands to ask questions about, as the quality of information is fantastic but the hands are sub-par.
    Also it would only help for me to read more about the game that I love to play so much, otherwise I'm very quickly beginning to see that my play will ensure I continue to spew money to other, more deserving poker players...
    Last edited by poker_profiteer; 05-19-2011 at 11:18 AM.
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  14. #14
    Much appreciated! That's a fantastic place to begin reading, Thankyou.
    Profiting from Poker takes tremendous skill - Profiting from poker without playing a hand is easy.

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