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Mistakes?

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  1. #1

    Default Mistakes?

    Villain is 52/4 over 57 hands. I've seen him stack off with A high on the flop and go to the river with straight or flush draws. He has not 3bet, has check raised on the flop 33% of the time and bet the turn 56% of the time and no stats on his fold to cbet ratio.

    I'm playing a little looser than I normally do as I'm trying to learn to open up my game. Not sure what my stats are exactly but I'd guess somewhere around 22/18, I've been aggressive on the flop but haven't double barreled much at all. I was running good and shown down the best hand most of the time it's gone to the river.

    I'll post thoughts and questions through out but mostly I'm wondering how any others might have done things differently.

    PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.10 BB (8 handed) - PokerStars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

    SB ($5.41)
    BB ($10.40)
    UTG ($28.12)
    UTG+1 ($8.55)
    Hero (MP1) ($11.76)
    MP2 ($7.92)
    CO ($9.65)
    Button ($5.52)

    Preflop: Hero is MP1 with K, J
    2 folds, Hero bets $0.30, 3 folds, SB calls $0.25, 1 fold

    As I said, I'm trying to open up a bit. The table in general had been fairly tight with 2 loose fish, 6 nit/taggs and me. KJ seemed worth a raise. Maybe a little too aggressive from MP?

    With lagg calling I was putting him on 22-TT, A6s+, A9+, K9s+, any broadway and T9s+. Whilst he has not 3bet preflop as yet I think it likely he would have with JJ+ as he seems the aggressive type so I discount those.

    Flop: ($0.70) K, 10, 4 (2 players)
    SB checks, Hero bets $0.50, SB raises to $1, Hero calls $0.50

    Pretty standard cbet with top pair after it is checked.

    After his c/r I had him on any FD combination particularly AXss, AK, Kx, TT, 44, KT, Tx I don't want to raise here because I'm behind most of that range and because of my weak kicker but a 33% c/r stat coupled with the rest of what I'd seen him do along with it being a min raise meant I wasn't going to fold.

    Anyone play it differently in this spot? re-raise maybe?

    Turn: ($2.70) 3 (2 players)
    SB checks, Hero bets $2.57, SB raises to $4.11 (All-In), Hero calls $1.54

    Another check on the turn. He's a LAGG who has bet the turn over 50% of the time and now he checks? Huh? I must admit this confused me.

    However, I now think it most likely he has a FD, Kx or Tx. At this stage I'm discounting AK, KT, TT, 44 as I believe with the FD out there he would be betting these to protect.

    I've picked up the FD myself now, still have top pair and by my reckoning there is a good shot I'm ahead. Bet the pot in order to get him to fold out any FD. Too much? Or maybe a check behind is better?

    Another c/r has me thinking he figures he has a strong enough hand to slow play. I now put him on KK+(though not likely as I still think he would have 3bet preflop), TT, 44, KT. All of this I'm behind but it's only another $1.54 to call so I do. I don't know how to imput specific hand combinations into Pokerstove yet so I can't do the math on my equity in this specific situation. I figure with a pot of $9.38 and a bet to call of $1.54 I'm committed and very likely have the equity to call anyway.

    General thoughts?
    Last edited by PKKFW; 05-11-2011 at 04:49 AM.
  2. #2
    daviddem's Avatar
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    Funky villain, very loose passive pre and very aggressive post. This looks like the "trappy-chappy" type, who would slow play or limp reraise big pairs pre and check raise excessively post.

    I keep saying it: minraising coordinated flops vs taggs can be an excellent play (although it's better to do it IP), either with a draw to hopefully buy two cheap cards, or with a big hand to build a pot, or even as a cheap pure bluff. Said TAGG is left at odds of guessing what his opponent may have.

    Note that if he has a hand like top pair or a set or two pairs, his check on the turn is pretty horrible, so you're justified thinking that he mostly checks with a draw or a weak hand like TPNK or second pair, so betting for value is fine imo, and if you are beat you still have many outs vs the stronger part of his range.

    Obviously never folding to his shove.

    If he had a set or two pairs or AK or AA, shrug it, take good note of his terrible turn check, and move on.
    Last edited by daviddem; 05-11-2011 at 05:39 AM.
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  3. #3
    ^^

    I left a note regarding the hand and his trappy type play. Will definitely keep that in mind if I see him again.

    So betting the turn was not a horrible mistake? What about the size of the bet? Maybe smaller in this type of situation next time?

    As for what he had, that's neither here nor there.
  4. #4
    Edit: Also pot flop

    Why do you insist on raising to 3x pre? You are losing value since nobody is calling 3x and folding to 4x at this limit. Lower SPR is good too since you're oop.

    Entire hand is standard though, betting turn is pretty mandatory with the draws and you have tons of equity against any reasonable range. His flop raising range has some random hands in there as well, and why did you include Tx, but not Kx hands?

    play it same way even if we don't have the FD
  5. #5
    daviddem's Avatar
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    imo betting the turn was not a mistake just because you have to discount top pairs, sets and two pairs checking the turn on this wet board. If you had been OOP, then I would have liked checking the turn better because you'd have to stretch it to get more than 50% equity against his calling range. But when he is OOP and checks the turn, his (logical) range changes.

    Sizing is fine also as you want to get as much money in there as possible before he blanks the river with his draws. Maybe even shove the turn.
    Virginity is like a bubble: one prick and it's all gone
    Ignoranus (n): A person who is stupid AND an assh*le
  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Bucket View Post
    Edit: Also pot flop
    Yeah I was torn between psb and 3/4(rounded to 50c)
    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Bucket
    Why do you insist on raising to 3x pre? You are losing value since nobody is calling 3x and folding to 4x at this limit. Lower SPR is good too since you're oop.
    Firstly, I had to look up SPR so thankyou for forcing me to learn something new.

    Now, I don't understand what you mean by nobody is calling 3x and folding to 4x. I'm guessing that combined with your reference to SPR you mean I should be raising to 4x if I'm going to raise at all? If that is what you mean then after thinking about it I would have to agree.
    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Bucket
    Entire hand is standard though, betting turn is pretty mandatory with the draws and you have tons of equity against any reasonable range. His flop raising range has some random hands in there as well, and why did you include Tx, but not Kx hands?
    I did include Kx hands.

    "After his c/r I had him on any FD combination particularly AXss, AK, Kx, TT, 44, KT, Tx"
    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Bucket
    play it same way even if we don't have the FD
    Cool.
  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by daviddem View Post
    imo betting the turn was not a mistake just because you have to discount top pairs, sets and two pairs checking the turn on this wet board. If you had been OOP, then I would have liked checking the turn better because you'd have to stretch it to get more than 50% equity against his calling range. But when he is OOP and checks the turn, his (logical) range changes.

    Sizing is fine also as you want to get as much money in there as possible before he blanks the river with his draws. Maybe even shove the turn.
    Thanks for your thoughts.

    I guess in hindsight a shove would have been better. I basically pot committed myself anyway and was always going to call his shove so it would have been better to shove myself and put the pressure on him.
  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by PKKFW View Post
    I've picked up the FD myself now, still have top pair and by my reckoning there is a good shot I'm ahead. Bet the pot in order to get him to fold out any FD. Too much? Or maybe a check behind is better?
    You don't want him to fold a flush draw, you want him to make a mistake by calling while getting a bad price or jamming when he thinks he has fold equity.

    I don't get why everyone thinks his flop c/r range is so wide and weak given he's 54/4 (not close to a LAG). Check back the turn looks better than betting.
  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by HoopyDude View Post
    You don't want him to fold a flush draw, you want him to make a mistake by calling while getting a bad price or jamming when he thinks he has fold equity.
    Good point. After thinking about it that is why I questioned whether psb was the best option. He's obviously not getting the odds to call if he is on a draw and the same could be said about 3/4 psb so why not only bet 3/4?

    I think either 3/4 psb or AI shove would have been equally good in this particular spot. My psb was probably the least optimal play but as far as mistakes go I guess it's not too bad.
    Quote Originally Posted by HoopyDude
    I don't get why everyone thinks his flop c/r range is so wide and weak given he's 54/4 (not close to a LAG). Check back the turn looks better than betting.
    I'm thinking he is loose because I've personally not seen too many people play 54% of their hands. I'm thinking he is aggressive because he has c/r the flop 1/3 of the time and bet the turn over 50% of the time. I've seen him stack off with A high as well. All these things make me think LAGG but I admit to not being the most experience one around here.
  10. #10
    I would check the turn here pretty much always.
    [00:29] <daven> dc, why not check turn behind
    [00:30] <DC> daven
    [00:30] <DC> on my hand?
    [00:30] <daven> yep
    [00:30] <DC> because I am drunk
    [00:30] <daven> nice reason
    [00:30] <daven> no further questions
    [00:30] <yaawn> ^^Lol

    Problem officer...?
  11. #11
    daviddem's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HoopyDude View Post
    You don't want him to fold a flush draw, you want him to make a mistake by calling while getting a bad price or jamming when he thinks he has fold equity.

    I don't get why everyone thinks his flop c/r range is so wide and weak given he's 54/4 (not close to a LAG). Check back the turn looks better than betting.
    Quote Originally Posted by Donachello View Post
    I would check the turn here pretty much always.

    Initially it was my thought also that checking back the turn would have been better, but is villain really checking his top pair/2pair/set on this board at the risk of giving a free card, which in his eyes hero is quite likely to take since he only called the raise on the flop without reraising?

    To me it could very well be that villain was hoping for a free card when he checked the turn, and when he didn't get it, what was he gonna do? Call and leave $1.5 behind? If he is going to continue he might as well shove right? So that turns what actually is a check/call into a scary check/raise.

    Seems to me I see more of these villains lately, who are loose passive pre and become all aggressive post with donk bets and check-raises, etc. Maybe just an impression.
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  12. #12
    Shotglass's Avatar
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    54/4 is def not a Lagg.
    That's someone who is hoping to catch something cheaply and/or bluff people out of the pot after the flop, or your basic donator.
    he has c/r the flop 1/3 of the time and bet the turn over 50% of the time. I've seen him stack off with A high
    What has he shown down after his 33% flop c/r, was it the A high or something of value?

    PF and flop look pretty std. CiB on the turn, if he's this aggressive post flop then just let him bet into you and turn your TPGK with a busted draw (if the river misses) into a bluff catcher. If he checks on a blank river then I'd bet the pot or more.

    Edit:
    Originally posted by Daviddem
    Initially it was my thought also that checking back the turn would have been better, but is villain really checking his top pair/2pair/set on this board at the risk of giving a free card, which in his eyes hero is quite likely to take since he only called the raise on the flop without reraising?
    I see your point but I think that the villains actions (loose/passive pre and aggressive as hell post) seem to say that he isn't thinking above level 1 if he's lucky. Isn't it more likely that he actually caught something now and is slowplaying?
    Last edited by Shotglass; 05-11-2011 at 12:56 PM.

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  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Shotglass View Post
    54/4 is def not a Lagg.
    That's someone who is hoping to catch something cheaply and/or bluff people out of the pot after the flop, or your basic donator.
    Good to know. As said earlier I was thinking he was Loose because of his preflop play and aggressive because of his post flop play. Hadn't really considered the situation could be as you describe.
    Quote Originally Posted by Shotglass
    What has he shown down after his 33% flop c/r, was it the A high or something of value?
    He had show down an A high flush draw once after a substantial c/r, TPTK once also on a big c/r and middle pair once and that was after a barely bigger than min c/r. Other than those three he hadn't needed to show down.
    Quote Originally Posted by Shotglass
    PF and flop look pretty std. CiB on the turn, if he's this aggressive post flop then just let him bet into you and turn your TPGK with a busted draw (if the river misses) into a bluff catcher. If he checks on a blank river then I'd bet the pot or more.
    Certainly good thoughts. I do admit to being caught out by his check on the turn and obviously that biased my thinking about how strong his hand might be. In saying that I had not seen him c/r the turn before. Instead he seemed to either bet it or c/f it in nearly equally measures.
    Quote Originally Posted by Shotglass
    I see your point but I think that the villains actions (loose/passive pre and aggressive as hell post) seem to say that he isn't thinking above level 1 if he's lucky. Isn't it more likely that he actually caught something now and is slowplaying?
    I had seen him bet the turn over 50% of the time and not once had I seen him c/r the turn so I really wasn't expecting that move. Obviously, in hindsight he was clearly slowplaying and I've left a note on him regarding this for future reference.
  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by daviddem View Post
    Initially it was my thought also that checking back the turn would have been better, but is villain really checking his top pair/2pair/set on this board at the risk of giving a free card, which in his eyes hero is quite likely to take since he only called the raise on the flop without reraising?

    To me it could very well be that villain was hoping for a free card when he checked the turn, and when he didn't get it, what was he gonna do? Call and leave $1.5 behind? If he is going to continue he might as well shove right? So that turns what actually is a check/call into a scary check/raise.

    Seems to me I see more of these villains lately, who are loose passive pre and become all aggressive post with donk bets and check-raises, etc. Maybe just an impression.
    All this was pretty much my thinking too.

    To finish up -

    Villian had pocket 4's for a set, a heart came on the river and I won by getting lucky.
  15. #15
    "Now, I don't understand what you mean by nobody is calling 3x and folding to 4x. I'm guessing that combined with your reference to SPR you mean I should be raising to 4x if I'm going to raise at all? If that is what you mean then after thinking about it I would have to agree."

    The point is even if your table is for the most part nitty, your money is coming from fish. Not getting more money into the pot preflop when your range is tight and the 54/4's-82/12's out there are calling with the same range to a 3x or 4x bet is burning money.

    "Good point. After thinking about it that is why I questioned whether psb was the best option. He's obviously not getting the odds to call if he is on a draw and the same could be said about 3/4 psb so why not only bet 3/4?"

    Two huge errors in your thought process on this comment. Firstly if this guy has a flush draw the chances of him folding it on the flop are extremely thin. Secondly the idea that you wanted to bet smaller because he wouldn't have odds against a psb is silly. Like others have said, your goal is to get as much money into the pot as you can for as long as you are ahead of villain's range.

    Also why is anyone wanting to check back this turn? Really confused on this, I'm really interested to hear reasoning on this. Either you guys didn't read the history, or I have a pretty big leak somewhere in my thought process.
  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Bucket View Post
    The point is even if your table is for the most part nitty, your money is coming from fish. Not getting more money into the pot preflop when your range is tight and the 54/4's-82/12's out there are calling with the same range to a 3x or 4x bet is burning money.
    Yeah I see what you are saying and it makes sense. I will look to take advantage like this more often in the future.
    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Bucket
    Two huge errors in your thought process on this comment. Firstly if this guy has a flush draw the chances of him folding it on the flop are extremely thin.
    I was referring to my psb on the turn. On the flop I would think most people would fold a FD to a pot size bet where as they might not fold to a 3/4 psb. What we want is for them to make a mistake in calling and by betting 3/4 psb they are more likely to call and yet are still making a mistake.

    As for the psb Vs 3/4 psb on the turn I see what you are saying and I agree. The fact he called on the flop coupled with the size of his remaining stack means he very likely would have called or shoved the turn with a FD regardless. In this specific situation I think all the money was going in so the bet size didn't matter so much. However your comments bear thinking on for future reference.
    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Bucket
    Secondly the idea that you wanted to bet smaller because he wouldn't have odds against a psb is silly. Like others have said, your goal is to get as much money into the pot as you can for as long as you are ahead of villain's range.
    I agree that you want to get as much money into the pot as you can while you are ahead. Having said that, as I mentioned earlier, I find lots of people fold to a psb where as they have a greater tendency to call a smaller bet. Hence more money going into the pot than otherwise would if they folded. That's why I chose a 3/4 psb on the flop. A mistake? Probably, but one I will learn from.
    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Bucket
    Also why is anyone wanting to check back this turn? Really confused on this, I'm really interested to hear reasoning on this. Either you guys didn't read the history, or I have a pretty big leak somewhere in my thought process.
    I can't answer this as I don't pretend to be anything more than a beginner hoping to get better and move up!

    Having said that, I'll just say again that I thought betting was good because I had never seen him c/r the turn. I had only seen him bet it or c/f it. So when he checked I thought I was good to go with him being on a FD and so, like you have said, I wanted to get money in while I believed I was ahead or, failing that, take the pot right there.
  17. #17
    Completely thought you were talkin bout flop not turn. Nvm all i said

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