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Originally Posted by CoccoBill
No it isn't, you have yourself admitted that order without a government is impossible. This is the same reason why your island scenarios don't apply to reality, they ignore all of the factors that make up modern societies. Stripping a problem to its bare "fundamentals" does not in any way prove that the particular mechanism you're assessing is the only, or even the most powerful mechanism in play. The only flaw in the system is that we are humans with selfish motivations, we are evolved as hunter-gatherers adapted to living in small communities, not in large societies.
Right, I agree. We are all human beings with our own mind and our own greedy desires. It's very hard (impossible) to give anyone the power to govern and expect them to remain honest, so that power has to be divided up to prevent the greed of individual men from harming the nation. It seems like the only way to effectively govern is to divide the power of government. I want to divide it up as much as possible, giving each person the freedom to govern themselves, and you want a more centralized, paternal government.
Either way its quality depends on the quality of the people and their education/understanding of how decisions affect their lives and of those around them, so I guess the best way to solve our problems is via education and discussions like this one.
We still fundamentally disagree on a major point -- I think each person should be trusted to make decisions about their lives and bear the risk of each personal decision. This doesn't seem perfect because it would frustrate us endlessly to see stupid people being taken advantage of by smarter people.
It's like being three on an island and watching the dumb man trade a pound of salt for an ounce of fish, over and over again. Or borrowing fish for a year and owing the other man for the rest of their lives. It wouldn't seem moral to avoid intervening, but I think it would be immoral. Our only moral option, IMO, is to sit down with the dumb man and educate him or offer advice. If you slap his hand when he tries to make dumb decisions he will simply resent you for blocking access to something he really wants, which will lower his quality of life -- he will continually feel abused by your power, and fail to see the big picture that you see (longer, richer life.) He will only see your immediate actions and never realize that you are helping to make him live longer and be richer and avoid abuse.
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