Pot control or protect top pair?

[DonkeyBets]

$0.01/$0.02 No Limit Holdem
PokerStars
8 Players
Hand Conversion Powered by WeakTight Poker Hand History Converter

Stacks:
UTG troyano422 ($1.99) 100bb
UTG+1 GS GS116 ($0.76) 38bb
MP1 Hero ($1.47) 74bb
MP2 nikolai218 ($2.72) 136bb
CO Bigeld ($1.52) 76bb
BTN droozh ($0.92) 46bb
SB held11 ($1.76) 88bb
BB X-56 ($4.44) 222bb

Pre-Flop: (0.03, 8 players) Hero is MP1
troyano422 raises to $0.04, 1 fold, Hero raises to $0.10, 1 fold, Bigeld calls $0.10, 3 folds, troyano422 calls $0.06
Flop: ($0.33, 3 players)

troyano422 bets $0.16, Hero calls $0.16, Bigeld calls $0.16

Turn: ($0.81, 3)
troyano422 bets $0.06, Hero calls $0.06, Bigeld calls $0.06 River: ($0.99, 3)

troyano422 checks, Hero bets $0.10, Bigeld goes all-in $1.20, troyano422 folds, Hero folds

Final Pot: $2.29

Bigeld wins $2.25 (net +$0.73)

troyano422 lost $0.32
Hero lost $0.42

[DonkeyBets]

I had ATo, maybe should have made a 3x Raise preflop instead of .10, when the calls preflop and bets out at me i wasnt sure what to think of it . i thought maybe he also has top pair or a set and trying to get value/protection because of the drawy board, I also thought about raising but i didnt want to make the pot super huge i figured i shoud just call and see what happens. should I have re-raised him on the flop ? the turn card is a 7of clubs making 3 to a flush i decide to just call and get to a river without making the pot too big because my hand isnt the best either . The river was a terrible card making 4 to a straight, i make a small bet to try and see a cheap showdown if the player behind me has me beat, he then goes all in and I fold. what do you think of the hand ?

[MadMojoMonkey]

Before I get into it, just know that this hand is OK. It's 2NL, and TPTK is often the nuts on a flop. If anything, a general read that an open from UTG should represent a super strong range of hands is appropriate. (Whether or not this villain is playing tight enough from UTG I can't say, because you haven't said.)
I wouldn't hate a blocker bet OTT, as the bet to pot ratio is laughable.
Against 2 opponents on that board, with an UTG raiser still in the hand, it's not likely that TPTK is winning.



You gotta pay more attention to the Villains. You haven't told us anything about them in your write up.
I don't know you at all, but it reads like typical level-0 poker thinking. You're aware of your cards, but not your opponents cards.
No judgement from me. We all started there.
Just try to transition in to playing poker against each individual opponent, and not as though there's a right way to play "your" hand.


***
These are the most important questions to ask yourself when posting a hand history... if you don't know the answers, that's fine. Ask us, instead:

When you called the UTG raise, what hands do you expect him to have opened with?

When the CO calls behind, what hands do you expect him to have?


OTF when the pre-flop raiser bets 1/2 pot, what hands from his pre-flop range will he do that when it's 3-handed?

When CO calls behind you OTF, what is his range of hands to call?


etc.

Use a poker calculator to find your hand's equities against those ranges.

[OngBonga]

You really need to be posting reads. Not for our benefit, for yours. The guy who is UTG, is he playing a lot of hands? Is he playing less hands in early position than late position?

Pre flop this could be a fold, call or raise. It depends.

Flop could be a call or raise. It depends.

Turn, I guess calling is the right move here. I hate this bet though, it is weak. If there wasn't another guy to act after me, I'd raise turn. But we're three handed and this board is ugly, I'd play with caution.

River, don't bet 1/10th of the pot, especially on this river. You're basically telling everyone you don't have a flush or a straight. This is a terrible bet and a terrible river. I'd either check-fold or check-call, depending on the bet size and my reads on villains.

You need to get better at reading villains and making notes, this should be your priority.

[DonkeyBets]

Guys I really appreciate the answers this is the exact responses I need to get better, I’m having a hard time placing people on ranges because there are so many possibilities, are hand range charts what I should be spending my time studying? Do you guys ever see a player Donk bet like this utg or is this a micro play?im not sure what to make of somebody Donk-betting, does It mean they have QQ-AA sometimes and just trying to build a small pot, a medium hand like KQ , QJ or small pocket pair min raising and trying to hit set( I know it depends if he plays right or loose) ..
when CO calls behind I expect his range to be fairly wide suited connectors 88,98s,99,T9s TT,,J-9, JT, JQ,
Maybe sometimes 7-10s, 8-10s
( sorry still working on my notation skills I know not best )

“wouldn't hate a blocker bet OTT, as the bet to pot ratio is laughable.”

Sorry I’m pretty new to poker could you elaborate on this? What is a blocker bet On the turn, like a very small re raise to UTGs bet? What do you mean by pot to bet ratio being laughable ?

[MadMojoMonkey]

For understanding hand ranges, keep in mind that it's something you'll never be perfect at. It takes years of study to get confident in the subtleties. Just keep pecking away at it. A lot clicks into place in random "aha" moments while you're studying ranges. It's daunting, but definitely worth it.

For starters, use a poker calculator when you study. They're invaluable at doing all the math in the background for you. Most of them have sliders for you to set a range of hands. Those sliders often are %-age based, and that's the tool you'll be using first. If someone is playing 30% of hands (from a specific position), then you put them on the 30% range your calculator suggests. It wont be perfect, but it'll be pretty close most of the time.

Next, pay attention to whether each villain is playing tighter in early positions than later positions. You definitely should be. Most of them wont be. Quickly spotting which players have a sense of positional awareness when it comes to pre-flop opening ranges is a good tell that they're at least trying to study the game and not a purely recreational fish. Adjust your play against them accordingly.

***
First, the bet to pot ratio is the amount of the bet divided by the amount in the pot. Sometimes abbreviated as {fraction} PSB (Pot-Sized Bet)
The turn bet is 6 into 81. That's close enough to 1/14. Freaking great odds if you're on a draw, but YOU aren't on a draw.

Note: you only need to be good 1 in 16 times to make a profitable call against that bet. BET/(BET+POT) is the % of times you need to win the bet to make a break-even call. Any more than that is printing money.
Do you want Villain to be drawing on his hand with those odds? NO
You want to force him to decide to make a bad call or fold his draw. He relies on you paying off his bad call to make any money... so be wary of paying off when draws come through.

Finally... I kinda mis-spoke. Villain has placed a blocker bet. His bet is too small to be meaningful, and its intent is to get ahead of any larger bets that may be made by anyone else on this street (or so it seems), and it worked. You probably would have bet more than $0.06 if he checked to you, eh? Hopefully something closer to $0.60 (~2/3 PSB).

What I wouldn't mind from you on the turn would better be described as a protection bet. You think you have the best hand and Villain is on a draw, so you don't want him to get a free card, and you don't want him to be priced in for the card, either. (see above).

***
Fun fact: when you start thinking of bet-sizes in terms of PSB, you can easily simplify one of the most important equations (one you should be calculating in your head every single time a bet is made).
BET/(BET+POT)
That's easily understood as your current risk / your potential reward. In that form, I'm counting the Villain's bet as already part of the pot. If you call, you'll be adding another bet to the pot, so that is part of the total reward.
I.e. after you call, you will have paid X and now the pot contains Y. You need to win that bet X/Y times to break even. More than that often is winning.

When thinking in terms of {fraction} PSB, it is super easy.

1/2 PSB -> 1/(1+1+2) = 1/4 = 25%
To make a profitable call against a 2/3 PSB, you need to win at least 28.6% of the time.

2/3 PSB -> 2/(2+2+3) = 2/7 ~= 28.6%
To make a profitable call against a 2/3 PSB, you need to win at least 28.6% of the time.

3/4 PSB -> 3/(3+3+4) = 3/10 = 30%
To make a profitable call against a 3/4 PSB, you need to win at least 30% of the time.

In this hand, OTT, the best was close to 1/14 PSB
Villain only needs it to be profitable 1/(1+1+14) = 1/16 ~= 6.3%
Villain only needs to win that bet 6.3% of the time for it to be a good bet, and that's assuming no one ever folds to it, which they will, so his equity is even better.

[MadMojoMonkey]

*EDIT
1/2 PSB -> 1/(1+1+2) = 1/4 = 25%
To make a profitable call against a 1/2 PSB, you need to win at least 25% of the time.

[OngBonga]

I’m having a hard time placing people on ranges because there are so many possibilities

I would recommend taking the link below and reading through the various topics discussed. You find some decent tips from old members of the forum who are better at poker than me and mojo.

Beginner's digest - https://www.flopturnriver.com/pokerf...re-196912.html

Putting people on a range is overwhelming at first, you're right that there are so many possibilities, and it's complicated further by the fact people at lower stakes tend to be unpredictable (in a bad way). Strong players are unpredictable in a good way, in that they balance their range to make it harder for people to read them. Bad players can be unpredictable because they play hands they shouldn't play in ways they shouldn't play them.

This is why it's important to take notice of what everyone is doing. Identify who the bad players are, who is playing solid, and work from there. When you start to profile your opponents, you'll naturally start to get better at putting them on ranges.

This article should help you with ranges...
https://www.flopturnriver.com/pokerf...ge-177508.html

I would recommend reading as much as possible from spoonitnow. He knows his poker, especially the mathematical side of things, and is a good coach.

[DonkeyBets]

Ok thank you for all the info and resources. On another forum people were saying small stack strategy is not a thing anymore is this true? Obviously you can win more with more in front of you but should you always top up when at a certain amount of bb if possible or is playing short still an option?

[OngBonga]

I prefer to keep myself fully stacked in cash games, but as a beginner some people prefer not to. It's a personal preference. If you're a winning player, then you're losing value by not being fully stacked, but if you're losing money, then it can be argued you're saving money while you learn. It's a lot more important to be playing the lowest stakes possible while you're learning, which you are.

[MadMojoMonkey]

There are different strategies to playing a short stack than playing a deep stack.
You can't learn to play short stack and then play the same deep stack and keep winning.

The BIG deal is that when you're on a short stack, you limit the value of your opponents' all-in shoves, and you increase the frequency of your all-in shoves and calling their shoves as a consequence.

You play a looser game. If Villain shoves $2, but you can only call with $1, then you're correct to call with a wider range than if you were putting the full $2 at risk. The bet-to-pot ratio is increased because you have a limit on the max bet size.

You'll be shoving more because if you're on a good draw and you're thinking of betting or calling an amount that will leave your stack at less than 1/2 pot after the Villain(s) call, you're probably better off to shove now.
That's true for any stack, or maybe, the way you should bet based on the biggest stack in the hand.
Managing your stack-to-pot ratio is another one of those slow burns when learning poker. You'll find yourself in some very weird spots on later streets for a while, but eventually, it clicks. Then you can put Villains in those spots. Like, they call your turn bet, but when they catch their draw, they can't even bet enough to cover the cost of the draw, so even when they win this battle, they still lose the war.


Bit off topic... short stack poker... right.

Another problem with playing a short stack game is what happens when you win the pot? You're not short-stacked anymore and you better know how to play a deep stack now.
IMO, just isolate those 2 things. Just learn the basics of deep-stack poker first without the clouding of adding short-stack play in.
My advice would be the different if this were a tournament poker thread. (No one should listen to me about tournament poker, though.)

[DonkeyBets]

Thank you for the input ,I need to learn more about every avenue of poker this was helpful