dem 4b pots BVB- flop TP shitty kicker - CB and get RR for dem stackz

[TheLongGrind]

PokerStars - $0.10 NL FAST - Holdem - 9 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4

BTN: 48.5 BB
Hero (SB): 112.1 BB
BB: 422.4 BB (VPIP: 22.86, PFR: 22.86, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 35)
UTG: 135 BB (VPIP: 9.87, PFR: 7.13, 3Bet Preflop: 2.69, Hands: 554)
UTG+1: 39.9 BB (VPIP: 16.34, PFR: 15.32, 3Bet Preflop: 9.76, Hands: 368)
UTG+2: 100 BB (VPIP: 15.87, PFR: 14.29, 3Bet Preflop: 4.55, Hands: 65)
MP: 94.1 BB (VPIP: 18.59, PFR: 17.95, 3Bet Preflop: 6.73, Hands: 319)
MP+1: 104 BB (VPIP: 7.55, PFR: 5.66, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 53)
CO: 48.5 BB (VPIP: 7.93, PFR: 6.19, 3Bet Preflop: 1.20, Hands: 230)

Hero posts SB 0.5 BB, BB posts BB 1 BB

Pre Flop: (pot: 1.5 BB) Hero has A 9

fold, fold, fold, fold, fold, fold, fold, Hero raises to 3 BB, BB raises to 8 BB, Hero raises to 21 BB, BB calls 13 BB

Flop: (42 BB, 2 players) 3 A 4
Hero bets 15 BB, BB raises to 401.4 BB and is all-in, dem hero?

BB wins 68.8 BB

[OngBonga]

Ok let's try again -

r/f pre. Easy oop with A9o vs a 0% 3bet over 35 hands. As played fold. This hand is horrible.

Also, stop typing like retarded people talk.

[TheLongGrind]

Ok let's try again -

r/f pre. Easy oop with A9o vs a 0% 3bet over 35 hands. As played fold. This hand is horrible.

Also, stop typing like retarded people talk.

stop being so wude i'm not wetawded i got a typing disowdew. dem hatez gonna hate

[OngBonga]

stop being so wude i'm not wetawded i got a typing disowdew. dem hatez gonna hate

That amused me slightly, well done. Not stop sucking so bad at poker.

Tell us - why didn't you fold when he 3bets you pre? When you 4bet, is it a bluff? What hands in his range do you think he folds that beats us? Is it value? What worse does he call? Seems to me that your thought process is something like "I got dem ace bvb, I got das nutz, omg I floppd da top pair, omfg donk into 4bet pot, shit the bed he raised, better post hand on dem FTR." You also seem to have a poker thought process disorder.

[TheLongGrind]

lulz. Obv i'm not donking the flop since i made the 4b oop durr durr durr. Secondly preflop it's obv pure bluff , got dat blocker. Thirdly he shouldn't be callign with worse obv. not like we are on some hi level shit. postflop i don't really understand why he would play AQ , AJ that way , supersafe board why push me out ? AK kind of exepect him to 5 bet shove BVB unless he is more mentally challenged than me.

so actually thinking about it , i should have called the flop then. hmmzz. levels?

[OngBonga]

Oh yeah sorry you didn't donk, I fail too.

So it's a bluff. Cool. What better hands do you figure he's 3betting with that he then goes on to fold? How did you go about putting him on a range to make this determination?

And flop is ridiculously easy fold unless we have reads that he shoves crap like TT here.

[Nostalgia]

I have to agree that the flop is a very easy fold. Villain clearly hit a set or - even though it's not in his range at all - flopped a low straight.

[TheLongGrind]

I have to agree that the flop is a very easy fold. Villain clearly hit a set or - even though it's not in his range at all - flopped a low straight.

lulz

[Razvan729]

your stats? i think BB sees you as speewy, but still he has you beat on the flop.
no notes on how he got to 400bb on such a nitty table like that?

[TheLongGrind]

well yeah obv that's why I folded Ong , but however , got to admit if u were in villains shoes why the fuck would u jam better Ax here?

[TheLongGrind]

Hi Razvan , no mate , it's zoom no idea.

[TheLongGrind]

Oh yeah sorry you didn't donk, I fail too.

So it's a bluff. Cool. What better hands do you figure he's 3betting with that he then goes on to fold? How did you go about putting him on a range to make this determination?

And flop is ridiculously easy fold unless we have reads that he shoves crap like TT here.

i obv dont mean to 4bet A9 to get him to fold better hands , rather 4 betting to get him to fold all his 3b bluffing range ( since i don't wanna play A9o here in 3b pot oop) . If he happens to 3b hands like small pairs , some Kx and Qx he doesnt want to call pre , i might actually be ahead but that shouldnt be of any concern cuz he should be folding to my 4b anyways.) Postflop doent make any sense at all to me so i took the safe path and folded but again , why the fuck would u jam better Ax , or any Ax for that matter on this board in a facking 4b pot. it's not like we are in some sick level GTO war. But then again maybe villain is not giving a fuck and fistpumping hard with his AQ and saying Toppair good kicker is the nizzles , i'm all in without understanding he is pushing out all the bluffs i might have in my range. Makes sense?

[OngBonga]

I'm not villain, so it doesn't matter what I'd do on this flop in villain's shoes. And besides, I might shove this flop with AK if I felt villain would call Ax or flush draw, because AK is next to the nuts in this spot, seeing as the hands beating AK are unlikely to be in your range, with the exception of AA, which is one combo. He probably recognises that he already has maximum value post flop vs your TT-KK, so he might as well target your Ax and hearts.

Just fold pre. Bluffing A9 trying to get his bluffs to fold doesn't seem great to me. There's no reason to think he has any bluffs, he hasn't 3bet yet, despite his aggressive tendancies pre and his big stack. He seems to me to be playing tight aggressive poker, picking off fish who can't fold their top pair hands. If you folded to flop shove, kudos to you for not being heavily exploited by this guy. Hopefully he'll keep on shoving into your bets because eventually he'll shove his tptk into your set. But you still made a mistake, imo, when you 4bet him pre instead of folding. I can make a stand with A9o if he's continually 3betting me, but he isn't, so this one we should respect.

[griffey24]

Well... I'm not choosing this sizing if my intention is to fold that's for sure. Betting so small you're just gonna induce a raise, so I'm gonna call now.

Also if you don't know what to do here, then it's not horrible to c/c. You'll conceivable having some QQ/KK in your range that might check here, so it's nice to have some Ax c/c too.

[OngBonga]

griff, do you think the 4bet pre is sound? I'll admit I'm lost post flop because I don't tend to play ace rag oop in 4bet pots.

[griffey24]

I think a good baseline assumption is that most ppl 3b and either 5b or fold to a 4b (ie: don't call often).

I think under that common assumption this 4b pre is fine. It's good for blockers (blocking his AQ/AK/AA/99) that might 3b/5b, and obviously A9o isn't good enough to call OOP here.

Given that we now know he flats 4b, we might want to start 4b bluff more playable hands like KQ/KJ/AJ etc.

[TheLongGrind]

thanks griffey for your insights. and you 2 bonga though i kind of agree with griffey more. especially on the C/C line postflop. my bet is superbad if i'm not calling shove i guess. Is betting 1/3 pot in a 4b pot rlly that small? I assumed it was ' standard'

[griffey24]

Yah I think it is standard, and I would use that sizing with all my bluffs as well.

But once i DO choose that size, I just wouldn't be contemplating folding very often, that's all.

I mean what hands really make sense for villain to be SHOVING outright here, that don't shove preflop? He'll probably jam AK pre. He MIGHT play AQ this way, and it could make sense for him to just shove AQ. AJ? AJ might call sometimes, since it loses to AQ/AK, but I suppose it could shove as well. I doubt AT (if he has that) is shoving.

KQhh? QJhh? JThh? Any other flush draw might also be jamming here.

By my calculations we need about 37.5% or so equity to b/c here. I think this is one of those important spots where equity does not tell the whole story. This is the approximate equity we have (assuming villain is only shoving AQs/AJs - to discount some times where he might call flop instead):

Ad9c 35.16%
AxQx,Axjx,KhQh,JhQh,JhTh 64.84%

Looking at this we could conclude that we should not call, since we don't have 37.5% equity vs his range.

What about if we bet 30bb on the flop? Suddenly if we bet 30bb on the flop we only need 30% equity to call. So now this is a clear b/c.

Does this intuitively make sense? If we bet bigger, and represent a strong hand the math tells us to call, but if we bet smaller and represent a weak hand, the math tells us to fold.

It's important to think about all of your sizing options and what they might do to villains range. This is a spot where hero could easily bet 30-35bb on the flop and say "shrug oh well he shoved, I'm priced into calling". But it's clearly better to bet 15bb here, induce a shove from villain and call (when the math says not to, within reason ofcourse) vs a range that is likely weaker than in the former situation.

[OngBonga]

thanks griffey for your insights. and you 2 bonga though i kind of agree with griffey more. especially on the C/C line postflop. my bet is superbad if i'm not calling shove i guess. Is betting 1/3 pot in a 4b pot rlly that small? I assumed it was ' standard'

Yeah I'd agree with griff more in your shoes, I'm not going to pretend I know better than him. I don't think folding to the 3bet is going to be a mistake, but it's entirely possible I'm just not taking a lot of 4bet bluffs because I'm oop and play micros where I don't feel I'm going to get the required frequency of folds. The fact I want to c/f this flop shows why it's probably wise I don't 4bet this pre.

A9s, I think I'm more likely to 4bet this because we can rep huge strength when we flop a flush draw, and if he isn't folding we have plenty of equity.

[TheLongGrind]

griffey , that last post was pure gold. +1 thnx alot I agree that betsize in this particular case manipulates his range and I know clearly understand that i should have B/C with my sizing on the flop.

Without being a suckup , one of the most insightfull posts i have read on a pokerforum since a while. This is almost as good as crispy bacon

[TheLongGrind]

yeah Ong I agree , it was at best a marginal spot preflop and since i suck postflop probably not the best of ideas. I'm kind of experimenting a bit preflop and trying to 4bet more in obvious spots where i get 3bet. In zoom you sometimes need to take preflop spots vs unknowns. ' I know you don't know me hence i 3 bet' aggro's. Vs the players i do have significant samples on , most of them hardly 3bet enough to warrant 4 betting.

[griffey24]

griffey , that last post was pure gold. +1 thnx alot I agree that betsize in this particular case manipulates his range and I know clearly understand that i should have B/C with my sizing on the flop.

Without being a suckup , one of the most insightfull posts i have read on a pokerforum since a while. This is almost as good as crispy bacon

Haha no problem, glad it helped!

[OngBonga]

yeah Ong I agree , it was at best a marginal spot preflop and since i suck postflop probably not the best of ideas. I'm kind of experimenting a bit preflop and trying to 4bet more in obvious spots where i get 3bet. In zoom you sometimes need to take preflop spots vs unknowns. ' I know you don't know me hence i 3 bet' aggro's. Vs the players i do have significant samples on , most of them hardly 3bet enough to warrant 4 betting.

This is all fair enough, but you've picked a villain who you haven't seen 3bet yet, which is why I think we should respect his 3bet. There's a lot of people at these stakes who just don't 3bet light because they feel they do not need to, that they get enough value from their value hands to not feel compelled to take risks to steal a raise or balance their 3bet range.

It doesn't feel like we're making a stand here, it feels like we're blindly bluffing in the hope he's bluffing.

[TheLongGrind]

in a vacuum, unknown vs unknown ; 3betting blind vs blind with pos seems the common thing to do.