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77 spikes set

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  1. #1

    Default 77 spikes set

    Merge - $0.04 NL - Holdem - 9 players
    Hand converted by PokerTracker 4

    MP+1: 105.25 BB (VPIP: 49.21, PFR: 19.05, 3Bet Preflop: 4.61, Hands: 380)
    CO: 100.75 BB (VPIP: 15.14, PFR: 10.78, 3Bet Preflop: 5.08, Hands: 2,838)
    BTN: 28.5 BB (VPIP: 23.94, PFR: 16.50, 3Bet Preflop: 7.74, Hands: 502)
    SB: 66 BB (VPIP: 5.26, PFR: 3.95, 3Bet Preflop: 4.55, Hands: 78)
    BB: 100 BB (VPIP: 17.05, PFR: 10.23, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 88)
    Hero (UTG): 108.25 BB
    UTG+1: 128.75 BB (VPIP: 12.83, PFR: 7.96, 3Bet Preflop: 3.95, Hands: 228)
    UTG+2: 95 BB (VPIP: 13.82, PFR: 6.26, 3Bet Preflop: 1.91, Hands: 612)
    MP: 98.5 BB (VPIP: 8.96, PFR: 7.46, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 68)

    SB posts SB 0.5 BB, BB posts BB 1 BB

    Pre Flop: (pot: 1.5 BB) Hero has 7 7

    Hero raises to 3.5 BB, fold, fold, fold, MP+1 calls 3.5 BB, fold, fold, fold, fold

    Flop: (8.5 BB, 2 players) 6 7 T
    Hero bets 6.25 BB, MP+1 calls 6.25 BB

    Turn: (21 BB, 2 players) J
    Hero bets 23.5 BB

    sorry about no notes on opp, just started up this session, and I hadn't been taking notes until just recently. thoughts?
    http://zorkion.blogspot.com/
    Letting the Cards Fall - Tracking my progress in the pursuit of profitability.
  2. #2
    Quote Originally Posted by Zorkion View Post

    sorry about no notes on opp, just started up this session, and I hadn't been taking notes until just recently. thoughts?
    I'm glad you stated this, but you can practice notes , and reads when you post too. i mean you got 380 hands on villain,what is his Ftocbet?

    Also what range do you give villain? Pre, Flop, and Turn?

    Given villains stats and reads. how do think his range interesects with the flop?

    BTW: how many tables are you playing now? i would highly, highly suggest 2. 3 if its FR.

    . Believe me dude. I wanna see you excel. your using Poker tracker 4 right? shit it takes notes for you. at leaast paste some of them in until you have your own.

    when you get some ranges and notes. i'll put in my two cents
    "We're all just a million little gods causing rainstorms, turning every good thing to rust...."AF
  3. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by WeldPhaser View Post
    I'm glad you stated this, but you can practice notes , and reads when you post too. i mean you got 380 hands on villain,what is his Ftocbet?

    Also what range do you give villain? Pre, Flop, and Turn?

    Given villains stats and reads. how do think his range interesects with the flop?

    BTW: how many tables are you playing now? i would highly, highly suggest 2. 3 if its FR.

    . Believe me dude. I wanna see you excel. your using Poker tracker 4 right? shit it takes notes for you. at leaast paste some of them in until you have your own.

    when you get some ranges and notes. i'll put in my two cents
    flop fold to cbet is 40%

    ranges-

    preflop: 22+,A2s+,K2s+,Q5s+,J7s+,T8s+,97s+,87s,A2o+,K6o+,Q8 o+,J8o+,T8o+,98o

    flop: 66-tt, 67-ak, 97s+, t7+, kxs, axs
    turn: well, same range, but assuming

    he calls: 66-tt, 67, 78, 89, 9t, tj, axs(hearts), kxs, t7, tj
    he raises: 66,77,tt,67, t7, jt, 89

    basically, i think I have his range pretty crushed in this spot. sorry for not clarifying eariler, but i meant for the focus of this hand analysis to be on the bet sizing.

    after a few people mentioned it on my hhs and in my operation post, I cut down my # of tables first from 9-12 to 3-4, and then again to merely 2 tables. Speaking of that though, does anyone have advice on what sort of metric I should use for when I can move back up to 3-4 tables? Im not really sure how to think about it.
    http://zorkion.blogspot.com/
    Letting the Cards Fall - Tracking my progress in the pursuit of profitability.
  4. #4
    MadMojoMonkey's Avatar
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    OK, it looks like you used a slider and dragged it over to 40% and copy/pasted what it gave you.

    That is not YOU putting him on a range.


    There's a lot of unusual stuff in that range (K6o-K9o,Q5s) and a lot of stuff that I would expect to see that is missing (SC's, S1G's). Oh, and the conspicuous lack QXo.

    More to the point, do you think it's reasonable to assume that Villain's playing his entire VPIP range when he calls a UTG raise from HJ?

    EDIT:
    This makes more sense for a 40% (I'm not saying this is Villain's range, just that it makes more sense to me as a reasonable 40% range)
    { 22+, A2s+, K2s+, Q8s+, J8s+, T7s+, 97s+, 86s+, 75s+, 64s+, 54s, A2o+, K9o+, Q9o+, J9o+, T8o+, 98o }
    Last edited by MadMojoMonkey; 08-27-2013 at 09:51 PM.
  5. #5
    In a vacuum, your play is fine. The only thing I can add would be evaluating what's in your UTG open raise. I've heard it said that 77 is too wide for early position in a low-stakes FR cash game, with so many to act behind and that many more chances to be racing/dominated when you get to a flop.
  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by MadMojoMonkey View Post
    OK, it looks like you used a slider and dragged it over to 40% and copy/pasted what it gave you.

    That is not YOU putting him on a range.


    There's a lot of unusual stuff in that range (K6o-K9o,Q5s) and a lot of stuff that I would expect to see that is missing (SC's, S1G's). Oh, and the conspicuous lack QXo.

    More to the point, do you think it's reasonable to assume that Villain's playing his entire VPIP range when he calls a UTG raise from HJ?

    EDIT:
    This makes more sense for a 40% (I'm not saying this is Villain's range, just that it makes more sense to me as a reasonable 40% range)
    { 22+, A2s+, K2s+, Q8s+, J8s+, T7s+, 97s+, 86s+, 75s+, 64s+, 54s, A2o+, K9o+, Q9o+, J9o+, T8o+, 98o }
    yeah, its true...I've been relying a bit on pokerstoves auto ranges, which I know is flawed, but I usually just just use it as a starting point for thinking about ranges. opp has 49% to call a 2bet in mp. I guess you're right, I need to think harder about ranges...
    http://zorkion.blogspot.com/
    Letting the Cards Fall - Tracking my progress in the pursuit of profitability.
  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Zorkion View Post

    after a few people mentioned it on my hhs and in my operation post, I cut down my # of tables first from 9-12 to 3-4, and then again to merely 2 tables. Speaking of that though, does anyone have advice on what sort of metric I should use for when I can move back up to 3-4 tables? Im not really sure how to think about it.
    don't even worry bout that for right now, concentrate on your observation skills.
    "We're all just a million little gods causing rainstorms, turning every good thing to rust...."AF
  8. #8
    When you can keep track of every single thing that happens playing two tables and don't miss out on any information and can sustain this for at least an hour really. Then you can think about adding time/ 1 table
  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by ImSavy View Post
    When you can keep track of every single thing that happens playing two tables and don't miss out on any information and can sustain this for at least an hour really without even thinking about it. Then you can think about adding time/ 1 table
    .
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  10. #10
    It's an important skill to have, to be able to think without even thinking about it.
  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by jackvance View Post
    It's an important skill to have, to be able to think without even thinking about it.
    It makes perfect sense.

    When your concentration starts going you have to think about it and get your attention back on poker, if at no point do you have to think this you are doing it without thinking about it.
  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by jackvance View Post
    It's an important skill to have, to be able to think without even thinking about it.
    "In the case of archery, the hitter and the hit are no longer two opposing objects, but are one reality."
    Normski
  13. #13
    MadMojoMonkey's Avatar
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    We can't just call it being "in the zone" anymore?


    Zorkion: Please take into account what you said about ranges, and that Villain is calling a UTG raise from HJ, and post another guess to his range. No matter how long it takes you to do this, it's is the most important way you can spend your study time at this point in you poker growth. You simply must start putting villains on ranges. Understanding ranges (both Villain's and your own) is fundamental.

    The reason is that it's impossible to determine if a line you take is the most profitable without an idea of villains' tendencies. Once you have an idea of what they'll do, you can decide how to best exploit them.

    As you keep posting ranges and getting feedback from the forum, you'll get better and faster.
  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by WillburForce View Post
    "In the case of archery, the hitter and the hit are no longer two opposing objects, but are one reality."
    That's the kinds of sayings I don't like. Sure they can be true in a certain context and with a certain interpretation, but that can be said about almost everything and this is kinda meh.
  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by MadMojoMonkey View Post
    We can't just call it being "in the zone" anymore?


    Zorkion: Please take into account what you said about ranges, and that Villain is calling a UTG raise from HJ, and post another guess to his range. No matter how long it takes you to do this, it's is the most important way you can spend your study time at this point in you poker growth. You simply must start putting villains on ranges. Understanding ranges (both Villain's and your own) is fundamental.

    The reason is that it's impossible to determine if a line you take is the most profitable without an idea of villains' tendencies. Once you have an idea of what they'll do, you can decide how to best exploit them.

    As you keep posting ranges and getting feedback from the forum, you'll get better and faster.
    alright, heres my revised guess fro his calling in hj of my utg bet:

    22-qqm a6s-ajs, k8s+, q9s+, j9s+, t8s+, 97s+, 86s+, 75s+, 65s+, 54s, a9o-ajo, kto+, qto+, j9o+, t9o, 98o, 87o

    sound reasonable?
    http://zorkion.blogspot.com/
    Letting the Cards Fall - Tracking my progress in the pursuit of profitability.
  16. #16
    MadMojoMonkey's Avatar
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    OK, that's much better than before. Remember that this is still a guess, so the edges are probably wrong, but the core is probably right... Does that make sense?
    E.g. I find it unlikely that Villain has QQ,AKs but not AQ in his range here. I could be wrong, though... how this Villain 3-bets is unknown to me. I'd be shocked if 22-88 and the weak broadway hands were not in villain's range. It wouldn't be surprising at all to find out that Villain doesn't play A9o, but does play all AX suited.

    OK, so let's think about the flop:
    Villain's flop fold-to-C-bet stat is 40%. Just as a raw statistic, if you played 100% PRE, about 50% of the time, you'd have a pair or better OTF. For all the hands that don't start as a PP, the odds are about 33%.

    SO, if Villain continues with any pair, their fold to C-bet would be between 50% and 67%, which is what we find here. Villain folds to C-bets 40%, so Villain continues to C-bets 60%. This means that Villain is unlikely to fold middle pair (maybe even bottom pair) and some %-age of draws, too.

    If we can assume that Villain raises some %-age of hands when facing a C-bet, then we can confine Villain's range to call a C-bet even further. Do you think Villain does this?

    If so, what % of the time do you think Villain raises a C-bet, and what portion of Villains range (the one you gave in the prior post) would do that on this flop?

    Taking this into account. What is Villains range when he calls the C-bet OTF?
  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by jackvance View Post
    That's the kinds of sayings I don't like. Sure they can be true in a certain context and with a certain interpretation, but that can be said about almost everything and this is kinda meh.
    Wax on, wax off.
    Normski
  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by WillburForce View Post
    Wax on, wax off.
    Now that is undeniably awesome.
  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by MadMojoMonkey View Post
    OK, that's much better than before. Remember that this is still a guess, so the edges are probably wrong, but the core is probably right... Does that make sense?
    E.g. I find it unlikely that Villain has QQ,AKs but not AQ in his range here. I could be wrong, though... how this Villain 3-bets is unknown to me. I'd be shocked if 22-88 and the weak broadway hands were not in villain's range. It wouldn't be surprising at all to find out that Villain doesn't play A9o, but does play all AX suited.

    OK, so let's think about the flop:
    Villain's flop fold-to-C-bet stat is 40%. Just as a raw statistic, if you played 100% PRE, about 50% of the time, you'd have a pair or better OTF. For all the hands that don't start as a PP, the odds are about 33%.

    SO, if Villain continues with any pair, their fold to C-bet would be between 50% and 67%, which is what we find here. Villain folds to C-bets 40%, so Villain continues to C-bets 60%. This means that Villain is unlikely to fold middle pair (maybe even bottom pair) and some %-age of draws, too.

    If we can assume that Villain raises some %-age of hands when facing a C-bet, then we can confine Villain's range to call a C-bet even further. Do you think Villain does this?

    If so, what % of the time do you think Villain raises a C-bet, and what portion of Villains range (the one you gave in the prior post) would do that on this flop?

    Taking this into account. What is Villains range when he calls the C-bet OTF?
    Zork, this is where things start gettin warm & fuzzy. If what MMM is asking you seems overwhelming make sure you speak up about it. Don't be afraid your going to say something wrong or stupid.

    Once you start being able to work this stuff out every single aspect of your game will get easier, just remember they're is no perfect answer when compiling ranges. It's def guesswork like mmm said, but it's guesswork we can get really good at by practicing it, and using equilab/pokerstove. (i know you saaid you use pokerstove, maybe give equilab a try also. very similar, but has some features stove doesn't.) our guesswork improves with the quality of our opponent observation also.

    I can tell your motivated zork. that's good, Keep posting, we'll keep offering our advice and challenging you.

    gl
    "We're all just a million little gods causing rainstorms, turning every good thing to rust...."AF
  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by WeldPhaser View Post
    Zork, this is where things start gettin warm & fuzzy. If what MMM is asking you seems overwhelming make sure you speak up about it. Don't be afraid your going to say something wrong or stupid.

    Once you start being able to work this stuff out every single aspect of your game will get easier, just remember they're is no perfect answer when compiling ranges. It's def guesswork like mmm said, but it's guesswork we can get really good at by practicing it, and using equilab/pokerstove. (i know you saaid you use pokerstove, maybe give equilab a try also. very similar, but has some features stove doesn't.) our guesswork improves with the quality of our opponent observation also.

    I can tell your motivated zork. that's good, Keep posting, we'll keep offering our advice and challenging you.

    gl
    Honestly, the amount of help you guys are willing to give is one of the most motivating things about this game. What MMM is talking about makes sense, I've done some of this work in the past, but its been a while. Also, I'll be sure to give equilab a shot.

    Alright, so here's what i think opp is calling the flop bet with: TT-88,66,AJs,A9s-A6s,KJs+,K9s-K8s,QJs,Q9s,J9s,97s+,86s+,75s,65s,54s,87o. I think opp is raising his 2 pair hands, overpairs, and non-flushing straights, flatting with sets, and generally calling with medium strength hands that have some draws.

    Thanks again for the help, you guys. It's much appreciated
    http://zorkion.blogspot.com/
    Letting the Cards Fall - Tracking my progress in the pursuit of profitability.
  21. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by MadMojoMonkey View Post
    OK, that's much better than before. Remember that this is still a guess, so the edges are probably wrong, but the core is probably right... Does that make sense?
    E.g. I find it unlikely that Villain has QQ,AKs but not AQ in his range here. I could be wrong, though... how this Villain 3-bets is unknown to me. I'd be shocked if 22-88 and the weak broadway hands were not in villain's range. It wouldn't be surprising at all to find out that Villain doesn't play A9o, but does play all AX suited.

    OK, so let's think about the flop:
    Villain's flop fold-to-C-bet stat is 40%. Just as a raw statistic, if you played 100% PRE, about 50% of the time, you'd have a pair or better OTF. For all the hands that don't start as a PP, the odds are about 33%.

    SO, if Villain continues with any pair, their fold to C-bet would be between 50% and 67%, which is what we find here. Villain folds to C-bets 40%, so Villain continues to C-bets 60%. This means that Villain is unlikely to fold middle pair (maybe even bottom pair) and some %-age of draws, too.

    If we can assume that Villain raises some %-age of hands when facing a C-bet, then we can confine Villain's range to call a C-bet even further. Do you think Villain does this?

    If so, what % of the time do you think Villain raises a C-bet, and what portion of Villains range (the one you gave in the prior post) would do that on this flop?

    Taking this into account. What is Villains range when he calls the C-bet OTF?
    Quote Originally Posted by Zorkion View Post
    Honestly, the amount of help you guys are willing to give is one of the most motivating things about this game. What MMM is talking about makes sense, I've done some of this work in the past, but its been a while. Also, I'll be sure to give equilab a shot.

    Alright, so here's what i think opp is calling the flop bet with: TT-88,66,AJs,A9s-A6s,KJs+,K9s-K8s,QJs,Q9s,J9s,97s+,86s+,75s,65s,54s,87o. I think opp is raising his 2 pair hands, overpairs, and non-flushing straights, flatting with sets, and generally calling with medium strength hands that have some draws.

    Thanks again for the help, you guys. It's much appreciated
    have you seen him flat w/ sets in past?
    "We're all just a million little gods causing rainstorms, turning every good thing to rust...."AF
  22. #22
    You cannot look at the 40% fold to cbet statistic and take it as gospel like here. It's an aggregate of all his flop play, on every kind of flop and after every kind of preflop play and position. It's more productive to make a general remark about his playstyle from it and then do standard line-reading. Dustin Schmidt (leatherass) makes a big point in one of his videos about this sort of "going crazy over stats" tendency which is one end of a spectrum and ideally you want to be in the middle between using intuition and using hard math.
  23. #23
    MadMojoMonkey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jackvance View Post
    You cannot look at the 40% fold to cbet statistic and take it as gospel like here. It's an aggregate of all his flop play, on every kind of flop and after every kind of preflop play and position. It's more productive to make a general remark about his playstyle from it and then do standard line-reading.
    What part of which post are you criticizing?

    I thought this:
    Quote Originally Posted by MadMojoMonkey View Post
    Villain folds to C-bets 40%, so Villain continues to C-bets 60%. This means that Villain is unlikely to fold middle pair (maybe even bottom pair) and some %-age of draws, too.
    but there's nothing "gospel" in that... I used the words "unlikely" and "maybe".


    @Zorkion: Keep answering the questions in this thread, we'll get to your play OTT quite soon.
  24. #24
    Ive only seen him hit a set on the flop twice, and both times he called a flop bet in position, and then raised a turn bet
    Last edited by Zorkion; 08-29-2013 at 07:47 PM.
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  25. #25
    MadMojoMonkey's Avatar
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    Here's my guess for Villain's range to continue after your bet OTF, based on your range for Villain to see the flop (post #15; 248 combos).
    { QQ-88,66,AKs,ATs,KTs,QTs,JTs,T8s+,97s+,87s,75s+,54s,K hQh,AhJh,KhJh,QhJh,Ah9h,Kh9h,Qh9h,Jh9h,Ah8h,Kh8h,A s7s,Ah6h,8h6h,6h5h,ATo,KTo,QTo,JTo,T9o,98o,87o } 132 combos

    I do feel there are some questionable hands in there, but enough questionable stuff to make up for spaz hands, I hope.


    Here's the same range, taking into account your read that Villain raises overpair, 2-pair and non-flushing straight hands.
    { TT-88,66,AKs,ATs,KTs,QTs,JTs,T8s+,97s,87s,75s,54s,KhQ h,AhJh,KhJh,QhJh,Ah9h,Kh9h,Qh9h,Jh9h,Ah8h,Kh8h,9h8 h,As7s,Ah6h,8h6h,6h5h,ATo,KTo,QTo,JTo,T9o,87o } 107 combos


    What is your range to see the flop?

    Given your range, what portion of that range to you want to be betting on this flop for value?
    (hint: for a bet to be a "pure" value bet, your hand must have at least 50% equity against Villain's calling range.)
  26. #26
    alright, my range to see the flop is something like:77+,AJs+,AJo+, with the occasional lower pp or a sc thrown in once in a while for balance. I'll neglect those for now.

    For a pure value bet, my range on this flop is going to be: TT+,77-66,AhKh,AhQh,AhJh
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  27. #27
    MadMojoMonkey's Avatar
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    OK, so if we completely ignore your bluffing range for a bit...

    Do the same analysis on Villain's range OTT. What hands do you think Villain folds to a bet, with what does Villain call, and with what does Villain raise?

    Take it a step further and ask yourself... if I check... what hands will Villain bet. If I c/r, how does that affect Villain's range?

    Which one seems* like you'll get more value? Don't forget to take into account that you may check and Villain will NOT bet, meaning a lot less money goes into the pot.

    *I've intentionally avoided all the math, and I will do so for this entire post. You getting a feel for ranges is enough for now.


    Now come up with a plan of attack against that range, using your own range to get to the turn in this hand.

    What do you think is your best play against this Villain here?
  28. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by MadMojoMonkey View Post
    OK, so if we completely ignore your bluffing range for a bit...

    Do the same analysis on Villain's range OTT. What hands do you think Villain folds to a bet, with what does Villain call, and with what does Villain raise?

    Take it a step further and ask yourself... if I check... what hands will Villain bet. If I c/r, how does that affect Villain's range?

    Which one seems* like you'll get more value? Don't forget to take into account that you may check and Villain will NOT bet, meaning a lot less money goes into the pot.

    *I've intentionally avoided all the math, and I will do so for this entire post. You getting a feel for ranges is enough for now.


    Now come up with a plan of attack against that range, using your own range to get to the turn in this hand.

    What do you think is your best play against this Villain here?
    man this took too long to figure out...anyways, heres what i came up with:

    i check, villain bets: TT-88,66,KTs,QTs,JTs,T8s+,54s,KhQh,AhJh,KhJh,QhJh,Ah9 h,Kh9h,Qh9h,Jh9h,Ah8h,Kh8h,9h8h,8h6h,ATo,KTo,QTo,J To,T9o

    i bet, villain folds: 99,54s,As7s,8h6h,6h5h,T9o,87o
    i bet, villain calls: 88,AKs,ATs,KTs,QTs,JTs,T8s+,97s,87s,75s,KhQ h,AhJh,KhJh,QhJh,Ah9h,Kh9h,Qh9h,Jh9h,Ah8h,Kh8h,9h8 h,Ah6h,ATo,KTo,QTo,JTo
    i bet, villain raises: TT,66,JTs,AhJh,KhJh,QhJh,JTo

    So it seems that by betting the turn, im folding out some of the weaker end of his range that might have otherwise bluffed/semibluffed the turn. So it would be best to c/r the turn to build the pot. Any thoughts on sizing?
    http://zorkion.blogspot.com/
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  29. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by Zorkion View Post
    man this took too long to figure out...anyways, heres what i came up with:
    after you do hand after hand after hand you'll start to get fast @ assigning ranges to villains, and yourself too. Last fall I had no internet access at my house for like 3 months. So I would save hands posted in the forum on a thumb drive. I then made word Doc''s with literally hundreds of hands that I would dissect. I never looked at the responses to the original post until after I reviewed it. I think back about it, and realize it's probably one of the most important things I've done poker-wise, and honestly I mainly did it because I was bored an couldn't play at my house. goes to show ya how crucial work away from the table is.
    "We're all just a million little gods causing rainstorms, turning every good thing to rust...."AF
  30. #30
    MadMojoMonkey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zorkion View Post
    So it would be best to c/r the turn to build the pot.
    Solid analysis. I'm not going to judge your ranges. It's enough that you made them and are responding to them. Congratulations on getting through it. Many posters would have given up on this thread by now, but you stuck with it. Keep up this diligence and you'll be improving at a rapid rate.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zorkion View Post
    Any thoughts on sizing?
    Your sizing affects Villain's ranges, obv. For now, use whatever sizing you assumed when you put ranges on the Villain.

    The optimal exploitative sizing would be the largest size bet you can make that doesn't cause Villain to get tighter with his calls. Well, sometimes that's not true, either. If Villain over-adjusts to your larger sizing, you can actually gain enough fold equity to make up for the smaller pot. However, this is beyond your reach right now. You have to be much faster at putting Villains on a range, before you can dissect that range 10 different ways and quickly calculate how much equity you have with each sizing.

    Besides, optimal exploitative tactics are not always the best move.


    OK, I think I'm done with this hand, unless you have any questions, Zorkion. I've tiptoed you through the process of putting villains on ranges on each street. Yes, it is tedious guesswork, especially at first. Keep posting hands and guessing at ranges in your posts and you'll get great feedback and practice. It'll become 2nd nature to you eventually.

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