New player - 2NL all in preflop with pocket pair(s)

[VoktorBlim]

Hello,

this is my first post on a poker forum. I have just started playing poker NLHE about 5 weeks ago - deposited $50 on Party Poker and am currently playing the micro stakes in order to gain experience. I don't really expect to make money at this level as a) I don't know what i'm doing yet and b) the rake.

Currently i'm playing to get to the level where I can calculate pot odds whilst playing, start to get a feel for reading the flop texture and seeing if I can correctly see what nut hands are possible, trying to work out what worse hands will call me if I raise etc... I also want to see how well I can take bad beats, coolers etc... to see if it affects my play.

My question here is one of a risk\ruin nature. I was playing last night 6max 2NL and a player joined the table short stacked (90c) - within about 10 hands he had already gone all-in pre flop about 6 times. He wasn't hiding his cards, so we could see he was playing any two cards (1 picture card offsuit with a low rag). Everybody was folding to him and he was stealing any dead money that was in the pot.

I took him on twice - first with pocket 8s than a bit later with pocket 6s and lost both times. Both I consider to be bad beats (I even hit a set on the flop with my 6s) - afterwards I ran the hands through HM2 and on the turn I was 85% and 97% fav to win respectively, but come the river I lost both times.

Was I right to get involved in these hands? Would it have been better just to swap tables and avoid the possibility of getting busted out twice? Were low pocket pairs just not good enough in this scenario (he won by pairing up jacks on the first hand and getting trip aces on the second)?

Thanks.

[TNreg]

It's high variance for sure but question is can your psyche handle playing for stacks vs what is likely a 55/45ish equity difference over the short term.

[VoktorBlim]

It's high variance for sure but question is can your psyche handle playing for stacks vs what is likely a 55/45ish equity difference over the short term.

At 2NL it's no problem - but I couldn't do it at higher stakes. Looking at my play I think it was rash to go all in with low-ish pocket pairs - after all he only has to pair up one higher card and i'm beat.

I want to get a good solid foundation to my game, so I guess it's better to avoid these situations.

[MadMojoMonkey]

Your head's in the right place. Keep treating the game like a constant homework assignment and you'll keep improving.

These were unfortunate beats. They happen. When you have 85% equity, that means 15% of the time you will lose. That's just how it works. Of course, when you have 97% (only 1 card in the deck will hurt you), and you lose, it does sting a bit. You can console yourself the next time you catch a 1-outer to win. That happens, too.

[jackvance]

Don't calculate your equity on the turn when the money goes in preflop. That's an exercise in futility which will only frustrate you. Calculate preflop equity because that's what matters. It sounds like you lost a flip and a 70-30. It sucks, but these are not bad beats.

If he shoves any pocket pair, ace, king queen and suited jack and ten (60% of all possible hands), and you call with any pocket pair, any ace and KQ (21% of all hands), you're still only a 59-41 favorite to win the pot.

Equity
MP2 40.80% { 22+, A2s+, K2s+, Q2s+, J2s+, T5s+, A2o+, K2o+, Q2o+, J7o+, T7o+, 97o+, 87o, 76o }
MP3 59.20% { 22+, A2s+, KQs, A2o+, KQo }

[VoktorBlim]

Don't calculate your equity on the turn when the money goes in preflop. That's an exercise in futility which will only frustrate you. Calculate preflop equity because that's what matters. It sounds like you lost a flip and a 70-30. It sucks, but these are not bad beats.

If he shoves any pocket pair, ace, king queen and suited jack and ten (60% of all possible hands), and you call with any pocket pair, any ace and KQ (21% of all hands), you're still only a 59-41 favorite to win the pot.

Equity
MP2 40.80% { 22+, A2s+, K2s+, Q2s+, J2s+, T5s+, A2o+, K2o+, Q2o+, J7o+, T7o+, 97o+, 87o, 76o }
MP3 59.20% { 22+, A2s+, KQs, A2o+, KQo }

Yes - I see that you are right. It's when the money goes in where it counts.
Could you please explain how I am to interpret the equity illustration above - are these all the possible hand combos that could beat me if they pair up? Thanks.

[jackvance]

Yup. It's when you put all of the hands in the top against all of the hands in the bottom and then average out your equity (chance to win). Download equilab (google it) and you can play around with this and get a better feel for equity.

[sevenandnine]

I also battled like this.I eventually stopped the all in calling ,try it for a while,After all its not the last time you will get AA etc,When your bankroll gets larger expand on the play with larger calls.

Poker aint about making the doe all one go but over a period off time.

[eugmac]

I also battled like this.I eventually stopped the all in calling ,try it for a while,After all its not the last time you will get AA etc,When your bankroll gets larger expand on the play with larger calls.

Poker aint about making the doe all one go but over a period off time.

Is this post intended to imply that you should try folding AA preflop when facing an all-in?

[sevenandnine]

Is this post intended to imply that you should try folding AA preflop when facing an all-in?

No that would be impossible ,BUT i have considering i got bad beat on them so many times.They are only good pre -flop.This is on the micro games Somebody more professional would use position too maximize the pot ,too try and get the most value out off them.

Look how many times a 5 6 HAS BEEN USED AGAINST AA AND won.

[jackvance]

About 22.5% of the time.

[sevenandnine]

About 22.5% of the time.

ON A 9 CASH RING .AA is 30% before any bets placed,Thats according to Equilab.That is even without putting anyone with a lonely A 10

Of course nobody is going too fold AA,But look at it this way if you are playing against regular players .You fold the AA ,unfortunately the next A lands on flop,You might presume you have lost?

But if you watch the play ,someone will start a semi.bluff ,and that will be re.raised .You will have gained because you now know what the other players are likely too do,Especially if you get too see the cards.

I sometimes do the no all in when low on chips but know i can make more on semi-bluffs ,So iff the all in is goin to cost you all the chips ,fold?????

[kickass]

What the fuck is ooccurring here. Im really feeling bad for the guy that started this thread, I hope he didnt want any propper advise.

[kickass]

I dont think calling a guy thats shoving every hand with 88 is anything but superr standard particularly if you are closing the action. 66 is obv more of a flip but is still prolly +ev. Please dont fold AA preflop ever.

[jackvance]

You're not gonna be playing most hands against the whole table. If you usually are, you need to raise bigger preflop. If you are scared of losing with the absolute best hand in poker that strongly dominates every other conceivable hand (except the other AA), you're playing too much scared money and you still have a way to go in your poker skill development.

[TNreg]

This is trolling at its finest.

[jackvance]

Intentional or not though? I can't tell. I know people that think like this sometimes, usually after losing with AA.

[sevenandnine]

What the fuck is ooccurring here. Im really feeling bad for the guy that started this thread, I hope he didnt want any propper advise.

WOW yea you are quite right,we have given him shit advice and off topic.
But its also the fundamental theory off poker ,fold the hand ,it cost you big time.but you gained advantage by seeing the play.
my folding AA was a good fold because the all in was by a dumb fuck on 22 he got 4 off them.
Another bad beat was AK vs A2 .
i was cut off he was UG
AA LANDED FLOP,

i thought id drag money into the pot so i called him all the way too the river
river landed 2

I played incorrectly by not shutting off with a big shove,but i doubt very much he would have folded anyway.

YEA DONT FOLD AA

[WeldPhaser]

ok, ok, ok. yeah this thread has gotten away from it's intentions I believe.

JackV told you well: Download equilab asap. it's an absolutely awesome tool.

This situation reminds of when I started back up playing on lock when it was still merge, I even remember the villains name (kumquat).. ha!!

The guy was a total maniac, and he would manage to bully over the table for a bit, i took him on and he got the best of me for about 4bi's. Unfortunately for kumquat he stuck around long enough for me to turn the tides.

TN also gave good advice too regarding variance. If losing your stack from a beat to guys like this tilts you then you may want to only shove ATs+,AJo+,KQ, 88+ or something to the like vs. these guys.

Lastly, was this guy on your left??

POst a couple of the hands bro, and don't be results orientated. it hinders the learning process,

[VoktorBlim]

many thanks for the replies guys.

I understand in a way the argument made by sevenandnine - I guess he's saying that sometimes it's better to avoid the all-in pre flop scenario as it takes away any possible skilled plays left in the hand - it's just all up to the luck of the cards. i.e. let's say I (complete newbie) had to play against Phil Ivey, I might as well just keep shoving all-in preflop and hope to get lucky. He'd have to call it or fold and it would just be up to the cards who lost their chips first....

I figure that as long as whenever I go all-in heads up I have at least a +50% chance of winning I'll be making money in the long run. So I won't be laying down AA pre-flop anytime soon....

[VoktorBlim]

Lastly, was this guy on your left??

POst a couple of the hands bro, and don't be results orientated. it hinders the learning process,

He acted after me....(on my left?)
Will be posting hands from now on in!

[WeldPhaser]

He acted after me....(on my left?)
Will be posting hands from now on in!

If a villain is on ur left he has POS on you almost all the time except of course when he's in the sb, so it's not usually the best idea to have one of these goombas on your left