11-21-2019 05:31 PM
#8176
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11-21-2019 05:44 PM
#8177
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11-21-2019 05:45 PM
#8178
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11-21-2019 10:50 PM
#8179
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Hey Ong, thanks for pointing me to Switzerland's direct democracy. It appears that it's the only country that has anywhere near that level of direct democracy, yet it is still a hybrid system with elected representatives as well as referendums. It's definitely interesting to read about, and it makes me wonder why they stand alone. But they stand alone is a lot of other ways as well, not all of which are prescriptive for other countries, i.e. their country is a natural fortress, but Poland, a giant flat plain, wouldn't be wise to take a lesson from the Swiss on declarations of neutrality. | |
11-22-2019 05:26 AM
#8180
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Switzerland is indeed an interesting country. The "natural fortress" thing is something they share with us... mountains make great defences, so does sea. We're a lot bigger though, and of course we're far from neutral. I'd like us to go their way, obviously that's not ever going to happen. | |
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11-22-2019 10:58 AM
#8181
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Whilst this is obviously put terribly as it seems to be part of some sort of personal beef, this is absolutely the key point. The referendum should not have been run because the question asked was not appropriate to be decided by the wider public who, by and large, have (or rather had at the time) extremely limited knowledge of the pros and cons of EU membership. It was, simply, a mechanism used by David Cameron and his party to retain power in 2015. |
11-22-2019 02:36 PM
#8182
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You can call it whatever you want, but you're just making up value loaded terms to suit your purposes. Direct democracy is a form of democracy, one which has short comings. You're happy to use the Swiss as an example for how great direct democracy is, yet you haven't stopped to ask why they don't actually have a direct democracy, but instead have a hybrid. So do they have it wrong as well? | |
11-25-2019 08:15 AM
#8183
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I'm not making up terms to suit my purpose, more making up terms through ignorance of what the correct term is. But I feel I have to point out that, while I cite Switzerland as an example of both a nation with more democracy than the UK, and a successful European nation outside of the EU, I'm no expert in Swiss affairs. I don't know why they don't use direct democracy for all matters, but I am aware they have lots of referendums. Switzerland works, their standard of living is higher than ours. | |
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11-25-2019 09:45 AM
#8184
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What makes it a little difficult is that while you acknowledge you aren't an expert, you tend to use expert language. | |
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11-25-2019 10:07 AM
#8185
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11-25-2019 10:11 AM
#8186
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11-25-2019 10:15 AM
#8187
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11-25-2019 10:19 AM
#8188
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11-25-2019 10:21 AM
#8189
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11-25-2019 11:55 AM
#8190
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"Strong convictions loosely held" is an interesting position to support. I see pros and cons. I need to think on it a while. | |
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11-25-2019 12:13 PM
#8191
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11-25-2019 01:30 PM
#8192
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It's not just whether you trust them to do what's best for the country, it's whether you trust them more than the collective will of the citizens in a direct democracy to do what's best for the country. At least the former group usually has a solid idea of the consequences of their choices; the latter often does not. | |
11-25-2019 01:39 PM
#8193
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I trust the collective will of the people to be as close to sincere as possible. I didn't vote to leave the EU because it suited me, rather because I felt it was in the country's best interests. Doesn't matter if I'm wrong or right, the sincerity is what matters. | |
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11-25-2019 01:43 PM
#8194
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11-25-2019 01:46 PM
#8195
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Learning from mistakes is a crucial aspect of becoming smarter. Not sure why that's facepalm worthy. | |
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11-25-2019 01:47 PM
#8196
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How many people got burned before we learned how to control fire? Should we have left fire alone? | |
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11-25-2019 02:20 PM
#8197
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I sincerely want to eat chocolate cake three times a day for the rest of my life. And after I get diabetes, I hope I'll know better in my next life. But at least I got to be stupid in this one. | |
11-25-2019 02:35 PM
#8198
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Yeah nice analogy. Thanks for supporting my point. I mean, society has already learned that eating like shit increases the risk of diabetes, which means people are better informed. Just because some fat fuck is dead, doesn't mean society cannot learn from that mistake. | |
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11-25-2019 03:24 PM
#8199
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I think in the analogy, society is the fat fuck. | |
11-25-2019 03:35 PM
#8200
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Thank you. Ong seems more interested in ad bananuming me than trying to see what my argument actually is. | |
11-25-2019 03:49 PM
#8201
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This highlights another problem with the referendum. If you can't make the question sophisticated enough to capture what could actually happen because most of the population isn't informed enough to understand the nuances, don't ask the fucking question! | |
11-25-2019 04:14 PM
#8202
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A person can learn. "The people" can't. | |
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11-25-2019 04:29 PM
#8203
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Be careful with societal knowledge, though. It's not like personal knowledge. Not everyone in the society knows all the pertinent societal lessons that they may need to keep safe. I.e. not everyone in the world knows about diabetes, despite most people knowing such. | |
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11-25-2019 04:29 PM
#8204
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Yeah, I mean I think you've made some good points here Poop, but even still it's a poor referendum. The problem is status quo will always be one option, while the nuance of action will split the action vote. | |
11-25-2019 05:43 PM
#8205
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11-25-2019 05:44 PM
#8206
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11-25-2019 05:44 PM
#8207
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11-25-2019 05:59 PM
#8208
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11-25-2019 06:01 PM
#8209
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11-25-2019 06:04 PM
#8210
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But in the real referendum, the choice was made as binary between some vague version of leaving which could happen under any number of circumstances and with varying degrees of pain, and the status quo. Not sure that's any better. | |
11-25-2019 06:06 PM
#8211
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11-25-2019 06:09 PM
#8212
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11-25-2019 06:10 PM
#8213
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11-25-2019 06:10 PM
#8214
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11-25-2019 06:13 PM
#8215
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11-25-2019 06:13 PM
#8216
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Yeah, great insight there Ong. Power corrupts people. Gee, never heard that one before. | |
11-25-2019 06:14 PM
#8217
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11-25-2019 06:15 PM
#8218
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11-25-2019 06:19 PM
#8219
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11-25-2019 06:20 PM
#8220
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11-25-2019 06:22 PM
#8221
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11-25-2019 06:30 PM
#8222
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11-25-2019 06:31 PM
#8223
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11-25-2019 06:33 PM
#8224
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11-25-2019 07:12 PM
#8225
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This idea of a "deal" didn't emerge until after the referendum. | |
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11-26-2019 02:42 AM
#8226
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The EU doesn't prohibit trade with non-EU countries. Looks like currently 55% of UK's exports go to non-EU countries. | |
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11-26-2019 02:43 AM
#8227
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I'd much rather have an AI government than direct democracy. Half of the people are dumber than average. | |
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11-26-2019 03:37 AM
#8228
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11-26-2019 03:38 AM
#8229
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11-26-2019 09:54 AM
#8230
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11-26-2019 11:18 AM
#8231
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11-26-2019 12:40 PM
#8232
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11-26-2019 01:35 PM
#8233
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11-26-2019 02:08 PM
#8234
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I think the idea with direct democracy is that the non-loons vastly outnumber the loons to the point of rendering them close to negligible. Depends on your definition of "loon" though. I mean, if you're casting a wide net, and defining it as "people who disagree with me", then I can see the problem you have. | |
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11-26-2019 02:13 PM
#8235
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11-26-2019 02:58 PM
#8236
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I agree, and my hypothetical about hairdressers and telephone sanitizers is silly, but gets at a deeper point. | |
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11-26-2019 04:18 PM
#8237
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I find your faith in humanity adorable. Curiously you trust humans, just not politicians, who are basically those of us that we collectively decided are the best ones for the job. If we can't even pick non-loons in the government, how could we be expected to decide other matters? | |
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11-26-2019 06:42 PM
#8238
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11-26-2019 07:08 PM
#8239
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12-05-2019 12:10 PM
#8240
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So... the House is almost certainly going to impeach Trump. | |
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12-05-2019 02:57 PM
#8241
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Yup, think that's probably right Mojo. | |
12-05-2019 04:08 PM
#8242
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The only thing surprising about that video was Boris's hair looked roughly the way a normal person's hair normally looks. | |
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12-05-2019 05:50 PM
#8243
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Boris has tidied up his hairdo lately. I think he's been watching Scott Adams' thing about anchoring, where you start out looking ridiculous and then try to look less ridiculous so you'll look awesome by comparison to your old self. | |
12-07-2019 04:04 PM
#8244
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Peter Bootiecheech be like: This is me. This is how I walk. | |
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12-07-2019 04:07 PM
#8245
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12-07-2019 04:10 PM
#8246
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12-09-2019 04:27 PM
#8247
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Remember when Trump was talking about getting the Nobel Prize for his "talks" with N. Korea? | |
12-09-2019 05:56 PM
#8248
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Meanwhile in the UK, Captain Retard Jr. is doing his best to lose the election. | |
12-10-2019 06:09 AM
#8249
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https://twitter.com/Holbornlolz/stat...533298688?s=20 | |
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12-10-2019 06:51 AM
#8250
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Yeah it wouldn't surprise me if it was exaggerated, that's not why I posted the video of Boris being a douche though. | |