How to make other people pay for your stuff

[Poopadoop]

My point is that it is the common use of the world which is openly contradictory.

If you apply it to some scenario like not telling your gf she's put on a few pounds because it will turn her into a spiralling tormenting machine against you is 'selfish' instead of 'selfless', I'd agree with that on some level. But ...

Addressing poop's example: I don't want to live in a world where someone would see me in peril and ignore that if they had a chance to help me. Therefore I will take certain risks to help people whom are in peril because that's the vision I have for the world I want to create with my choices.

The gain to you here is so unlikely to be realized (most of us live an entire lifetime without needing anyone else to risk their lives on our behalf, never mind the person whose life we saved before) compared to the risk (drowning to save some idiot you don't even know who probably should've learned to swim before they went on a lake), that overall risking your life just isn't worth it in any 'selfish' way. I guess you could add the positive of being a hero but that's a pretty short-lasting thing really, and won't help you if you die in the attempt. It's probably going to get your name in the paper and not much else in the long run.

It's also a bit unrealistic to think that your own behavior has such a great influence on society as a whole that it's going to get your life saved in return whereas if you'd just let the stranger drown and then found yourself needing help ten years later, the person coming to your rescue would go 'wait a minute, i remember some time ago a person not bothering in this situation. I was going to save them, but nah, fuck it let them drown.'

Do you do things that are good for me?
No.
How wrong you are to be selfish! If you were a better person, you'd act for my benefit, instead of your own.

That's not really a reasonable expectation though is it? How is he supposed to help you, and moreover, why help you over someone else he might already be helping? Is he even aware that you need help if you haven't asked for it? And if so, is he in a position to help? What should he be doing, sending you money over the internet?

I think in a more reasonable case people are pretty willing to put in an effort for the benefit of someone else. For example, if someone asks you how fluid dynamics works and you answer, why are you doing that? What are you gaining and why not just go 'fuck off and read a book I got tin cans to explode' or whatever?

That's not my usage of the word, that's the common usage and you keep ignoring this point.

We're not ignoring it, we're pointing out it's kind of a prop that you're using to change the nature of the argument (presumably unconsciously) into one about the normal vs. MMM definition of a word. This is where you are kind of doing a reductio ad bananum.

The common usage is a fucked up language of guilt and manipulation. Just because we now have the phrase "virtue signalling" to attach to the sentiments of guilt and manipulation doesn't mean that it was any less used to virtue signal before that phrase was popular.

It might help to give an example of what you mean by 'virtue signalling' here. Do you mean if I help an old lady across the street I'm really being selfish because I want to virtue signal that I'm a nice person? I think of virtue signalling as more in line with hypocrisy, where a person says one thing but acts in the opposite way. If I'm actually being nice and sacrificing my time for someone else's benefit, it's a bit cynical to view that as 'selfish' imo.

[Savy]

If I'm actually being nice and sacrificing my time for someone else's benefit, it's a bit cynical to view that as 'selfish' imo.

Why do you do it?

Everything everyone does is 100% selfish.

[Poopadoop]

Why do you do it?

Because it's a good use of my time.

Everything everyone does is 100% selfish.

If you went with 'a lot of what people do that seems selfless could be argued to have a selfish motive' I'd go along with that.

Everything and everyone and 100% is just silly.

[MadMojoMonkey]

The gain to you here is so unlikely to be realized.

No. The gain I get is immediately realized, because the gain is my sense of being a "good" person who "does the right thing." My reasons for wanting to be good or do the right thing don't need to be remotely rational. I offered a case in which those arguments were rational-ish, but you showed how they're not. That's fine. What matters is that I chose to do it for my own reasons, not that those reasons were factually accurate.

It's also a bit unrealistic to think that your own behavior has such a great influence on society as a whole [...]

*shrug* Yes and no. IDK what affect I have on the greater society as a whole, but ... butterfly affect ... I constantly interact with society as a part of it... I feel like this could be a whole other conversation.

It's not relevant, though.
It is not relevant whether or not what I'm thinking has any correlation to reality, only that my choices are rooted in what I want.

That's not really a reasonable expectation though is it? How is he supposed to help you, and moreover, why help you over someone else he might already be helping? Is he even aware that you need help if you haven't asked for it? And if so, is he in a position to help? What should he be doing, sending you money over the internet?

It's your argument, and I agree it's not reasonable.
He's supposed to help me by not thinking about what is in his own best interests, the selfish prick.
If he wasn't being so damn selfish by ignoring me, then he'd be well aware.
I bet he knows people who can help. So long as they're not selfish pricks, too, I'll be saved!
That's not a bad start, but right now, I just need someone to wipe my ass. It's getting itchy, you selfish pricks. Don't you see I'm uncomfortable, here?

For example, if someone asks you how fluid dynamics works and you answer, why are you doing that?

You're joking, right?
Give me an excuse to talk about physics.
I dare you.
I'll bump that physics monkey thread faster than you can meme, punk.
Get me started.
Just get me started!
No, scratch that. I'm already thinking about how awesome non-Newtonian fluids are and how shampoo and liquid hand soap are specifically formulated to be runny when you squeeze them out, but then firmer when on your hand, so they don't run onto the floor. Ever seen foaming soap in a public restroom? That's why it's foamy. So they don't have to clean up as much mess from the soap that slides right off your hand.

...
and you think I'm not smiling from ear to ear right now, and that's not a very selfish joy?
I thought you were, like, a people-knower science guy or something?

We're not ignoring it, we're pointing out it's kind of a prop that you're using to change the nature of the argument (presumably unconsciously) into one about the normal vs. MMM definition of a word.

I'm really not, though. I'm pointing out that what you say it means can't be what it means, because it makes no sense whatsoever. It's a perfectly absurd proposition. I'm not trying to change the definition, really. That's futile. I'm saying the current definition is nonsense.

I'm saying that being selfish is inseparable from being a self.
I'm saying that calling someone whom does something you don't like selfish is completely missing the point of whatever you don't like, 'cause all the other people who do things you do like are also being selfish.

It's not a prop I'm injecting. It's the manipulative nature of the accusation coupled with the hypocrisy of it all inherent to the usage that I'm shining a light on.

It might help to give an example of what you mean by 'virtue signalling' here. Do you mean if I help an old lady across the street I'm really being selfish because I want to virtue signal that I'm a nice person? I think of virtue signalling as more in line with hypocrisy, where a person says one thing but acts in the opposite way.

I mean if you call someone selfish, you're virtue signalling that you're better than them because they are selfish and you, presumably, are not. Manipulation and hypocrisy.

If I'm actually being nice and sacrificing my time for someone else's benefit, it's a bit cynical to view that as 'selfish' imo.

So... you want to pretend you do things for other reasons because it makes you feel better about the things you do...?
and that's... not... selfish?
and I'm the one injecting some prop into the conversation?