Family calls shooting of car thief ‘senseless’

[Lukie]

So many judgement calls involved in what you just said. Maybe you can make all them decisions well. Do you really believe the general public can? In fact when the majority of crimes like this happen in places where people are less well off and less educated and less intelligent a lot of the time, do you think the bottom 30% of society has the abillity to make all them judgement calls?

If we want to go back to your woman example, the safest thing she could possibly do in that situation if she has the ability to is run and/or hide. There shouldn't be any materialistic object that she owns that should be more important than her life, or even the people robbing hers life. The one exception which comes to mind is obviously small children, which changes things.

Run and hide lol... come on man. You are 3 days late with that.

And again it's not about materialistic objects. If somebody breaks into your home and is unfazed by the fact that somebody is actually there, it's not about your 'things' anymore, it's about you.

We're just going to have to chalk this up to an American vs Euro thing.

[Savy]

Run and hide lol... come on man. You are 3 days late with that.

And again it's not about materialistic objects. If somebody breaks into your home and is unfazed by the fact that somebody is actually there, it's not about your 'things' anymore, it's about you.

We're just going to have to chalk this up to an American vs Euro thing.

I never said it was always a viable option, but genuinely the safest thing you can do if there is an intruder in your house is get out of your house.

[kiwiMark]

And again it's not about materialistic objects. If somebody breaks into your home and is unfazed by the fact that somebody is actually there, it's not about your 'things' anymore, it's about you.

We're just going to have to chalk this up to an American vs Euro thing.

Maybe I'm offbase here, but it's starting to seem like the 'American' argument is: "In the worst situations, it will be a positive to have a gun"

and the 'Euro' argument is "In bad situations that aren't these worst situations, having a gun is going to be a negative not a positive"

ie. not really an argument that's coming head-to-head


edit: looks like JKDS might've beaten me while I was typering

[Lukie]

Maybe I'm offbase here, but it's starting to seem like the 'American' argument is: "In the worst situations, it will be a positive to have a gun"

and the 'Euro' argument is "In bad situations that aren't these worst situations, having a gun is going to be a negative not a positive"

ie. not really an argument that's coming head-to-head


edit: looks like JKDS might've beaten me while I was typering

That is a reasonable viewpoint. There are a lot of people out there who shouldn't own a gun. For example those who are hotheaded, chronic drunks, or who otherwise might make extremely poor decisions in stressful situations probably would be better off keeping their cell phone charged and hoping for the best.

In a legitimate life or death situation though I can't imagine that having a gun would actually be a liability more than an asset. I would be curious to see some statistics or related stories to back up that point. I'm open to that possiblity but it would be very counterintuitive. There are countless stories out there of home defense with a firearm, as would be expected in a country of ~300 million people with a generally pro gun mentality.

[Savy]

In a legitimate life or death situation though I can't imagine that having a gun would actually be a liability more than an asset.

What do you mean by a life or death situation?

If someone is setting out to kill you, then yes a gun is obviously a good thing to own. Having a gun turns situations that aren't life or death into life or death situations though. For example, burglaries.

The stats and stuff are all available online, I'll let you search for them yourself.

[Lukie]

What do you mean by a life or death situation?

If someone is setting out to kill you, then yes a gun is obviously a good thing to own. Having a gun turns situations that aren't life or death into life or death situations though. For example, burglaries.

The stats and stuff are all available online, I'll let you search for them yourself.

The point is that if you are home, you don't really know if it is a burglary or a home invasion. It's easy to classify them after the fact but with what you are suggesting, all of the risk is on the innocent home owner.

I would rather see 10 burglars get shot and killed than see 1 innocent woman be raped and killed. Of course I would rather see NONE of these things happen, but it is the home invader that is pressing the action. If there is a deterrent effect even better (and there is.)

As it is we are almost certain to disagree on this and that is fine with me too.

[kiwiMark]

I would rather see 10 burglars get shot and killed than see 1 innocent woman be raped and killed. Of course I would rather see NONE of these things happen, but it is the home invader that is pressing the action. If there is a deterrent effect even better (and there is.)

As it is we are almost certain to disagree on this and that is fine with me too.

I guess a question would be how many innocent women are you willing to see shot and killed defending their TV under the mistaken belief they're defending their life and vagina, in order that the one woman who was legitimately about to get raped and killed kills her assailant?

[Lukie]

I guess a question would be how many innocent women are you willing to see shot and killed defending their TV under the mistaken belief they're defending their life and vagina, in order that the one woman who was legitimately about to get raped and killed kills her assailant?

It's not just rape. It's all types of violent/injurious crime and forcible felonies. To answer your question I don't know. And like the buttons questions, it's interesting and worth debating for us game theory nerds, but I'm not sure how practical the discussion is.

[Savy]

The point is that if you are home, you don't really know if it is a burglary or a home invasion. It's easy to classify them after the fact but with what you are suggesting, all of the risk is on the innocent home owner.

I would rather see 10 burglars get shot and killed than see 1 innocent woman be raped and killed. Of course I would rather see NONE of these things happen, but it is the home invader that is pressing the action. If there is a deterrent effect even better (and there is.)

As it is we are almost certain to disagree on this and that is fine with me too.

This post implies that all people who rob are bad people, that's not true for a start.

The actual solution lies in sorting out the social problems which leads people to do things they shouldn't do, like rob peoples houses. Guns don't deter people, very few people rob houses for shits and giggles. They do it because they need the money. All guns seem to do is escalate the majority of problems which they are supposedly meant to alleviate.

And like I have said, if someone is imposing an immediate real threat to you in your own home I have no problem using self defence, even if that does mean shooting someone.

[Lukie]

This post implies that all people who rob are bad people, that's not true for a start.

The actual solution lies in sorting out the social problems which leads people to do things they shouldn't do, like rob peoples houses. Guns don't deter people, very few people rob houses for shits and giggles. They do it because they need the money. All guns seem to do is escalate the majority of problems which they are supposedly meant to alleviate.

And like I have said, if someone is imposing an immediate real threat to you in your own home I have no problem using self defence, even if that does mean shooting someone.

Ok well when you figure out a way to sort out all the social problems out there let me know. Trust me, I would rather live in Utopia as well.

[daviddem]

Run and hide lol... come on man. You are 3 days late with that.

And again it's not about materialistic objects. If somebody breaks into your home and is unfazed by the fact that somebody is actually there, it's not about your 'things' anymore, it's about you.

We're just going to have to chalk this up to an American vs Euro thing.

No it's about common sense. If three gunmen break into my house, the last thing I want is to start a shooting because my family and I then have very little chance of survival. Besides, it's the night and we're sleeping so if it's after us they are, they'll probably be in our or the kids' room before I even have time to grab the gun.

Best defense imo if you are worried about that is to have a good alarm system linked to a security firm and a strong room with comms where you can lock yourself up while help arrives. That's exactly what companies having offices in high risk countries do. Your strong room doesn't need to be more than say a bathroom with a strong door. That and the alarm system, can't cost much more than a few assault weapons.

OK you can have a shotgun in the strong room as a last resort if you want.

[Lukie]

No it's about common sense. If three gunmen break into my house, the last thing I want is to start a shooting because my family and I then have very little chance of survival. Besides, it's the night and we're sleeping so if it's after us they are, they'll probably be in our or the kid's room before I even have time to grab the gun.

Best defense imo if you are worried about that is to have a good alarm system linked to a security firm and a strong room with comms where you can lock yourself up while help arrives. That's exactly what companies having offices in high risk countries do. Your strong room doesn't need to be more than say a bathroom with a strong door. That and the alarm system, can't cost much more than a few assault weapons.

OK you can have a shotgun in the strong room as a last resort if you want.

I typed up a response to this but seem to have lost it. It seems like we are on the same page though with the inclusion of that last sentence.

I would probably give myself a little more room than just a bathroom though, and if you are going to go through all of that trouble, some motion lights and a dog would probably be helpful too.

[spoonitnow]

No it's about common sense. If three gunmen break into my house, the last thing I want is to start a shooting because my family and I then have very little chance of survival. Besides, it's the night and we're sleeping so if it's after us they are, they'll probably be in our or the kid's room before I even have time to grab the gun.

Best defense imo if you are worried about that is to have a good alarm system linked to a security firm and a strong room with comms where you can lock yourself up while help arrives. That's exactly what companies having offices in high risk countries do. Your strong room doesn't need to be more than say a bathroom with a strong door. That and the alarm system, can't cost much more than a few assault weapons.

OK you can have a shotgun in the strong room as a last resort if you want.

I was cool with what you were saying until you used the term in the bold. It kind of gave away that you don't know shit about guns or gun laws.

[d0zer]

I was cool with what you were saying until you used the term in the bold. It kind of gave away that you don't know shit about guns or gun laws.

assault weapons are the most dangerous of all the weapons, because unlike regular weapons: assault weapons can be used to assault people.