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  1. #1
    nutsinho's Avatar
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    Default Win money, coaching from nutsinho

    It's time some of you small stakes grinders brought your game up to the next level. So we are going to discuss some concepts and play some poker. Here is the Deal: I'm going to ask FTR to define 5 concepts as they relate to short handed NLHE. Any FTR member with 100+ posts is eligible to offer ONE definition for up to THREE of the concepts in this thread. You may use words, math, hand histories w/ reads, etc. in your explanation. Also it is useful to explain why you think this concept is important at mid-high stakes. The winning responses will probably resemble an essay. The Deadline for this part is Monday Feb. 9th at noon. There will be 5 winners (one for each definition). The next part of the competition will be a battle royale in which I will play some 6 max pokers with you. We will schedule a 3-HOUR 4-TABLE session of $.50/1 NLHE on POKERSTARS for sometime later in February. The person who is up the most money after this session according to a competitor's PT or HEM will receive informal (but unlimited) coaching from me on AIM throughout March including sweats and much discussion. I am pretty much online all of the time during weekdays. This competition is targeted at people who are playing 50NL-600NL.


    Here are the concepts:
    Balance (unexploitability)
    Leveling
    Potsize Manipulation in 3bet pots ( I want to see a discussion on what bet sizing lines are best for value and for fold equity on different board textures and preflop scenarios )
    Delayed Cbetting (in both single raised and 3bet pots, value and bluff)
    Reversing the initiative in a hand (when is this appropriate and why is it valuable)
    Please submit these responses via PM
    My bankroll is the amount of money I would spend or lose before I got a job. It is calculated by adding my net worth to whatever I can borrow.
  2. #2
    Stacks's Avatar
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    Im opedipus bitch, the original balla.
    first.. and this is the shit.. I'll be back on later to give my go at this.
  3. #3
    Wow awesome. When you say 'define', do you mean 'concise science textbook style' definition or do you mean 'write everything you know about xyz in a coherent essay' style definition?
  4. #4
    mieczkowusc's Avatar
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    Aww shoot, i don't qualify. Im only at 5nl. I won't be able to participate in the session if I win, but can I still try and answer?
  5. #5
    Holy shit.....im in!
  6. #6
    nutsinho's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Irisheyes
    Wow awesome. When you say 'define', do you mean 'concise science textbook style' definition or do you mean 'write everything you know about xyz in a coherent essay' style definition?

    the latter will give u the best shot at winning
    My bankroll is the amount of money I would spend or lose before I got a job. It is calculated by adding my net worth to whatever I can borrow.
  7. #7
    Wow, thanks for your contribution Nuts. This is a real opportunity to learn even if you don't win. I'll def. be PMing you some definitions.
    Playing live . . . thanks alot Bin Laden.
  8. #8
    Via PM or here?
  9. #9
    I don't want anyone copying my homework, do you?
    Playing live . . . thanks alot Bin Laden.
  10. #10
    Holy shit.

    I will get to work.
    3k post - Return of the blog!
  11. #11
    C-betting 100% of flooops is teh moost profatbil wai to play teh poooker becas it can has no exploition. Feel free to copy that everybody!

    This is pretty fucking awesome of you Nuts, given that your hourly for coaching must be like 4 figures. And if nothing else it's a good chance for people to actually think about these things properly rather than just blindly parrot what we might read on a forum (myself included).
    There's only one system. Bet. Lose. Borrow. Steal. Lose. Take the drugs. Lose. Prison. Death.
  12. #12
    fuck me yay
    Jman: every time the action is to you, it's an opportunity for you to make the perfect play.
  13. #13
    Holy mother of god what an offer!!

    I will post later, don't know about winning, tho - whoever does will get some awesome value, that's for sure.
  14. #14
    nutsinho's Avatar
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    post in this thread yo. obv if it looks like someone has copied the central ideas of an earlier entry then they will not win. i want this thread to be worth a sticky after the week is over
    My bankroll is the amount of money I would spend or lose before I got a job. It is calculated by adding my net worth to whatever I can borrow.
  15. #15
    I think you should take PMs and post the responses after the week is over
  16. #16
    nutsinho's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bigspenda73
    I think you should take PMs and post the responses after the week is over
    fair enough. i will accept both.
    My bankroll is the amount of money I would spend or lose before I got a job. It is calculated by adding my net worth to whatever I can borrow.
  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by bigspenda73
    I think you should take PMs and post the responses after the week is over
    agree with this or just everybody wait till the last day to post.
  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by bigspenda73
    I think you should take PMs and post the responses after the week is over
    Yeah this for sure. There's only so much stuff you can talk about for some of these subjects and ideas and concepts are easily copied unintentionally so people who post late have a clear advantage.

    For example lets say I write a draft essay and someone else posts up their essay on the same subject before I'm finished and they happen to mention an important point that I've forgotten, there's no way I'm not going back and fixing my essay.
  19. #19
    nutsinho's Avatar
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    ok edited
    My bankroll is the amount of money I would spend or lose before I got a job. It is calculated by adding my net worth to whatever I can borrow.
  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by nutsinho
    Quote Originally Posted by bigspenda73
    I think you should take PMs and post the responses after the week is over
    fair enough. i will accept both.
    yes please do this, I'm not good enough at short-handed to win this but I really want to see the winning answers without having to read the same things over and over.
  21. #21

    Default Re: Win money, coaching from nutsinho

    Quote Originally Posted by nutsinho
    The next part of the competition will be a battle royale in which I will play some 6 max pokers with you. We will schedule a 3-HOUR 4-TABLE session of $.50/1 NLHE on POKERSTARS for sometime later in February. The person who is up the most money after this session according to a competitor's PT or HEM will receive informal (but unlimited) coaching from me on AIM throughout March including sweats and much discussion.
    You will end up coaching yourself imo.

    Seriously though I would have to really try to calculate how much -ev it would be to 4 table against you and 5 other regs here to see if this deal makes sense. There could be some serious negative variance happening due to weird end game betting patterns just to finish ahead in the bet. Yea, I know I am such a nit. I may still submit a response just cuz the coaching experience would prolly still be worth it.
    Poker is easy, it's winning at poker that's hard.
  22. #22
    make sure your PM box has enough to room, I'm sure you'll be getting a lot of responses

    you won't be getting any from me, I already own you
  23. #23
    nutsinho's Avatar
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    oh also to ensure that there is no flipping or other BS at the end of the 6max session, i reserve the right to coach anyone i want
    My bankroll is the amount of money I would spend or lose before I got a job. It is calculated by adding my net worth to whatever I can borrow.
  24. #24
    Amazing offer. Gl every1.
    Currently thinking of a new quote/signature... Some sort of prayer to the Poker gods for enlightment etc..
  25. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by nutsinho
    oh also to ensure that there is no flipping or other BS at the end of the 6max session, i reserve the right to coach anyone i want
    obv

    Why don't you just say that you'll choose the "winner" based on game play in the 6m session? Not worry about total amounts won but instead on whatever "impresses" you about the players?
  26. #26
    nutsinho's Avatar
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    i considered that but meh. poker is about winning the money, not showing off, and i am already in control of enough aspects of this contest.
    My bankroll is the amount of money I would spend or lose before I got a job. It is calculated by adding my net worth to whatever I can borrow.
  27. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by nutsinho
    oh also to ensure that there is no flipping or other BS at the end of the 6max session, i reserve the right to coach anyone i want

    If I'm a finalist and we just started flipping, I would definitely win this contest. I own nuts in flips on Stars.
    Flopping quads and boats like its my job
  28. #28
    Stacks's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nutsinho
    oh also to ensure that there is no flipping or other BS at the end of the 6max session, i reserve the right to coach anyone i want
    whew... then I'm an easy shoe-in.. Me thinks nuts has a man crush on me..
  29. #29
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    Default Re: Win money, coaching from nutsinho

    Quote Originally Posted by nutsinho
    We will schedule a 3-HOUR 4-TABLE session of $.50/1 NLHE on POKERSTARS for sometime later in February.
    in, and if my definitions hold I'll even open a poker stars account...
  30. #30
    PM's sent..... Lockup seat 1!
  31. #31
    Looking forward to send you a pm
  32. #32
    All right, I'm in. I sent a pm to nutshino. Even if I don't win (and I don't really expect to), writing has helped me think more clearly about poker. Big thanks to nutshino for doing this and reading all our stuff.
  33. #33

    Default Re: Win money, coaching from nutsinho

    Quote Originally Posted by nutsinho
    This competition is targeted at people who are playing 50NL-600NL. [/b]
    I'd love to give this a try but unfortunately I am no longer rolled for $50NL
  34. #34
    Oh come on.. it's just guidelines guys! send your pm's anyways imo
    Nine to five is how to survive - I ain't trying to survive / I'm trying to live it to the limit and love it a lot //

    Can offer RB deals on most sites, PM me.
  35. #35
    I'd really like to try, but I think because I'm disliked I don't stand a chance at winning.
  36. #36
    sent
  37. #37
    nutsinho's Avatar
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    the tougher a topic you pick, the greater chance you will have at winning. if you go for the obvious choice(s) you probably won't win unless your response is super impressive.
    My bankroll is the amount of money I would spend or lose before I got a job. It is calculated by adding my net worth to whatever I can borrow.
  38. #38
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    I have no idea how to put any of these concepts into words, so i'm just gonna sit and wait and learn.....cant wait to see the winners explanations.
    Gd idea btw!
  39. #39
    Quote Originally Posted by nutsinho
    the tougher a topic you pick, the greater chance you will have at winning. if you go for the obvious choice(s) you probably won't win unless your response is super impressive.
    Yeah, I thought that, too, but you have KNOW something about a topic to write about it.

    I'm still working on a couple. Writing my thoughts down is helping to focus my mind on good concepts and ways to think about poker. Thanks to nuts for reading all this, and hosting the competition.
  40. #40
    Folks, the idea is to try the definitions on your own FOR YOUR BENEFIT. It will be almost as beneficial to do the exercise as it would be to win coaching from Nuts. Trust me.
    Just completing the exercise will get your mind actively thinking about poker concepts rather than just passively learning spoon fed material. You will have more lightbulb moments by thinking your own way through a problem than you ever will by reading someone else's opinions. Don't believe me, ask ISF or someone else that progressed through the ranks quickly. I would bet you that they would say introspection has advanced their game more than anything else.
    Playing live . . . thanks alot Bin Laden.
  41. #41
    Quote Originally Posted by nutsinho
    the tougher a topic you pick, the greater chance you will have at winning. if you go for the obvious choice(s) you probably won't win unless your response is super impressive.
    What two topics do you think you've got the least responses to so far?

    I'll give one of those a shot even though my understanding may be limited.
    Currently thinking of a new quote/signature... Some sort of prayer to the Poker gods for enlightment etc..
  42. #42
    Quote Originally Posted by Silly String
    Folks, the idea is to try the definitions on your own FOR YOUR BENEFIT. It will be almost as beneficial to do the exercise as it would be to win coaching from Nuts. Trust me.
    Just completing the exercise will get your mind actively thinking about poker concepts rather than just passively learning spoon fed material. You will have more lightbulb moments by thinking your own way through a problem than you ever will by reading someone else's opinions. Don't believe me, ask ISF or someone else that progressed through the ranks quickly. I would bet you that they would say introspection has advanced their game more than anything else.
    Yeah, I agree with this. Also, basically if I don't win I want my answers to be completely wrong, because I feel like I don't implement these concepts nearly effectively enough.
  43. #43
    nutsinho's Avatar
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    less than 24 hours left imo. looking for a good one on sizing in 3bet pots. ***
    My bankroll is the amount of money I would spend or lose before I got a job. It is calculated by adding my net worth to whatever I can borrow.
  44. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by nutsinho
    less than 24 hours left imo. looking for a good one on sizing in 3bet pots. ***
    Thats the one that really made my mind go blank, and therefore the one I was looking foward to reading the most. Hope someone comes up with something good.
    Just dipping my toes back in.
  45. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by bjsaust
    Quote Originally Posted by nutsinho
    less than 24 hours left imo. looking for a good one on sizing in 3bet pots. ***
    Thats the one that really made my mind go blank, and therefore the one I was looking foward to reading the most. Hope someone comes up with something good.
    cool, that and delayed c-betting are the only two I've bothered putting any work into. Now I have to condense 4pages of 3-bet notes into something coherent... Balance I'll gain more from reading, levelling bores me, and initiative reversal maybe applies less in the small stakes full-ring games I play?

    also, I'll be sending in two definition essay things - but am not sure whether I'll play the prize session even if what I write is deemed good enough. Something about playing a game-style I'm unfamiliar with (6-max) at a table where I won't expect to have any edge (6-max regs who can write decent theory) at a stake (100nl) that I deem material in both bankroll and real $ terms...

    by the way - writing these is ++++EV regardless of what happens next...
  46. #46
    checking
  47. #47
    This is awesome, but my weekend didn't work out like I wanted it to. I've only gotten one submission done. I've worked on two others (and benefitted from thinking about this stuff), so I'm happy. Good luck to everyone who is trying to win this (it won't be me), and thanks again to nutshino for making the offer.
  48. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by ZwiFT
    checking
    the time?
  49. #49
    Quote Originally Posted by daven
    Quote Originally Posted by ZwiFT
    checking
    the time?
    spot on =)
  50. #50
    Thank you Nuts, I think this is really damn cool for you to give up a ton of your time to help out the forum regs. Creating this thread and subsequent definition threads will be a huge contribution to the forum that you paid for with winnings/time you have forgone.

    I'm not real happy with one of my definitions, but at least I sent two in. They take longer than you can imagine unless you have a great understanding of the concept and one of those rare brains that organizes thoughts on paper into a coherent structure very quickly.
    Since it is getting close to Noon, good luck everyone!
    Playing live . . . thanks alot Bin Laden.
  51. #51
    I started writing something about 3bet pots yesterday, but i figured i would take atleast one week to write something about this, because its such a wide concept. So I decided to stand on the sideline reading the winners instead =) Gl everyone
  52. #52
    nutsinho's Avatar
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    gonna go through all of the entries again after my session and then announce the winners
    My bankroll is the amount of money I would spend or lose before I got a job. It is calculated by adding my net worth to whatever I can borrow.
  53. #53
    nutsinho's Avatar
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    Okay, I've decided on the winners for the first part of this competition. I want to thank everyone for their contributions. I was very impressed by the effort that most of you put into the responses. The content for the most part was better than I anticipated also. Please don't be offended if your response wasn't chosen as a winner- I am by no means a poker theory expert. I basically looked for three things in each of the answers: general correctness, effort, and key points that nutsinho would endorse. I am only going to post the winning responses but I encourage everyone else to use their responses in this or other threads on FTR. I don't think there was a single response that I didn't feel was postworthy. Also, I have made minor edits in a couple of the responses just for clarity and correctness for the purposes of further discussion.
    My bankroll is the amount of money I would spend or lose before I got a job. It is calculated by adding my net worth to whatever I can borrow.
  54. #54
    nutsinho's Avatar
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    for Leveling the winner is gametight. A short and simple answer but a good one:
    Leveling is an in-game battle of psychology.

    It stems from this:
    Level 0: What do I have?
    Level 1: What does my opponent have?
    Level 2: What does my opponent think I have?
    Level 3: What does my opponent think that I think they have?
    Level 4: What does my opponent think that I think they think I have?

    A great example of leveling is shown in this hand.

    Lets say it HU between two thinking, aggressive opponents. 5/10:
    Abe opens BU to 30
    Bob (hero) calls with ATo

    flop is A92
    Bob checks

    Abe cbets 45 (this is a board that Abe will be cbetting with nearly 100% of his range. Because both players know this, there is some interesting leveling that can go on here.)

    Bob c/r to 125 (In this case, Bob is making this c/r because he thinks he can "level" his opponent to play back at him with air. A c/r on this board looks very unbelievable to Abe for many reasons: 1) Bob not 3betting pre takes out a lot of BIG aces from his range 2) Bob knows Abe is cbetting a wide range here
    3) The board is so dry that it would be counter-intuitive to fast play a big hand.)

    Because of all these factors, Bobs c/r can look very "bluffy" to Abe and can cause him to attempt a re-bluff or even to stack off very light on this board.

    Lets say they both get it in here and Abe shows JJ and Bob scoops the pot with AT. He has essentially leveled his oppenent to stack off light by thinking a level ahead of his oppenent.

    Obviously this is an important concept at mid-high stakes because you need to get into your oppenents head and decipher what actions he is likely to take in response to something that you do. Another easy example is a 3betting a guy two hands in a row. Some players may give more respect the second time because "you wouldnt do that with a bluff twice" or they might be more inclined to think your pushing them around. It is important to figure out which level your opposition is on, so that you may play correctly against them.
    My bankroll is the amount of money I would spend or lose before I got a job. It is calculated by adding my net worth to whatever I can borrow.
  55. #55
    nutsinho's Avatar
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    For the 3bet pots topic I did not choose a winner. This isn't to say that the responses are bad but they did not address the key points i wanted to see specifically enough. Instead I am going to make a thread where we talk about 3bet pots.
    My bankroll is the amount of money I would spend or lose before I got a job. It is calculated by adding my net worth to whatever I can borrow.
  56. #56
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    For Balance I picked two winners: Meeloche and Noble007. Their responses were both quality and were similar in content.

    Meeloche:
    Balance

    Simple Definition as it applies to poker: Taking the same line as a bluff as you would for value, example a cbet on an AK9 board with 78o.

    The point is not to bluff 50% of the time and value bet 50% of the time on the example board, but to credibly represent a hand in your value range every time you bluff. As you move up in stakes and you begin to play against people who are thinking about more details than the colour of their cards you have to play in a way that they cannot exploit you. Basic example: A TAG villain opens from the CO and you call out of the BB with a certain range. The flop comes 2s7h8h. You check because that’s what you do with your entire range of hands. TAG villain cbets for ¾ of the pot. If you only c/r here with 88, 77, 78and 22 (which are definitely in your range in the BB) you are exploitable. By doing this you allow villain to play perfectly against you. He can cbet this board 100% of the time and make a profit because he knows the only time you c/r is if you have a set or top 2 and if you call you either have a weak made hand or a draw which he can barrel you off of on appropriate turn and river combinations. When you widen your c/r range on this board to include draws, over pairs, tptk and air. Villain is in a much more difficult spot. The basic adjustment is that he will usually make is to do 2 things. He will play his nutted hands very aggressively and the rest of his range passively. This change in behavior helps you play perfect against him with your range of hands.
    Mid-Stakes and High stakes poker is a game of adjustments. In the above paragraph I talked about a simple example of how widening and balancing your c/r range on a certain board texture creates a difficult situation for villain and forces him to play his hand in a way that is easy to read. When you meet villains that have this knowledge already they are going to be adjusting to this. This brings perceived ranges into the equation and my next point.
    Being perfectly balanced in all situations isn’t always the most +ev situation. There are situations where I don’t need to have air in my range because villain assumes that I have air in my range so my nutted hands still get paid off. An example of this is in blind versus blind dynamics versus aggressive mid stakes regulars. For example: it is folded around to me on the button and I open to 3bb, the SB folds and an aggressive regular who can be spewy at times 3 bets to 10bb. What I know about the villain is that he is very aggressive preflop. I know that he is aware that I’m raising a wide range on the button and that he knows that I know that this is a good spot for him to 3 bet me light. Therefore this is a good spot for me to 4 bet him light and he knows this. I know this particular villain will assume that I have air in my 4 betting range based on my preflop stats and the fact that I am a regular and open a wide range on the button. This would not make it a profitable 4 bet bluff spot since he is liable to 5 bet jam on me with a wideish range. The EV that I would gain by him knowing that I can have air here is lost because he already thinks that I have air in my range. So I can fold all the hands that I don’t want to felt and 4 bet only my value range. I don’t need to balance my 4 betting range in this spot because my perceived range already has air in it.
    When you are thinking about balance you have to realize there is a lot more to it than just taking the same lines for value and for bluffs. When playing against thinking players looking to exploit you, your perceived range is much more important than your actual range. As you play with good players more who are adjusting to your actual range as they learn about it you can modify it in a way to exploit them. Unlimited holdem is a complicated game, but as long as you are adjusting to others players range and exploiting them you will always be +ev.

    Noble:
    Balance (unexploitability)

    In this definition I will attempt to explain what balance is & why it becomes more important to understand it as you move up the limits.

    When you first start playing poker you don't learn or aren't taught alot about 'balance' because at the micro limits your average opponent is only thinking about poker at a very basic level - 'What hand do I have?' & they are also far too loose, this means in order to earn $ you basically just have to wait for good hands and then value bet the shit out of them.

    However playing this style of poker your range actually becomes very 'un-balanced' because when you check you are usually weak and when you bet or raise you are usually strong.

    This only becomes a problem though as you move above the micro limits and encounter better players who are thinking about poker at a slightly higher level - 'What range of hands does my opponent have?'
    These players are capable of exploiting your un-balanced range by often bluffing you when you check and getting away from alot of marginal made hands when you show strength.

    Your range can also be un-balanced in a multitude of other ways both pre and post-flop.
    Eg. If you only 3bet KK & AA pre-flop your range is very un-balanced and it allows players to exploit you by being able to get away from hands like TT-QQ/AK that you should be getting alot of value out of.
    Even the entire lines you routinely take with specific hands can be said to be 'un-balanced'.
    Eg. If you only check-call flop check-call turn when you have a flush draw your range is very un-balanced and you're unlikely to get paid off if you hit on the river.

    So now if you don't want to go broke you have to learn how to 'balance' your range vs these players, for example sometimes you will check your good hands and sometimes you will bet or raise as a bluff so that you can't be exploited as easily, in fact by looking at the pot odds your bet is offering your opponent you can determine the optimal 'bluffing frequency'. And by balancing your range at this frequency it is possible to make yourself nearly 'unexploitable' in alot of situations.

    Eg. You shove your last $100 into a $100 pot on the river.
    To call you your opponent needs to have a better hand 33.333% of the time. (Because 2/3 times he will lose $100 and 1 time he will win $200)
    So if you balance your range in this spot so that you are bluffing 33.3% of the time and have a better hand than your opponent 66.6% of the time you make yourself unexploitable, because at this optimal bluffing frequency even if your opponent chooses the best option vs your range the best he can hope to do long term is break even.

    So is this what you should be aiming for as you move up the limits - perfect balance & unexploitability?
    Well for a while I thought the answer was yes and I devised a pre-flop strategy that made me almost unexploitable, but thanks to input from some of the more experienced players on FTR I learnt
    that being unexploitable doesn't neccesarily make you the most $ & poker is all about maximising your $!

    No, if you want to be more profitable vs these level 2, 'what range of hands does he have' players then you need to think a level above them and ask yourself, 'what is my perceived range vs this player?'
    Then when you are considering a pot size shove on the river as in the example above you should be able to decide whether he will think you are value-betting more than 66.6% of the time in this spot.
    If the answer is yes your opponent will fold more than 33.33% of the time in which case you should 'un-balance' your range by bluffing more to exploit this and if you think your opponent will call too often you should value bet more frequently.

    So thanks to FTR I have learnt how to balance my range and then once I understand how my opponent is likely to perceive my range how to un-balance it in order to take the most +ev line.

    I hope from this definition you will see that having an understanding of balance and why playing a more balanced range is important as you move up the levels, but that it is only a base from which to work so that you can avoid being exploited and then figure out how best to exploit your opponents. A case of understanding the rules so that you know how to break them.
    My bankroll is the amount of money I would spend or lose before I got a job. It is calculated by adding my net worth to whatever I can borrow.
  57. #57
    nutsinho's Avatar
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    For Delayed Cbetting the winner is Parasurama. This response could have used better discussion of the bluffing aspect of delayed cbetting, but overall I thought this was very well composed.


    Delayed Continuation Betting

    A continuation bet, or cbet, is, as the preflop raiser (PFR), continuing or following through with a bet on the flop, whether for value or as a bluff. A delayed cbet is deferring the option to continue the betting by checking the flop and instead betting the turn (or even checking the turn and betting the river).

    The cbet is especially powerful in NLHE because a single two-card holding will only make a pair or better ~33% of the time on the flop, meaning that if you cbet and your opponent believes your show of strength, you will win the pot much of the time when he hits nothing, and some of the time when he hits something weak enough that he may not want to continue with, i.e. bottom pair. If you obtain the initiative preflop and press it on the flop, you will win a majority of the pots in which neither you nor your opponent hit the flop, which is the most basic measure of whether you are outplaying the opposition.

    It would seem that cbetting 100% of flops would be +EV; however, the problem is that with awareness of the power of cbetting nearly universal in the poker community, it has become highly exploitable, with the player without initiative either floating or raising flops where the preflop raiser’s range is behind the preflop caller’s range. So, as the PFR, to prevent becoming exploitable, we are looking to only cbet flops where our range is ahead of our opponent’s range and where neither range is hit by the flop.

    Delayed cbetting comes into play on those flops where our range is behind our opponent’s range. Cbetting these flops with all of our preflop raising range will not show a positive expectation against reasonably-skilled opponents. This does not mean, however, that we have to give up on the pot. If our opponent checks to us on the flop and again on the turn (or checks in position on the flop), he has narrowed his range to the point where our range is again ahead of his, which means a bet on the turn will show a positive expectation.

    Example in a 2-bet pot:

    A shorthanded NLHE game with six players, we raise UTG to 3BB and everyone folds to the player in the SB, who calls, and the BB folds. The flop comes 5Club 7Heart 9Heart. The SB checks to us. Let’s say our range for raising UTG in a shorthanded game is {22+,ATs+,KJs+,QJs,AJo+,KQo,QJo} and our opponent, who we estimate to be a somewhat loose-passive but thinking player, has a range for calling an UTG raise in the SB of {QQ-22,AQs-AJs,KQs,QJs,JTs,T9s,98s,87s,76s,AQo-AJo,KQo}. Preflop, our range is a 53:47 favorite over his. After this flop, which hits his range harder than ours, SB’s range becomes a 52:48 favorite. Against a less aware villain, betting this flop might show a profit, but we know that our opponent knows that his range is stronger on this flop than ours, so a bet here with all of our range would be, in a vacuum, a –EV play. So we instead divide our range into two subranges, and manipulate our opponent’s range so that all of our lines can be profitable.

    Nut+air subrange: These are the hands that we are willing to make a continuation bet with, those hands that we gain the most from by betting. The nut hands are ahead of our opponent’s range and if our opponent folds to our air we profit immensely. Moreover, the combination of nut and air hands in our cbetting range gives our play balance. Our subrange here is {22-55,77,99,KK,AA,Axhh,QJ/KJ/KQ combos without flush draws}.

    Medium-strength (showdown value) subrange: This is the subrange that we are going for a delayed cbet with. These hands may be best but cannot stand a reraise on the flop and become weaker if called. This range is {66,88,TT-QQ,Ax,QJ/KJ/KQ combos with flush draws}. These hands can improve greatly by seeing a free turn and do not want to bloat the pot. If our opponent checks to us on the turn again, even if we haven’t improved, we can make the delayed cbet and likely take it down. Our opponent has shown weakness twice, and many of these hands are likely to be best now.

    Example in a 3-bet pot:

    A loose-aggressive player opens on the HJ in a six-handed NLHE game for 3.5BB, we 3b from the BTN to 11BB, the blinds fold, and the HJ calls. The flop is ADiamond 7Spade 5Spade. HJ checks. Our range for 3betting this player is {AA,KK,QQ ,AK,67s,78s,89s,75s,86s,97s,22-66}. We estimate villain’s 3bet calling range to be {KK,QQ,JJ,TT,99,AQ,AJs,KQs,QJs,TJs}. On this flop, our range is 48.5:51.5 against our opponent’s, another situation where betting our entire range is going to be –EV. Again we’re dividing our range into two subranges, those that we check, and those that go for the delayed cbet.

    Nut+air subrange: {AA,AK,6s8s,7s9s,75s,22-66} These hands play easily against a c/r, which we expect with a common frequency on A-high flops in 3b pots.

    Medium-strength+weaker draw subrange: {KK,QQ, 67s,78s, 97s,89s/86s(no spades)} Betting KK here folds out all worse hands and keeps all better hands in. Betting QQ folds out all worse hands and folds only one better hand (KK). None of the hands in this range can continue against a c/r and all can benefit from seeing a free turn. If villain checks to us again on the turn it is much less likely that he has an A since it is rare for players to go for a c/r twice in a row. We can bet and often get value with our high pairs and folds with our junk.

    In conclusion, on flops where our opponent’s range is ahead of ours, it is often wiser to cbet only a polarized range, and to go for a delayed cbet with medium-strength holdings. In this way we manipulate our opponents’ ranges such that we can get value often when we are ahead and get folds often when we are behind while at the same time avoiding building a huge pot with mediocre holdings and adding balance to our flop checks and turn bets.
    My bankroll is the amount of money I would spend or lose before I got a job. It is calculated by adding my net worth to whatever I can borrow.
  58. #58
    nutsinho's Avatar
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    The winner for Reversing initiative in a hand is Renton. This was also the overall best response. He explained it even better than I could have myself.

    Reversing the initiative in a hand (when is this appropriate and why is it valuable)

    First I think its important to define what initiative is, and how it varies.

    Player A open raises preflop, and Player B calls in position. Player A has the initiative. In order to maintain the initiative, Player A must bet. If he checks he has lost initiative and Player B gains it. Basically any time the flow of aggression in a hand is in favor of one player, that player is said to have the initiative. Whenever this flow is broken, initiative reverses.

    It's also important to note that initiative comes in varying strengths.

    Examples of strong initiative:

    -HU pot on flop AA7 rainbow, Preflop raisor
    -basically any 3-bet pot, Preflop 3-bettor
    -any time there’s a bet-raise-flatcall on the flop or turn, on the next street the raisor has strong initiative

    Examples of weak initiative:

    -multiway pot 9s8s4d, preflop raisor
    -Tag A opens button, Tag B 3-bets BB, A calls, flop AJx rainbow and Tag B checks. Tag A has weak initiative.
    -limped pot, checks to player last to act.

    In general a player's initiative is stronger as his range is stronger, and/or as their opponent range is weaker. See ISF theorem. Obviously it becomes much easier to reverse the initiative when it is weak. Another way of looking at it would be to estimate the likelihood of a player to use his initiative. The less this is, the weaker it is.

    Series of possible initiative reversals and why they are good:

    Note: For simplicity assume HU pots in the following examples.

    1) Light 3-betting preflop

    People who open very wide ranges have weak initiative, and you should reverse the initiative with hands that aren't good enough to play without the initiative, which in the end widens the range of profitable hands you play against the opener. Additionally, its pretty difficult to reverse the initiative of a 3-bet preflop. 4-bet bluffing is really high variance and many aren't willing to bother with it.

    2) Check-raising the flop

    Just like how people open exploitably wide ranges preflop, there are also people who continuation bet way too much. Against them you should of course be capitalizing by check raising them often with bluffs. You should also be checkraising with decent hands like TPGK. This will widen your legitimate range of value, thereby fortifying your initiative and making your checkraising range very tough to play against. Just like with 4-betting, most players aren't willing to 3-bet bluff on the flop.

    Note: 1) and 2) are in nearly direct opposition. I find myself 3-betting far less vs. people who have really exploitable c-bet tendencies.

    3) Leading the flop

    This is one of the simplest and most effective ways of reversing initiative. Whether value or bluff, leading works best in situations where villain isn't expected to bet as often (i.e. when his initiative is at its weakest). Leading allows you to give yourself a chance to win the pot cheaply, while denying villain the option of pot-controlling some of the weaker hands in his range. Best of all, it represents a very credible range, giving you the option of barreling and making villain's life generally difficult.

    4) C/c and lead turn

    Similar to 3), this works best when you expect the preflop raisor to often check behind the turn. You may have a read that a nitty player will bet 99 on a 8xx flop, but then auto-check behind a blank turn for pot control. Vs this player you would want to c/c lead with a hand like JJ. This play is also good when the turn card strengthens your range, or weakens villain's.

    5) Raising flop or turn IP

    Lastly, it can be valuable to raise villain's c-bets ip. Obviously with a nut hand or a bluff you will be doing this often, but more interestingly it can be good to do this with medium strength hands or draws, in order to show down or get a free card on the next street, respectively. In my opinion this reversal is a bit weaker than the OOP counterpart, due to the fact that its harder to have a credible range of value when in position.



    When is it more appropriate to play without the initiative?

    -When your hand has high implied odds. (i.e. coldcalling with 44 or 87s preflop, calling a cbet with 86 on 973 board)

    -When your hand is good but not nut. (i.e. coldcalling with ATs preflop, calling a double barrel with KQ on Qd8d6s2h)

    -When your plan involves taking away the initiative at a more opportune time. (i.e. floating, slowplaying)
    My bankroll is the amount of money I would spend or lose before I got a job. It is calculated by adding my net worth to whatever I can borrow.
  59. #59
    nutsinho's Avatar
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    Congratulations to Renton, gametight, noble007, Parasurama, and meeloche. If you don't have stars money, please move 1k or so there ASAP
    My bankroll is the amount of money I would spend or lose before I got a job. It is calculated by adding my net worth to whatever I can borrow.
  60. #60
    Holy schnikees. I can see why I didn't win one. Those responses are unbelievably well written and thought out for mid stakes grinders. Thank you all for your efforts and sharing the knowledge. Congrats to the winners and thanks again Nuts.
    Playing live . . . thanks alot Bin Laden.
  61. #61
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    please to be letting everyone know when the 6maxament is going down.
    eeevees are not monies yet...they are like baby monies.
  62. #62
    Thanks nuts! Well done every1!

    Quote Originally Posted by gametight
    PM's sent..... Lockup seat 1!
    Wow, you weren't kidding!

    Yay I get to 4 table 6max for 3hours with 4 good mid stakes ftr members and a guy who made 400k last month!! .... mmm, hang on a second...

    Seriously though I'm happy to play the 1$ Nl game, for the experience and chance to get Nuts coaching & I won't be scared money but I'll probably have a stop loss of about 5 buy-ins ($500) is it still cool if I take part?

    Alternatively if the money aspect of it isn't really important to you guys we can drop down a level and I can risk 10 buy-ins at .5 Nl.

    Either way looking fwd to it!
    Currently thinking of a new quote/signature... Some sort of prayer to the Poker gods for enlightment etc..
  63. #63
    Im open shoving everything with more than 20% equity. GL donkeys!
  64. #64
    Awesome answers guys!

    gl to the winners in the tourney!
    Quote Originally Posted by Jay-Z
    I'm a couple hands down and I'm tryin' to get back
    I gave the other grip, I lost a flip for five stacks
  65. #65
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    I posted my response in my Op thread, its on delayed c-betting. A couple errors have already been pointed out, and it doesnt have the maths/equity calcs of the winner, but explores a few wider options in a vague way .
    Just dipping my toes back in.
  66. #66
    Yeah, nice job guys. First place is the opportunity to lose your $$ to nutshino. :P

    Srsly, thanks to nutsinho for reading all this and evaluating it.
  67. #67
    XTR1000's Avatar
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    congrats guys. im too tired right now to read thru so much quality but im getting back here.

    im gonna post my contributions on 3bet pots, balance and initiative in my op/blog tomorrow and appreciate feedback.
    Quote Originally Posted by bigred View Post
    xtr stand for exotic tranny retards
    yo
  68. #68
    A cool opportunity and I'm looking forward to playing some poker with some thinking people for a change. GJ everbody who took the time to send something in.
  69. #69
    Wow, awesome. How are we going to decide seating?
  70. #70
    bode's Avatar
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    noble quit being such a nit.
    eeevees are not monies yet...they are like baby monies.
  71. #71
    Congrats to all winners!

    I've yet only read Renton's writing and I think it's toptop quality.
    Great initiative and worked out great as well, imo.

    I'll try give input on different topics in the following days, as I feel a little guilty profiting from all this great info and not doing anything for it.

    Noble, let them all spew away at you!
  72. #72
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    Wow what a great oppotunity for all of you guys, glgl. Thanks for the great information ill be printing these articles off to reread later.
  73. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by meeloche
    A cool opportunity and I'm looking forward to playing some poker with some thinking people for a change. GJ everbody who took the time to send something in.
    They still aren't going to respect your raises!

    Great job everyone. Nice articles. I'm glad I didn't get around to writing one. These are all very well put and very deserving, and I likely wouldn't have had a chance.

    GL in the game. Just a note on nutsinho. Do not 3barrel KT on an AJxxx board. He will most definitely tank on the river, tell you "Here.. Take my donation", and then call you with KQ and pwn you. Shit happens.
  74. #74
    Nice job and congrats to everyone!!

    I wasn't able to partake, although I could have written a mean 3 betting article.

    This was the best forum idea ever imo.
    "It is impossible for you to learn what you think you already know."
  75. #75
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    Just noticed this thread... it's the 10th.
    cool idea

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