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Three hands to discu ...umm... berate

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  1. #1
    pocketfours's Avatar
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    Default Three hands to discu ...umm... berate

    Three strange hands from yesterday.


    Hand 1: Villain is 26/20 with 14% 3bet and 15% fold to 3bet over 200 hands.

    SB ($138)
    Hero ($141)
    UTG ($87.49)
    UTG+1 ($105)
    CO ($253)
    BTN ($251)

    Dealt to Hero 2 2
    fold, fold, fold, BTN raises to $3, fold, Hero raises to $12, BTN calls $9

    FLOP ($24.50) 8 3 4
    Hero bets $16.33, BTN calls $16.33

    TURN ($57.16) 8 3 4 3
    Hero bets $28, BTN raises to $223 (AI), Hero calls $84.91 (AI)

    -------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Hand 2: Villain is 40/17/2.0af over 200 hands.

    Hero ($122)
    BB ($113)
    UTG ($171)
    CO ($98.60)
    BTN ($147)

    Dealt to Hero A T
    fold, fold, BTN calls $1, Hero raises to $5, fold, BTN calls $4

    FLOP ($11) 9 4 8
    Hero bets $7.33, BTN calls $7.33

    TURN ($25.66) 9 4 8 Q
    Hero bets $19.24, BTN raises to $51.31, Hero calls $32.07

    RIVER ($128) 9 4 8 Q 6
    Hero checks, BTN bets $64.14, Hero calls $58.46 (AI)

    -------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Hand 3. Villain is 31/16 with 1.5 af and 0% 3bet over 100 hands.

    SB ($123)
    BB ($137)
    Hero ($113)
    UTG+1 ($145)
    CO ($95.43)
    BTN ($92)

    Dealt to Hero A 7
    Hero raises to $3.50, fold, fold, fold, SB calls $3, fold

    FLOP ($8) K 4 Q
    SB checks, Hero bets $5.33, SB raises to $17.77, Hero calls $12.44

    TURN ($43.54) K 4 Q Q
    SB checks, Hero checks

    RIVER ($43.54) K 4 Q Q T
    SB bets $32.65, Hero folds
    Last edited by pocketfours; 10-08-2011 at 05:47 PM.


  2. #2
    rpm's Avatar
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    hand 1 why do you want to 3b a hand that never flops a decent made hand or draw OOP against someone who never folds to 3bets?
  3. #3
    pocketfours's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rpm View Post
    hand 1 why do you want to 3b a hand that never flops a decent made hand or draw OOP against someone who never folds to 3bets?
    Isn't it obvious from the way the hand was played that I already consider it a decent made hand without improvement?


  4. #4
    1. Yeah what rpm said. Unless a big amount of that not folding to 3 bet is villain 4-bet folding to our jams I'd never 3 bet this. 3 bet jamming vs a 4 bet monkey is obv fine though. Post flop looks pretty good assuming you have the read he hates folding post flop and 4 bet all his TT+ type of stuff pre. If these are the case I've no idea what he's supposed to have here that beats 22 - idk why he'd jam 8x here.

    2. Idk, lots of his straights have gotten there (57 T7 JT) he probably also has Qs up and shit. A load of club draws have sd value of some sort. Think we need to be pretty sure he jams all his missed clubs into this SPR to call here.

    3. Does not compute....
  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by pocketfours View Post
    Isn't it obvious from the way the hand was played that I already consider it a decent made hand without improvement?
    On this board I guess, but surely so many boards are going to be horrible to play oop with 22, even if he does have light stack off/bluffy tendencies?
  6. #6
    1: I'd say c/f flop is best play. I don't think this is a good way to play it and i think while you may be ahead a a decent-large % of the time I think the turn is still a fold.

    2: Fold river. I'm not sure if you believe the raise on the turn is small and therefore you're discounting a lot of nut hands but if he's a old fish it's plausible this is a big raise for him.

    3. Call, although I think it is somewhat marginal.
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  7. #7
    pocketfours's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by IowaSkinsFan View Post
    2: Fold river. I'm not sure if you believe the raise on the turn is small and therefore you're discounting a lot of nut hands but if he's a old fish it's plausible this is a big raise for him.
    Pretty sure he has the nuts or air here as I don't think he would limp a pair otb based on his stats and the way he was playing. I think just folding to the turn raise is probably best since I may not get his stack even if I hit.


  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Carroters View Post
    On this board I guess, but surely so many boards are going to be horrible to play oop with 22, even if he does have light stack off/bluffy tendencies?
    Meh. Pretty tough to play garbage IP without the lead as well. Especially if you suck at poker like this guy.


  9. #9
    p4 your HHs are awesome. you obviously have better reads on these guys than their stats so I'd love to hear your thought process on each street here.

    Hand 1 -- His low fold to 3bet obviously indicates he doesn't like folding, which means he probably floats a lot of flops? Do you think your sizing induces him to spazz 75, random overcards, etc?

    Hand 2 -- If you think he has a ton of air I can see how you would flat and call non-club rivers, but I'd probably just jam the turn, is that terrible?

    Hand 3 -- I can totally see why you did this, I'd probably call cuz I'm a station.
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  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by baudib View Post
    Hand 1 -- His low fold to 3bet obviously indicates he doesn't like folding, which means he probably floats a lot of flops? Do you think your sizing induces him to spazz 75, random overcards, etc?
    I think he calls with any gutshot or better draw and very possibly jams random cards or overs. Plan was to c/c most rivers.

    Quote Originally Posted by baudib View Post
    Hand 2 -- If you think he has a ton of air I can see how you would flat and call non-club rivers, but I'd probably just jam the turn, is that terrible?
    I think jamming or folding is usually the best line. Villain was spazzy enough to show up with no pair no draw (friday night euro games lol) so I thought this is slightly better.


    Quote Originally Posted by baudib View Post
    Hand 3 -- I can totally see why you did this, I'd probably call cuz I'm a station.
    Yeah I think I'm smoked here vs this passive guy. Never saw him get out of line. The table sure had a fun time in the chat once I open folded ha. Fun way to get free poker lessons...


  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by pocketfours View Post
    Isn't it obvious from the way the hand was played that I already consider it a decent made hand without improvement?
    well yeah but that doesn't necessarily make it a good or bad play. your hand is literally a flip against any two cards preflop. you are out of position against an opponent who wants to fuck with you and the SPR is >5. seems really marginal to me. maybe i'm a nit though.

    Board:
    Dead:

    equity win tie pots won pots tied
    Hand 0: 50.334% 49.39% 00.95% 6215338932 119416020.00 { 22 }
    Hand 1: 49.666% 48.72% 00.95% 6131263428 119416020.00 { random }
  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by rpm View Post
    well yeah but that doesn't necessarily make it a good or bad play. your hand is literally a flip against any two cards preflop. you are out of position against an opponent who wants to fuck with you and the SPR is >5. seems really marginal to me. maybe i'm a nit though.

    Board:
    Dead:

    equity win tie pots won pots tied
    Hand 0: 50.334% 49.39% 00.95% 6215338932 119416020.00 { 22 }
    Hand 1: 49.666% 48.72% 00.95% 6131263428 119416020.00 { random }
    It is, in fact, really marginal.


  13. #13
    Looking at Hand 3 again, it looks like a super-snap fold. This guy is probably not C-R one-pair or a draw ever, KQ is the bottom of his range on the flop as he has all set combos. Probably crying call with 44.
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  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by pocketfours View Post
    Pretty sure he has the nuts or air here as I don't think he would limp a pair otb based on his stats and the way he was playing. I think just folding to the turn raise is probably best since I may not get his stack even if I hit.
    Some of his air could be one pair.

    I think the turn call is trivial.
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  15. #15
    hand 1- cf flop. bf is OK as well

    hand 2- just jam it in on the turn. he could be playing a bunch of diff strats- some of them are all Q8+, some of them have hands like A7o in them, some of them have hands like 87o and K9o on them. if you jam some set of relatively infrequent nut-type draws you put his range in a world of hurt, and im pretty sure you dont intend to slowplay your nut hands in this spot. as played fold the river, the call is obviously terrible.

    hand 3- bet turn jam river. your turn range contains plenty of semibluffs, and your river range will contain plenty of Kx hands to bluffcatch with

    hand 3-
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  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by sauce123 View Post
    hand 1- cf flop. bf is OK as well

    hand 2- just jam it in on the turn. he could be playing a bunch of diff strats- some of them are all Q8+, some of them have hands like A7o in them, some of them have hands like 87o and K9o on them. if you jam some set of relatively infrequent nut-type draws you put his range in a world of hurt, and im pretty sure you dont intend to slowplay your nut hands in this spot. as played fold the river, the call is obviously terrible.

    hand 3- bet turn jam river. your turn range contains plenty of semibluffs, and your river range will contain plenty of Kx hands to bluffcatch with

    hand 3-
    Solid berate.

    In hand one my flop line was bet/fold. On the turn it was bet/soulread. I think it's terrible to 3bet this hand vs this villain and c/f this flop, so either we fold pre or we 3bet and do something else than c/f 80% of flops.

    In hand two I considered four turn strategies, namely A: jam, B: call + c/c, C: call + c/f, D: fold. It should be clear that some strategies of villain make B > A and such was my read. I also thought that D > C because I didn't think I was getting the correct odds, so I had to choose either D or B and I didn't feel like folding vs this guy.

    So if the river call is -ev, then C > B, and because I thought D > C I should have chosen to fold turn instead. I do think my river call was fine with the reads I had although it's obviously bad vs most.

    Your line for hand three seems like a fine play.


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