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Slowplaying a big pair

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  1. #1

    Default Slowplaying a big pair

    I wanted to review this idea a little bit.

    I know in a tough game against smart regs, you'll want to occasionally limp a big pair for balance. Fine and dandy.

    How about in a standard game, given the table texture? Do you think it's more profitable in certain situations to limp, or is it still better most of the time to play it fast & straight?

    I had a hand this morning like this: I was UTG. An aggressive player (31/31/4 over 100 hands, high steal %) was on the button. A regular with nitty stats over 150 hands was on the SB, but he had really opened up suddenly a few hands ago, raising or 3-betting four hands in a row. I couldn't tell if he was on a heater or tilting for some unknown reason. Stacks for the villains were basically 100 BBs; I was at 95 BBs due to having lost the previous pot and not reloaded fast enough.

    I was dealt AA and limped. The button raised to 2.25, and the SB called (BB folded). I re-raised to 9.50. ...Good play, or would it be better to have just raised initially?

    As it happened, both players called, which surprised me. The flop was queen high with two hearts. SB checked, I pushed, both folded. Right move? Or should I give the button a chance to try to steal the pot from me, knowing he probably would about half the time?

    Overall, do you think this shows any substantial difference in profit vs. just making the normal moves (preflop raise, pot-sized flop bet on most flops)?
  2. #2
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    If they were calling a l/rr from UTG, then they were calling your bet if you raised initially. W/o being results oriented though, I still raise it up since that's the best way to get money in the pot. You can't be sure that an aggro blind stealer will always raise on the button, especially if people limp after you.

    Also l/rr is AA/KK almost 90% of the time, so your hand is ultra transparent.
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  3. #3

    Default Re: Slowplaying a big pair

    Quote Originally Posted by dalecooper
    I know in a tough game against smart regs, you'll want to occasionally limp a big pair for balance.
    Balance what?

    If the answer is small pairs, just raise them "for balance". Problem solved.
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  4. #4
    Limping with big pairs in 6max - just don't do it. The only slowplaying you should be doing is flatting with big pairs PF.
  5. #5
    Here is an example against a competent reg from FTR. I don't think I 3bet him yet in the session and I felt it would look too strong.

    PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $4 BB (6 handed) Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

    Button ($390.10)
    SB ($395.30)
    BB ($818)
    UTG ($439.10)
    Hero ($485)
    CO ($446.20)

    Preflop: Hero is MP with K, K.
    UTG raises to $16, Hero calls $16, 2 folds, SB calls $14, 1 fold.

    Flop: ($52) Q, 9, 3 (3 players)
    SB checks, UTG bets $36, Hero raises to $92, SB folds, UTG raises to $423.1, Hero calls $331.10.

    Turn: ($898.20) 9 (2 players)

    River: ($898.20) J (2 players)

    Final Pot: $898.20
    He had KdQd
  6. #6
    Here is another example from FR; same concepts apply. This is against a relative unknown.

    PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $4 BB (8 handed) Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

    saw flop|saw showdown

    UTG ($86)
    UTG+1 ($573)
    Hero ($400)
    MP2 ($80)
    CO ($441.65)
    Button ($194)
    SB ($306.50)
    BB ($270.60)

    Preflop: Hero is MP1 with K, K.
    1 fold, UTG+1 raises to $12, Hero calls $12, 1 fold, CO calls $12, 2 folds, BB calls $8.

    Flop: ($50) 5, 8, 9 (4 players)
    BB checks, UTG+1 bets $32, Hero calls $32, CO folds, BB folds.

    Turn: ($114) 5 (2 players)
    UTG+1 bets $70, Hero raises to $356, UTG+1 calls $286.

    River: ($826) 4 (2 players)

    Final Pot: $826

    Results in white below:
    UTG+1 has 9h Ah (two pair, nines and fives).
    Hero has Kc Ks (two pair, kings and fives).
    Outcome: Hero wins $826.
  7. #7
    I agree with Deanglow because I almost never open-limp with any hands so I don't open-limp big pairs either. If I do open-limp a small pair, it's because the people at my table are so clueless that they won't realize that I'm set mining and against people that bad, I don't need to balance my play.

    I do flat-call with big pairs from time to time. If I think a re-raise will look too strong, or if the people behind me like to squeeze too often, those are the two main reasons I'd consider flat-calling with a big pair. Here's a hand where I flatted AA because the BB squeezed like every time he had the opportunity. The MP player paying me off with KQ was an unexpected bonus.

    PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $6 BB (6 handed) Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

    MP ($684)
    Hero ($600)
    Button ($249.80)
    SB ($633)
    BB ($724)
    UTG ($399.85)

    Preflop: Hero is CO with A, A.
    1 fold, MP raises to $24, Hero calls $24, 3 folds.

    Flop: ($57) 6, 2, 2 (2 players)
    MP bets $42, Hero calls $42.

    Turn: ($141) K (2 players)
    MP bets $78, Hero calls $78.

    River: ($297) 9 (2 players)
    MP bets $156, Hero raises to $456, MP calls $300.

    Final Pot: $1209

    Results in white below:
    MP doesn't show.
    Hero has Ad As (two pair, aces and twos).
    Outcome: Hero wins $1209.
  8. #8

    Default Re: Slowplaying a big pair

    Quote Originally Posted by badgers
    If the answer is small pairs, just raise them "for balance". Now your winrate just went down.
    FYP
  9. #9

    Default Re: Slowplaying a big pair

    Quote Originally Posted by mcatdog
    Quote Originally Posted by badgers
    If the answer is small pairs, just raise them "for balance". Now your winrate just went down.
    FYP
    raise or fold them, just don't open limp vs. competent opponents.
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  10. #10
    rereading the thread we agree completely but you put it more thoroughly. I would have thought raising from all PPs from all positions was standard in 6max though.
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  11. #11
    open raising pocket pairs from any position is fine but limping behind donks in late position with 44 is optimal imo
  12. #12
    I open-limp some hands in really weak games in position against absolute fish, and I also would do so in a (very rare) game against mostly strong, aggressive opposition. I realize this is anathema to the raise-or-fold mentality of online grinding, but I think in both scenarios there are good reasons to do it. I hasten to add though, that 95% of the tables you will sit at are neither very weak nor very strong, so you should be raising most of the time that you're first in the pot.

    In answer to your question, Badgers - to balance your other limps. Again that would only be against really strong opposition - smart people who are aggressive and will play a lot of hands with you - where there's a good reason to mix up your play.

    But that's all an ancillary point. Here I'm not concerned about my opposition in that sense - just wondering if I make more, less, or about the same money over the long haul in this type of situation (aggro player on the button, TAgg who is opening up in the blinds) by doing what I did. I'd really like to throw some math at it rather than just guess, or fall back on "always raising = good winrate and therefore just raise."
  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by freechus9
    Also l/rr is AA/KK almost 90% of the time, so your hand is ultra transparent.
    Not a concern if they're not getting drawing odds. Worst case scenario is that they fold and I "only" take down the small pot they've put together; otherwise even one call is a mistake, and makes me money in the long run. My hand plays itself after that because I'm shoving or check-raise shoving almost all flops, and profitably. If I'm lucky he has a medium or big pair himself and shoves over because he thinks I'm full of shit. Which is not so improbable - limp/reraising with any pocket pair is getting increasingly common at 50 NL (although often it's easy to spot because it will be an OVER-limp and then a re-raise - don't know why but I've been seeing a fair amount of that with stupid holdings like pocket fives).
  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by mcatdog
    If I do open-limp a small pair, it's because the people at my table are so clueless that they won't realize that I'm set mining and against people that bad, I don't need to balance my play.
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  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by badgers
    Quote Originally Posted by mcatdog
    If I do open-limp a small pair, it's because the people at my table are so clueless that they won't realize that I'm set mining and against people that bad, I don't need to balance my play.
    I read that when the other guy wrote it, thanks. Are you guys so locked into dogma that you're not interested in confronting even vaguely untraditional ideas? I see very good players in very tough games (on TV, online, you name it) limping all the time... why are they doing that? Did they miss last Sunday's session at the Church of Always Raise When First Into The Pot?

    This reminds me, I am seriously considering opening a prop bet with someone to see if I can turn a profit at 50 NL without ever putting in the first raise. I am quite interested in seeing if it's possible.
  16. #16
    sorry i'm tired i meant to add QFT tht was the whole reason for me reposting.

    The only way you would win your prop bet is if all your opponents sucked really badly postflop, which they probs do but there are more optimal ways of exploiting that.

    The problem with limping UTG if there are good players (this is something I wrote a wile ago and I'm just cut/pasting)


    For PPs, it's something I've been thinking about a lot lately. I think the only way to balance limping small PPs is to also limp/raise large PPs as you do. The problems with this for me are

    - Obviously you will occasionally be playing with KK+ in an unraised pot which is not desirable.
    - Limp/ call is a very readable line in EP and decent players will not pay off your sets as much as you would like.
    - Limp/ raise is becoming a typical and readable line for KK+ UTG.
    - Your limp/ raise range is completely unbalanced and consists only of KK+ at the moment
    - The biggest issue for me is that it allows decent players to play perfectly against you. If I was on the button and you had limped from EP, I would raise with a very wide range, obviously folding most of it to a reraise, and cbet a lot of flops. This also makes your call of my raise unprofitable because it would take something very special for me to stack off. There is no way to exploit a raise UTG in this manner.
    -Something else I have only just considered is that this also keeps your raising range something like AQ+, TT-QQ, which is a very narrow range and potentially exploitable.


    Basically for you to make limping UTG optimal you have to be ridic good at range balancing (including l/rr) and it's a complete pain largely a waste of effort imo. (some of that paragraph above is probs bs i wrote it a while ago...) someone correct me if they see anything dumb...
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  17. #17
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    ahhhh, the good ol limping UTG argument. where's pythonic at?

    limping utg
    i really think we should make a sticky or have a good in depth article debating this

  18. #18
    The above is only for when you are facing good players btw. As you can see, when ppl start to exploit you limping becomes a pain in the ass. When no one's going to exploit you there's no reason not to limp a completely unbalanced range.
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  19. #19
    I agree with much of that, actually, but you're focusing too much on my off-hand remark about balancing. The players in this hand weren't especially good and I was NOT limping to balance, but rather because I thought I might stand to gain more by it. Button was aggressive but mostly when he was first in; between his general cautiousness and my nitty stats at that table, he wasn't playing a lot of pots with me or 3-betting me ever. The guy in the SB was really confusing me with a spurt of aggression after a long run of being a predictable, fairly weak nit. Given that I think both of these guys would get out of the way to a first raise from me with most of their starting hands, is it more or less profitable to try to get one of them to steal just so I can come over the top?

    Just consider the button in isolation: his stats were 31/31/4, steal % of about 50. I was raising rarely and he had folded to all of my previous raises (as you can see from his stats, he was a 3-bet or fold type when someone else opened). He was a religious pot-sized raiser - 1.75 if first in, 2.25 if there was a limper. He seemed to steal only slightly less with a limper in front - you can probably shave 10% off. So let's say that if I raise, he folds 90% of the time and 3-bets the rest (which I think is high, but it'll do); and if I limp, he raises 40% of the time and folds the rest. If I raise and he 3-bets me that gets more money in the pot than the limp/raise does, but then again if he has a 3-betting hand I'm probably getting a lot of his money no matter what, given that he had never 3-betted me before.

    That's some kind of start on figuring out if this particular table texture makes it better to do one or the other. I'm a little too sleepy to start working the math right now, but you see what I'm after. This interests me more than the philosophical discussion about open-limping in general.

    But if someone wants to run that prop bet, hit me.
  20. #20
    I agree with Deanglow's posts that the only 'slowplaying' of big pairs you should really be doing is flatting big pairs to raises, instead of 3-betting them.

    I tend to flat big pairs in a few spots. As a few people have pointed out, if I haven't 3-bet them yet and I think that will look too strong (though I think at higher levels, the first 3-bet actually gets less respect at times, since they expect that the first time you do it will be with junk in position).

    Flatting pairs on the button is also good if there is a compulsive squeezer in the blinds.

    I also flat big pairs, if I have spiked a few flops against villain recently and have raised his flop cont bets several times with legitimate hands. In this case, flatting an overpair gives us a deceptive hand to raise the flop with again, and he will likely get fed up with all our flop raising and probably make some play at us.

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