Nut flush draw - 3bet pot - confusing spot

-Villiain in this hand is nothing special. Taggish type, folds to 3bet around 60%. He has an AF around 3.3ish
-no crazy dynamic this session
-in general a pretty low WTSD and low won at sd, 24/45 or something



$2/$4 No Limit Holdem
4 Players
Hand Conversion Powered by weaktight.com

Stacks:
CO ($400)
BTN ($431)
SB ($2,054.20)
Hero (BB) ($407.30)

Pre-Flop: ($6, 4 players) Hero is BB
1 fold, BTN raises to $10, 1 fold, Hero raises to $35, BTN calls $25

Flop: ($72, 2 players)
Hero bets $50, BTN calls $50

Turn: ($172, 2 players)
Hero ponders..

b/f $92 or something like that.

Originally Posted by IowaSkinsFan

b/f $92 or something like that.

$92 would commit us imo...

I really just want to c/f but that seems weak. I think he will check back a very decent amount.

Originally Posted by pocketfours

$92 would commit us imo...

I really just want to c/f but that seems weak. I think he will check back a very decent amount.

Pretty much my thoughts when Griffey showed me this.

Really like c/f unless I have a super clean image, or if this guy floats these flops a lot (even then, he hit just about anything that floated besides KJ QK)

Could we c/call? I don't like betting either.

I'd only 3b preflop if I was sure to be called by worse or I would fold out better. And I don't think better is folding.... If you believe you'll most frequently be called by worse, great. Then on the flop I check-fold. Because the worse hands we believed were calling us preflop are salivating over this flop and the fact that they have position over us and the fact that we narrowed our range by 3-betting. And if villain checks back the flop, it says A LOT more about their hand than if they call a cbet.

cf flop ldo. as played never folding, could check or bet

Yah I bet assuming a good chunk of his flop peeling range are hands that we're ahead of (QJ, KJ, KQ type stuff), and the fact we had the bd nut fd.

I c/f flop a good chunk of the time coz they're no real good run outs for our hand. As played I hate b/f'ing so much equity and i dont like c/c'ing either coz its hard to get paid off when we hit OOP. Tough spot, I dun mind betting $65 and folding to a shove i guess. Sick thing is he will probably check back all his one pair or even two pair hands here (sometimes). I like c/f'ing best though outta all the options. If we check/call a bet where we get 3-1 direct pot odds i guess that cant be too bad either.

Originally Posted by nutsinho

cf flop ldo. as played never folding, could check or bet

c/f flop with backdoors, overs, (and Ace hi) vs non-nit in BTN vs BB scenario?

I think I'm cbet/shoving it on this board, and c/f any turn that doesn't give us more outs

edit : I suck at reading boards lol, but that would be my comment if board was T92hh instead of T96hh! Better to edit than delete amirite

Different idea. Shoving turn gives max fold equity. Only getting called by better but we still have outs for nuts. Any thoughts on this?

Originally Posted by paratrooper99

Different idea. Shoving turn gives max fold equity. Only getting called by better but we still have outs for nuts. Any thoughts on this?

Our outs vs his turn calling range are greatly reduced coz he either a flush, which takes out 2 of our outs and makes our 4 str8 draw outs dead. Either he has a set, which takes out 1 of our outs. He could have QJ which take out a 3 of our outs ( maybe more if he has a heart).

Also since ur turn ship will be 2x pot he might not continue past the flop with hands that will eventually beat by the river ( like weak one pair hands or hands that might turn something good and call again)

Originally Posted by griffey24

Yah I bet assuming a good chunk of his flop peeling range are hands that we're ahead of (QJ, KJ, KQ type stuff).

It doesn't really matter that we are ahead some- we cannot check/call or check/shove many turns vs his range.

Arguing that his flop calling range is weak is productive though. It is a great board, in a vacuum, to triple allin when flatted vs a solid opponent, because his range mainly consists of weak one pair hands and weakish draws that may make weak top pair. However, I would not recommend that as a default play vs a familiar player pool for various reasons...

we definitely need some kind of c/fold range on this board given how many combos of overcards we are going to hold and how many nut hands and draws with great equity and implied odds opponent is going to hold given standard assumptions about preflop play. should AhQs be in our c/f range? I'm not sure to be honest...

on the one hand an heart/A/Q gives us a profitable turn situation. On the other hand if the flop goes chk/chk any heart/A/Q gives us a profitable turn situation.

probably the single most important factor is how often and how thinly opponent bets the flop and whether he over or under bluffs and semibluffs the flop. players who check back a hand like KQ or A3 with any frequency are ideal to c/f against and players who bet them are ideal to b/f against.

Originally Posted by sauce123

we definitely need some kind of c/fold range on this board given how many combos of overcards we are going to hold and how many nut hands and draws with great equity and implied odds opponent is going to hold given standard assumptions about preflop play. should AhQs be in our c/f range? I'm not sure to be honest...

on the one hand an heart/A/Q gives us a profitable turn situation. On the other hand if the flop goes chk/chk any heart/A/Q gives us a profitable turn situation.

probably the single most important factor is how often and how thinly opponent bets the flop and whether he over or under bluffs and semibluffs the flop. players who check back a hand like KQ or A3 with any frequency are ideal to c/f against and players who bet them are ideal to b/f against.

brilliant..

Thinking about the notes that tehy would have on Griffey makes me think this is a C/F. I'm sure anyone that is playing him regular expects him to bet this card most of the time. The fact that he flatted pre OOP vs a guy that is going to barrel a high frequency may lead me to get a Ch/Ch turn with outs.

Originally Posted by sauce123

we definitely need some kind of c/fold range on this board given how many combos of overcards we are going to hold and how many nut hands and draws with great equity and implied odds opponent is going to hold given standard assumptions about preflop play. should AhQs be in our c/f range? I'm not sure to be honest...

on the one hand an heart/A/Q gives us a profitable turn situation. On the other hand if the flop goes chk/chk any heart/A/Q gives us a profitable turn situation.

probably the single most important factor is how often and how thinly opponent bets the flop and whether he over or under bluffs and semibluffs the flop. players who check back a hand like KQ or A3 with any frequency are ideal to c/f against and players who bet them are ideal to b/f against.

great post, ty

Originally Posted by pocketfours

$92 would commit us imo...

I really just want to c/f but that seems weak. I think he will check back a very decent amount.

I dont think he will check back ' a decent ammount' on the turn after calling a 3 bet preflop and calling your flop bet

The hands he call the flop with after calling a 3 bet are: floating hands(AK,AQ,), draws (QJ,KJ,KQ although we dont know this player a lot of players might raise and try and take it down with 2 overs and straight draw outs), possible trapping hands trying to keep pot small (AA,KK, sets although unlikely as sets will probably raise the fop) and made hands trying to get to showdown cheaply (55's)

I think all floating hands will always bet this hand on the turn as the board now seems so likely for it to be in his potential range after prev action(4 handed so wider?). Also I think Ak's Aq's and Aj's might fire here w/ or w/ out a heart. A real hand aka set might fire out to see where they are at/value. Straight w/ out hearts will want to protect their hand. Hands that check back might be the Aq's Aj's Ak's and 55's.

All of your options will give you a clearer insight as to their holdings. You could B/f small like $65/70 although i dont love this as floats may just feel you are weak and raise and strong hands like sets might also raise to protect their hand and its just a tricky spot after putting so much money in. You could c/c a medium/small sized bet if you feel you are going to get paid on the river by a Vbet from a set etc although it probably looks like your exact hand, a high ace with a heart that C bet the flop and is now c/c'ing the turn as hit a heart draw + str8 draw. . C/f isnt a bad play either(depending on the size of the bet). If you miss can you really call a bet on the river after you check (assuming you will)? It's hard to get paid on the river basically.

P.s First post. I suck.