KK on SB semi deep 200NL

My session stats is 18.6/13.2/af3.69/3bet2.6 751 hands

The villain is 20/16/af2.0/3bet9.1 52 hands

He was a complete unknown when this hand took place and I picked up some stats on him later.

Would you rather just flat preflop and play a smaller pot since he is unknown and we are deep?

As played, would you stack off here?

$1/$2 No Limit Hold'em Cash, 6 Players

Hero (SB): $390.50 (195.3 bb)
BB: $208.45 (104.2 bb)
UTG: $211.20 (105.6 bb)
MP: $582.71 (291.4 bb)
CO: $258.05 (129 bb)
BTN: $310.35 (155.2 bb)

Preflop: Hero is SB with K K
3 folds, BTN raises to $5, Hero raises to $36, BB folds, BTN raises to $75, Hero calls $39

Flop: ($152) 2 8 6 (2 players)
Hero checks, BTN bets $54, Hero ???

3bet sizing is terrible

his small 4bet is even scarier because of your 3bet sizing, but I'd just 5bet shove at that point as he's unknown

since you got to see the flop, now I'd c/shove

there's no reason to include his stats since he was unknown at the time of the hand

If you haven't already, you should download pokerstove

Text results appended to pokerstove.txt

8,910 games 0.000 secs 1,782,000 games/sec

Board: 8c 6c 2c
Dead:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 40.752% 37.22% 03.54% { KcKd }
Hand 1: 59.248% 55.71% 03.54% { KK+, QhQs, AcKd, AcTd }


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Text results appended to pokerstove.txt

7,920 games 0.000 secs 1,584,000 games/sec

Board: 8c 6c 2c
Dead:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 38.813% 34.84% 03.98% { KcKd }
Hand 1: 61.187% 57.21% 03.98% { KK+, QhQs, AcKd }


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surely you'd include other combos of AcKx right, and likely all combos of QQ?

i think one very important factor in this spot is the fact that it's SB vs BTN..

i dont like the 3bet sizing pre either, at all. his 4bet seems kinda scary though, but people definitely do some crazy bluffy stuff when they know ranges are wide. He could bluff to $75 and still easily fold to a shove pre right. Ie some people make these bluffy plays with any Ax blocker hand

based of of this and the other hand you posted i'd highly suggest moving down stakes.

Can't shove here fast enough.

Not super-excited to be playing for 2 buy-ins in this spot, but meh sometimes big pots happen.

prolly c/c'ing here most of the time and his flop betsizing makes me more inclined to do so. And c/c'ing turn on any card. If turn goes check check, riv decision depends on the turn and riv card and how you think it effects his frequencies, (sometimes c/cing and sometimes shipping). If you decide to ship it on river and he folds, note it, note what the texture was/ what the turn and riv card were and what you think he folded. Then if your confident enough in your reads you can reverse float in 4b pots and take it away on rivs. Boom!

Originally Posted by AnTman_69

And c/c'ing turn on any card.

Are you check/calling these cards?


But yeah, I guess we're far enough ahead of the bottom of his range here to let him draw to induce a turn bet.

that is some impressive poker thinking antman, I wish I could come up with exploitative strategies on that level!

I still see the arguments for c/shove though.. it's also about getting max value from his worse made hands and draws that might not put more money in the pot if they don't like the turn/river cards.

questions: how much of his range is spazz underpairs/draws versus pure air bluffs? how often does he continue his bluff and shove on the turn/river and does he always check behind his club draws on future streets if he misses?

yes we are usually WA/WB and if the pot were smaller I'd be inclined to c/c as well, but with 120bb in the pot already I think c/jamming is at least nearly as good as c/c. A fourth club could scare villain into folding the times he has smaller non club overpairs, though this may only be 10% of his weighted range.

what do you think?

Originally Posted by Vi-Zer0Skill

yes we are usually WA/WB and if the pot were smaller I'd be inclined to c/c as well, but with 120bb in the pot already I think c/jamming is at least nearly as good as c/c. A fourth club could scare villain into folding the times he has smaller non club overpairs, though this may only be 10% of his weighted range.

what do you think?

the smaller non club over pairs probably aren't calling a shove anyways. c/c >>>>>>>> c/j for the simple reason that people don't usually call jams with bluffs.

would you also 3bet to 36$ with other hands in your range except KK+? Seems horrible either way, just make it 20. Also when deeper you prob wanna keep your ranges polarized to make it easier to play postflop. You also might want to play a bit more aggro pre, looking at your stats it seems really easy to play against you, and I'd be surprised if villain did this preflop with anything other than AA. After the flop his range looks like AcAx about 75% of the time

If you wanna stack off the best way to do it is to c/c flop because it's the best flop you can possibly get (normally-not when villains range is AA), and it's the best way to get money from whatever small % of air he has.

Seems like the perfect flop to c/c.

How are you deep and he is unknown?

Originally Posted by pocketfours

How are you deep and he is unknown?

He must have won a big pot when he just sat down and I didn't see it.

Pretty ridiculous to use this sizing pre, particularly against an unknown. I suppose fold to the 4bet is all the advice I can think of for this hand.

Originally Posted by pocketfours

Pretty ridiculous to use this sizing pre, particularly against an unknown. I suppose fold to the 4bet is all the advice I can think of for this hand.

I understand your reasoning here and I'm sure you're not getting yourself in this spot like ever. Hypothetically speaking tho, say you somehow misclicked pre, do you actually fold to the 4bet?

I only ask because I'd have a huge problem folding here. Can we narrow villains range down to KK+? Are we folding even assuming QQ+ but weighed toward the top of that range?

Originally Posted by Alexos

would you also 3bet to 36$ with other hands in your range except KK+? Seems horrible either way, just make it 20. Also when deeper you prob wanna keep your ranges polarized to make it easier to play postflop. You also might want to play a bit more aggro pre, looking at your stats it seems really easy to play against you, and I'd be surprised if villain did this preflop with anything other than AA. After the flop his range looks like AcAx about 75% of the time

If you wanna stack off the best way to do it is to c/c flop because it's the best flop you can possibly get (normally-not when villains range is AA), and it's the best way to get money from whatever small % of air he has.

Well, my 3bet size can vary from small to big but here I 3bet big because of his stack size and I was oop. I thought I wanted to play this hand for stacks and I wanted to bring down the SPR as much as I can but yes if you get 4bet then as gross as that is, you are only getting 4bet by AA, probably... I learned this 3betting big concept from a pro and his reason was that when you 3bet big they begin to think that you have AK and they stack off on any low board with a pair. However, he was talking about a weak player in general so against an unknown like this guy, it's a risky play I think.

Originally Posted by supa

I understand your reasoning here and I'm sure you're not getting yourself in this spot like ever. Hypothetically speaking tho, say you somehow misclicked pre, do you actually fold to the 4bet?

I only ask because I'd have a huge problem folding here. Can we narrow villains range down to KK+? Are we folding even assuming QQ+ but weighed toward the top of that range?

Yeah I'd fold if I did this by mistake somehow lol. I can't put an unknown on queens here very often at all.

Originally Posted by SuperDonkey

Well, my 3bet size can vary from small to big but here I 3bet big because of his stack size and I was oop. I thought I wanted to play this hand for stacks and I wanted to bring down the SPR as much as I can but yes if you get 4bet then as gross as that is, you are only getting 4bet by AA, probably... I learned this 3betting big concept from a pro and his reason was that when you 3bet big they begin to think that you have AK and they stack off on any low board with a pair. However, he was talking about a weak player in general so against an unknown like this guy, it's a risky play I think.

Sounds like you answered your own question.

results

Villain had AA and he bricked after c/shoving flop obv...

you're almost right, you forgot to specify AcAx though. Can't blame you it's been a while since you played poker but you still got it :P

The idea that people will think this dumb 3bet is AK is flawed. It looks like QQ+ to me. I'm currently at 10nl. Point is, if a 10nl bonk is putting you on QQ+ here, why would you expect a 200nl unknown to put you on AK and then spew the flop with a small pair?

As played, yeah fold pre to 4bet. His range is now AA imo.

Originally Posted by Alexos

results

$1/$2 No Limit Hold'em Cash, 6 Players

Hero (SB): $390.50 (195.3 bb)
BB: $208.45 (104.2 bb)
UTG: $211.20 (105.6 bb)
MP: $582.71 (291.4 bb)
CO: $258.05 (129 bb)
BTN: $310.35 (155.2 bb)

Preflop: Hero is SB with K K
3 folds, BTN raises to $5, Hero raises to $36, BB folds, BTN raises to $75, Hero calls $39

Flop: ($152) 2 8 6 (2 players)
Hero checks, BTN bets $54, Hero raises to $315.50 and is all-in, BTN calls $181.35 and is all-in

Turn: ($622.70) 6 (2 players, 2 are all-in)
River: ($622.70) 4 (2 players, 2 are all-in)

Results: $622.70 pot ($3 rake)
Final Board: 2 8 6 6 4
Hero mucked K K and lost (-$310.35 net)
BTN showed A A and won $619.70 ($309.35 net)

Yea, he would bet bigger without the