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Full house facing river shove

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  1. #1

    Default Full house facing river shove

    Playing at the usual 25/50 game.

    Folded to Villain at the cut-off (good loose aggressive, steals from LP a lot, showed down 5-3 in the button and flopped two-pair against overpair once, and folded to a three-bet once, villain has not been three-betted that much over the course of the session, but I kinda played with him a lot before and he folds to being three-betted from late position a couple of times).

    Villain: Stack ~ 10000, raises to 200 (villain always opens for 4 times BB whether or not there are limpers).

    Hero: Stack ~ 12000, at BB with 7c-7h, Hero three-bets to 700. Villain cold calls
    Pot after pre-flop: 1425

    Flop comes: Kc-Jh-7d rainbow. Hero leads out for 800, villain flats.

    Pot before the turn: 3025
    Turn: Qh. Hero lead out once more for 2000, villain flats again.

    Pot before the river: 7025
    River: Kh.

    Final Board Kc-Jh-7d-Qh-Kh
    Hero bets 3500, villain shoves for his remaining 6k+

    hero?

    1) Is three-betting in this spot okay? I would've probably fold to a four-bet but the three-bet cold call is really annoying.

    2) I put his cold calling range to K-10+, A-x+, any pair. Idon't think he'd cold call super light; but then we've played before and he knows my game and I know his game as well, he'd probably think that I think he's stealing and I am three betting him light. I rarely saw him 4-bet so i assume he'd only be 4-betting with premiums or he could be balancing his range and cold-calling with premiums as well.

    3) What really confused me is him flat calling the flop and the turn. If he had such a hand like K-K, K-Q, K-J, Q-Q, J-J or K-7 or probably even A-10 or random A-x hearts, I would've seen a raise somewhere. The only logical reason for this (and the line i am putting him on) is he probably thinks that I would follow through with my 3-bet thru all the three streets if there's an opportunity and he is trapping me with his monster OR he is planning to call me down with a marginal hand like top pair or in our case, trips on the river.

    His river shove makes me take the other option that he has been trapping all along and he's got the absolute nuts on the river. I also do not have any blockers so I really think that his range has nut hands in it. It seems illogical to shove with something like A-A or A-K on a board like this because they are merely bluff catchers unless...he knows he's beat and shoves with K-x (except K-J, K-Q, K-7), A-10 or Ah-xh hoping that I'd fold the 7th nuts.

    4) Would a turn overbet or check-raise be a better move?

    5) The pot before the river is big enough for a lead out shove overbet from hero, would that have been a better move instead of the half pot value bet?


    GL at the tables my friends.
    Last edited by thefishtank; 08-05-2011 at 01:17 AM.
  2. #2
    I wouldn't hate flatting preflop. Given stacks I feel like we might end up playing a big pot OOP pretty often.

    As played, I think this is a pretty easy fold vs a cold calling range. This board is a disaster, and we lose to a ton of different hands.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jay-Z
    I'm a couple hands down and I'm tryin' to get back
    I gave the other grip, I lost a flip for five stacks
  3. #3
    Can t see a bluff here at all
  4. #4
    Your gonna see KQ and KJ a lot here.
  5. #5
    check decide riv? hard to get looked up by worse w/o crazy history and could induce some thinner vbets and bluffs
  6. #6
    Was the plan here to bet/fold river?
    He really can't gauge your hand here. Your hand looks like AK alot and considering the King hits the river, he likely just doesnt believe your story. I would call in this situation.
  7. #7
    this is definitely a call. The flat calling was likely because he flopped top pair probably AK, hit trips on the river expects maybe u flopped two pair but was no longer worried once he saw he rivered trips. I would call. The reason he wasnt folding preflop was because he probably had AK and was fearing that you had a pocket pair maybe something like sixes and he wanted to see the flop. AK makes a lot of sense in that situation i make the call
  8. #8
    1. I dont mind calling pre just coz the stacks are deep enough and since u mentioned he's a good reg he will call IP a decent amount of the time, especially since ur deep, setting up some unnecessary spew potential postflop. I would 3b this particular spot against this type of opponent with shallower stacks maybe half of the time fold 1/4th of the time, only if there are no limpers or donks in the BB and call teh other 1/4. Deeper stacks i would alternate my calling and 3 betting frequency.

    3. I agree with Renton about seeing KJ and KQ here alot.

    4. I like the turn sizing and I dont think you should ever be checking here without the nuts, just because it hits ur perceived as well as his and so he will be calling and since ur pretty far ahead to most things a bet for value is essential.

    5. I thought about that as well but i guess it comes down to how often you will be missing value as compared to how often you would potentially get raised all in by a worse hand, or bluffed. Given the sizing i dont think he expects u to fold, and if hes half way decent he wont raise a backdoor flush for value here thinking you will call it off with trips. I would have gone with something smaller though, maybe 1/3 pot because the ur perceived range is heavily skewed to value ont eh king pairing and so his raising range will be heavily skewed to value and hence very few bluffs. u could extract from the most from the lowest end of his range by betting lesser and losing the least to the highest end.

    Hope this helped.
  9. #9
    As I posted previously, he is going to have KQ or KJ a lot here. If he gets to turn with KJ or KQ he will almost never raise. Why would he raise? He only folds out bluffs and single pair hands that he dominates and gets it in vs. the part of your range that is sets and turned straights. That being said, a small minority of players are so bad that they may raise KJ/KQ on turn. What was the ultimate resolution of the hand?
  10. #10
    gabe's Avatar
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    did you bet the river because you thought he would hero call 3500 with AQ? the only hand he probably calls with is AK and i bet he bets that himself if u check, same with KTs i guess
  11. #11
    Interesting, so you would advocate a c/c as a default line in this exact spot?
  12. #12
    gabe's Avatar
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    villain has less than potsized left so i think hes probably sticking it in with worse more when we check than when we bet. only conditions where betting is better is if the youve seen them check behind in obvious value spots or if you have SUPER monkey/barrel image
  13. #13
    Tom1559's Avatar
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    Very interesting post. I cant see how you can do anything except fold when it gets to the River. The shove is interesting. Is he trying to make you think he does not have it to get you call. I have him down as KQ and he is thinking if he raises you will fold it anyway so lets try and get them all in by hinting at a bluff. Great read.
    Scottish Cowboy
  14. #14
    I think you played the hand perfectly. But consider that you have to call 3K into a pot if 20K, so the pott odds are 1:6,66. You have the 7th nut hand. Why did you play that hand like that and invest too much money if you were folding a shove in the river? If you had that plan in your head, then you should have bet less money. You also have to consider how the villian plays postflop, is he aggressive? passive? does he search draws in every hand?. The river is certainly a call since you have already invested more than 70% of your stack. That's at least what I would do, but you know better than me since I don't play high stakes.

    One more thing: If you are pretty sure that he had KJ or KQ don't you think he would have reraised the turn instead of just calling? the river could have become very dangerous for him, if any A T or 9 came
    Last edited by matiusaa; 12-17-2013 at 07:43 PM.
  15. #15
    I can't see us ever being good here unless this villain has big bluffs in him, but calling two streets suggests he has showdown value, so why would he turn his hand into a bluff? This isn't AK, the guy who says this is definitely a call is, quite frankly, talking out of his arse. It's his 2nd post here in over a year. Gabe and griff are much more on the ball here.

    I probably make the call, but that's because I'm not good enough to make this fold very often. We have a boat ldo. But it's an underboat and is not good as often as we'd like to think when facing a river shove vs a competent reg who stationed his way to river. We don't beat any boats in his range, and if he's weaker than a boat, he's bluffing with a hand he liked enough to call two streets. It's a clear fold in theory, I can see that. But to actually fold requires discipline, something I'm lacking.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong
  16. #16
    lol get me replying to 2 yr old thread.
    Quote Originally Posted by wufwugy View Post
    ongies gonna ong

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