100BB effective, low (but not micro) stakes
Standard ABC leaky TAG reg opens to 4BB UTG+1
folded round to me and I call on the button with
the blinds fold
Flop comes :Ah::Kh:
TAG bets the standard amount
What's my play here and why?
12-06-2007 04:35 PM
#1
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A common awkward spot100BB effective, low (but not micro) stakes |
12-06-2007 04:50 PM
#2
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Raise - because he doesn't necessarily have anything on this board and if he has a lower pair he will be very scared of this board. | |
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12-06-2007 04:55 PM
#3
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Good timing: http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...oker-63905.htm | |
12-06-2007 05:02 PM
#4
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i would probably just call | |
12-06-2007 05:12 PM
#5
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Raise because he's not shoving you tards. | |
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12-06-2007 05:44 PM
#6
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So we raise, he calls and we end up on blank turns with pot or so behind.. he checks to us. |
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12-06-2007 05:47 PM
#7
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12-06-2007 05:51 PM
#8
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raise your monster | |
12-06-2007 06:00 PM
#9
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12-06-2007 06:46 PM
#10
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12-06-2007 06:48 PM
#11
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im not at all denying that our hand is very strong, and taht raising is a profitable play. | |
12-06-2007 07:11 PM
#12
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12-06-2007 07:28 PM
#13
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by the way, all advocates of raise, tell me what your raising range is, and then tell me why that range is tough for villain to play against. | |
12-06-2007 07:52 PM
#14
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umm renton wins guys. call is good | |
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12-07-2007 12:17 AM
#15
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12-07-2007 01:10 AM
#16
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raise. | |
12-07-2007 01:27 AM
#17
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a+ analysis guys. | |
12-07-2007 01:39 AM
#18
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Renton, you're worried about balanced hand ranges against a guy that's just not that good. Against more competent players I agree that a call is better. IMO a tagfish is not going to read well enough to call here. I know when I was a shitty(er) tag I would fold this without AK and not consider what he was actually representing. | |
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12-07-2007 01:51 AM
#19
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galapogos, even if you completely remove the range balancing factors from the equation, calling is still the better play for VALUE. | |
12-07-2007 01:52 AM
#20
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Fair enough. | |
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12-07-2007 03:24 AM
#21
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I call | |
12-07-2007 03:47 AM
#22
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Raise | |
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12-07-2007 03:53 AM
#23
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12-07-2007 03:59 AM
#24
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12-07-2007 04:18 AM
#25
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Ax Kx AK AA KK 33 22-QQ flush draws gutshots and air. | |
12-07-2007 04:20 AM
#26
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oh yeah, and that range is tough to play against because its wide and balanced, and im capable of bluff/semibluff raising the turn with parts of the range, value raising, continuing to calldown with marginal hands, continuing to slowplay big hands, and turning decent hands into bluffs. | |
12-07-2007 04:46 AM
#27
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12-07-2007 05:00 AM
#28
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12-07-2007 06:43 AM
#29
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The biggest issue I have with calling is that flush draws is obvious and ours is only 5 high. | |
12-07-2007 06:53 AM
#30
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calling is no more of an obvious sign of a fd than raising is. Also, the fact that its a baby flush draw makes it less of a raise, since if villain has QhJh or JhTh thats a disaster for us. | |
12-07-2007 06:56 AM
#31
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It's as much of a disaster if we call and he has any higher flush draw. We're not getting away if we hit a lower flush and he's not check/folding the turn. | |
12-07-2007 07:04 AM
#32
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12-07-2007 07:15 AM
#33
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Im with renton. AA/KK/AK are all going to come over us again if we raise and lower PPs are probably giving up on the turn anyway. Why turn a good flop into a coinflip (or worse). | |
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12-07-2007 07:55 AM
#34
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12-07-2007 08:05 AM
#35
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12-07-2007 08:30 AM
#36
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so when we try to take it down on the turn aren't we just giving him a free card? Hands he c/f the turn with would fold the flop anyway and we don't get any more money in the pot... |
12-07-2007 09:11 AM
#37
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12-07-2007 10:51 AM
#38
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12-07-2007 10:58 AM
#39
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Minsim, | |
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12-07-2007 11:31 AM
#40
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12-07-2007 11:56 AM
#41
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12-07-2007 02:14 PM
#42
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12-07-2007 02:16 PM
#43
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12-07-2007 02:28 PM
#44
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I'm coming around to Renton's side. We raise this flop with a very small range and only get it AI when we're behind, I'm with you there Renton. However, if we never raise this kind of hand on the flop, or weaker draws, we have zero balance for 33 and A3. You could argue that we don't even need to raise those hands though because flush draws make up an infinitessimal part of his range utg, and I would have a hard time disagreeing. So we may never want to raise this flop. The only downside I see is that we'll occasionally give up on the turn to second barrels from hands we could have gotten to fold on the flop with a raise. Good thread. | |
12-07-2007 02:31 PM
#45
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I am baffled, if you can be aggressive and not be blown off a draw you should do it. This is one of the perfect examples of this. This is definetely not an exception. | |
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12-07-2007 02:43 PM
#46
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The best argument for raising imo, is that you get hands you're behind, but have no implied odds against, to fold (QQ-66). | |
12-07-2007 02:54 PM
#47
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12-07-2007 03:04 PM
#48
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12-07-2007 03:05 PM
#49
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This thread is tilting me | |
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12-07-2007 03:06 PM
#50
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12-07-2007 03:08 PM
#51
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12-07-2007 03:13 PM
#52
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12-07-2007 03:16 PM
#53
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It's not even that calling here is that bad, its the fact that some of you can rationalize that calling could remotely be better than raising means you don't understand poker well enough to beat higher games. Sorry to come off like an arrogant douche, but this thread is ridiculous, I'm not going to post in it anymore, I've given all my arguments. | |
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12-07-2007 03:17 PM
#54
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If anyone is arguing that raising your here is not a profitable play he/she is being ridiculous. | |
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12-07-2007 03:29 PM
#55
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12-07-2007 03:39 PM
#56
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12-07-2007 03:42 PM
#57
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Advocates for call: Lets say we call here, and turn blanks for us, and he fires again, whats our plan? | |
12-07-2007 03:48 PM
#58
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12-07-2007 03:48 PM
#59
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Ok just saw u said we shove over most turn bets...which I like. | |
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12-07-2007 04:00 PM
#60
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Okay i can't not respond to these new issues brought up. | |
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12-07-2007 04:03 PM
#61
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Oh btw i'm fairly sure if we float a low stakes opp isn't folding QQ/JJ for no reason other than its QQ/JJ. TT/99 are iffy. | |
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12-07-2007 04:06 PM
#62
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I think if we call flop and raise turn, we can get some bad aces to fold there for sure. | |
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12-07-2007 04:07 PM
#63
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continued: Whereas if we raise flop with these bad aces, our opponents will mostly put us on flush draws/bluff, and will keep calling us down. | |
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12-07-2007 04:08 PM
#64
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12-07-2007 04:09 PM
#65
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12-07-2007 04:14 PM
#66
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It means that since both options are close in EV there might be situations where you feel one has an edge over another, for any reason. Why are you being a douche though? | |
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12-07-2007 04:17 PM
#67
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12-07-2007 04:20 PM
#68
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Do you agree though, that a flop raise will make him less likely to fold AT/AJ than a turn raise (on a blank) ?? | |
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12-07-2007 04:22 PM
#69
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deleted double post | |
12-07-2007 04:22 PM
#70
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12-07-2007 04:26 PM
#71
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12-07-2007 04:31 PM
#72
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So basically, he folds 95% of his double barreling range to a turn raise...he probably doesnt even have odds to call with a flush draw that isnt JhTh,QhJh,QhTh....and this is still less EV than raising flop. hmmm | |
12-07-2007 04:33 PM
#73
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12-07-2007 04:51 PM
#74
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12-07-2007 04:52 PM
#75
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