Comments: Sauce123's Simple Guide to Beating SHNL

Originally Posted by sauce123

in the above example postflop wise- the std line for KQ on this board would be to check/fold, or to bet/fold if u decided to make "a play" as this is a rainbow flop (we would check/fold this flop 90% if it came sooted).

Around what % of time are you "making a play" on the rainbow flop with overcards? What about with an underpair? How much does the type of opponent and how light he calls reraises and stacks off in RR pots affect these percentages?

I think checking coordinated flops 90% of the time is a mistake against certain players. There are some players who call 3bets super light (any pair, any broadway, any SC) but then get out of dodge unless they flop top pair+ or a relatively strong draw. Once I identify these type of players I'm cbetting virtually every flop in a RR pot.

Also going back to zeroskill's suggestion to check-raise KQ, what's your guys' opinions about check-shoving against aggressive opponents in RR pots sometimes with draws. unpaired AK AQ, AA-KK, and occasionally 2pair+? I think this balances out nicely all the times we check/fold, and you'll fold the other guy out quite a bit and generally have decent equity or your opponent drawing very slim when you get called. I used to use this play a lot with seemingly OK results, but mostly with AK AQ and draws, so it probably was not balanced very well. I don't use it so much anymore though as I don't really like playing my strong overpairs like that (I like to give the other guy the chance to be the one shoving as they'll generally put the money in lighter that way and sometimes on(semi)bluffs), and because it's high variance.

balance is sweet

Anyone who have a tread/link that explain opening range, I can´t figure out if it is a standart set of starting hands or it change from player to player. depending on tight/loose weak/and so on !

thx.

Originally Posted by panamaniaq

Anyone who have a tread/link that explain opening range, I can´t figure out if it is a standart set of starting hands or it change from player to player. depending on tight/loose weak/and so on !

thx.

Originally Posted by sauce123

Preflop Play:

1. Open AK, AQs, 22-AA UTG.
Add AQ0, AJs, KQs, ATs UTG+1
Add AJo, KQo, QJs, JTs, KTs, KJs, T9s, 98s, 87s, QTs, in CO (you can add a few more from button range here as things progress)
Add AT0, 76s, 65s, 54s, T8s, J9s, A9s-A2s, 97s, 86s, 75s, QJ0, JT0 from Btn

Originally Posted by martindcx1e

Originally Posted by panamaniaq

Anyone who have a tread/link that explain opening range, I can´t figure out if it is a standart set of starting hands or it change from player to player. depending on tight/loose weak/and so on !

thx.

Originally Posted by sauce123

Preflop Play:

1. Open AK, AQs, 22-AA UTG.
Add AQ0, AJs, KQs, ATs UTG+1
Add AJo, KQo, QJs, JTs, KTs, KJs, T9s, 98s, 87s, QTs, in CO (you can add a few more from button range here as things progress)
Add AT0, 76s, 65s, 54s, T8s, J9s, A9s-A2s, 97s, 86s, 75s, QJ0, JT0 from Btn

this is a good start, but you need to figure out ranges by the style your comfortable/profitable playing.

It ain't my forum, but stick-o-matic until Smackinyaup sees it and adds it to the 6max strategy sticky. :]

OK, after trying to employ this for a bit there are a few things I've realized.

1. Good lord it's easier to play in position
2. 3bet pots OOP just plain suck to be in
3. Players call way too many 3bets with weak holdings
4. A lot of players opening ranges are the same UTG as they are in LP
5. Potting the flop and shoving the turn gets a ton of folds
6. This strat guide is probably perfect for the 100 or 200 nl games but for the 25 or 50 nl games, meh, I do not think it's exactly necessary to beat those games.

I could write out the "Eupho method for pwning 25 and 50NL but getting absolutely owned at 100NL" I've more or less perfected it.

Originally Posted by bigspenda73

OK, after trying to employ this for a bit there are a few things I've realized.

1. Good lord it's easier to play in position
2. 3bet pots OOP just plain suck to be in
3. Players call way too many 3bets with weak holdings
4. A lot of players opening ranges are the same UTG as they are in LP
5. Potting the flop and shoving the turn gets a ton of folds
6. This strat guide is probably perfect for the 100 or 200 nl games but for the 25 or 50 nl games, meh, I do not think it's exactly necessary to beat those games.

Probably all of these are correct.

Originally Posted by euphoricism

I could write out the "Eupho method for pwning 25 and 50NL but getting absolutely owned at 100NL" I've more or less perfected it.

i can co-author this, and i think Anosmic would be good as a consultant.

lol

Originally Posted by IowaSkinsFan

Originally Posted by bigspenda73

OK, after trying to employ this for a bit there are a few things I've realized.

1. Good lord it's easier to play in position
2. 3bet pots OOP just plain suck to be in
3. Players call way too many 3bets with weak holdings
4. A lot of players opening ranges are the same UTG as they are in LP
5. Potting the flop and shoving the turn gets a ton of folds
6. This strat guide is probably perfect for the 100 or 200 nl games but for the 25 or 50 nl games, meh, I do not think it's exactly necessary to beat those games.

Probably all of these are correct.

yea, because this strategy takes on weakness so often it definitely would have u playing like 25/20 at 25nl and 50nl where limping is super prevalent. i think it would also work there but it would hinge more on value betting and less on semibluffing.

i actually played a little 50nl and 100nl the other day and i think a tight strategy which takes full advantage of postition is the most profitable approach. (as in more isolating in position and less 3betting).

STICKIED!!!

nvm

Originally Posted by sauce123

i actually played a little 50nl and 100nl the other day and i think a tight strategy which takes full advantage of postition is the most profitable approach. (as in more isolating in position and less 3betting).

QFT at 50nl. Just playing position and isolating limpers > 3-betting like a monkey. I do 3-bet lighter than most at that level, but 3-betting too loose is just asking for sticky situations w/ all the loose passive players.

I also agree with the < 50NL stuff said. Though understanding why this strategy is as good as it is should help controlling your own game at any stake.

About the 3-betting 1/2 or 2/3 or whole raising range of your opponent, would you consider 22 be above AK in that range? Where is QJs or 46s placed? Kxs?

Isn't the difference in preflop raising range and 3-bet calling/4-betting range of most players wide enough and therefor our FE large enough that 3-betting any hand would be +EV as long as players don't adapt?
Do you know anything about a breaking point?

The guide tells us to call 3-bets with TT+, AK in position only. We should never call 3-bets OOP?
SC's are no part of our calling range, though Sauce in a comment above you put SC's in villains calling range.
Could you explain why we shouldn't be calling with them in position? (I'm still with this 25% hitting flop thing in my head)

The guide doesn't say anything about difference in 3-betting ranges in and out of position. Though 3-bet calling/4-bet ranges of villains usually differ IP and OOP.
Could you comment on the following thoughts;
- I am more inclined to call instead of 3-bet in position because there are a lot more ways to outplay villain in position.
- I am more inclined to 3-bet in position because villains 3-bet calling/4-betting range is tighter OOP so I have more FE.

Originally Posted by minSim

I also agree with the < 50NL stuff said. Though understanding why this strategy is as good as it is should help controlling your own game at any stake.

About the 3-betting 1/2 or 2/3 or whole raising range of your opponent, would you consider 22 be above AK in that range? Where is QJs or 46s placed? Kxs?

Isn't the difference in preflop raising range and 3-bet calling/4-betting range of most players wide enough and therefor our FE large enough that 3-betting any hand would be +EV as long as players don't adapt?
Do you know anything about a breaking point?

The guide tells us to call 3-bets with TT+, AK in position only. We should never call 3-bets OOP?
SC's are no part of our calling range, though Sauce in a comment above you put SC's in villains calling range.
Could you explain why we shouldn't be calling with them in position? (I'm still with this 25% hitting flop thing in my head)

The guide doesn't say anything about difference in 3-betting ranges in and out of position. Though 3-bet calling/4-bet ranges of villains usually differ IP and OOP.
Could you comment on the following thoughts;
- I am more inclined to call instead of 3-bet in position because there are a lot more ways to outplay villain in position.
- I am more inclined to 3-bet in position because villains 3-bet calling/4-betting range is tighter OOP so I have more FE.

22 is not better than AK, nuff said. look in ur and everyone else's database- the best poker hands r like AA KK QQ AKs JJ TT AKo 99 AQs 88 etc etc.... if u r playing poker for any amnt of money u should have a general idea of what hands r in the top X% of hands

2nd, players adapt more than u give them credit for, start 3betting any two for any period of time and shit will get wild no matter how unobservant the opponent.

as for calling 3bets OOP, and IP. the goal of this guide was to highlight a relatively fundamentally sound strategy which minimizes mistakes. The best way to induce mistakes in our opponents while not allowing ourself to make mistakes is having the initiative and 3betting, with a strong mix of hands. now no question, you CAN become a better, more profitable poker player with the idea of outplaying opponents in position and mixing up your game well. however, that is faaar more difficult and much more often than u outplay ur opponent ur r going to be spewing....

as for the >50nl stuff, i think this will work fine, ppl r just hanging themselves by 3betting nits with AJ0 who have a 1% PFR. You should be 3betting a wide range against players whos PFR range is exploitably large (this is the vast majority of FTRers, 2p2ers, 22/18, 19/16 etc etc) not against players whos PFR range is exploitably small.

Originally Posted by sauce123

as for the >50nl stuff, i think this will work fine, ppl r just hanging themselves by 3betting nits with AJ0 who have a 1% PFR. You should be 3betting a wide range against players whos PFR range is exploitably large (this is the vast majority of FTRers, 2p2ers, 22/18, 19/16 etc etc) not against players whos PFR range is exploitably small.

A lot of people seem to be having trouble with the "3 bet if your hand beats 1/2 their range" part of this concept. Despite it being about 3betting like a monkey, if you follow the letter of this strat, you're not really getting out of line that often. I took it more to mean "You don't have to have JJ+/AK to 3bet" than a "3bet any two 'cause you're crazy." I actually tend to 3bet less when I follow that tidbit.

i need to do some serious editing on the initial stickied guide for sure and incoporate some of this discussion

Originally Posted by sauce123

22 is not better than AK, nuff said. look in ur and everyone else's database- the best poker hands r like AA KK QQ AKs JJ TT AKo 99 AQs 88 etc etc.... if u r playing poker for any amnt of money u should have a general idea of what hands r in the top X% of hands

2nd, players adapt more than u give them credit for, start 3betting any two for any period of time and shit will get wild no matter how unobservant the opponent.

Are the top X% of hands really the ones we are looking for when we want to 3-bet? Or is that just some way to 3-bet a bit lighter (and exploit the larger PFR ranges), but not too much.

In my expierence the 2 most important reasons to 3bet are:
1. getting value (big pairs)
2. FE (can be all hands)

When we are 3-betting lighter than just the big hands, we are looking for FE. Doing it with just a top X% of hands is just so we don't do it too often, or am I wrong here?

I.e. Aren't medium PP's good hands too call IP against a wide range assuming we are not set hunting with them? And 22 or 68s bad ones because we're not having enough implied odds to set hunt? Shouldn't 22/68s be the ones to 3-bet because they 1.have FE (like any 2 cards have) AND they have good 'hidden value' against villains 3-bet calling range?
Of course 99 has that too, but it has good equite against the wider raising ranges too. By 3-betting it you more or less turn it into a bluffing hand.

minsim- ur reasoning isnt really flawed its more just that u arent understanding the purpose of this guide....

this isnt the optimal way to play poker and i never stated that.

the idea of this guide was to help relatively inexperienced, mathematical, methodical players play in such a way that they induce pre+postflop FToP mistakes in their opponents while minimizing them in themselves and eliminating FPS.

erring on the side of FE and C-betting too much is going to be much more profitable than erring on the side of "well, call these X hands in position and extract value postflop".

Originally Posted by sauce123

i need to do some serious editing on the initial stickied guide for sure and incoporate some of this discussion

yes, a quick stack size discussion will help a lot, I think we talked about it some in the beginning of the thread. For some reason a lot of players aren't paying attention much to stack sizes.

Originally Posted by sauce123

minsim- ur reasoning isnt really flawed its more just that u arent understanding the purpose of this guide....

this isnt the optimal way to play poker and i never stated that.

the idea of this guide was to help relatively inexperienced, mathematical, methodical players play in such a way that they induce pre+postflop FToP mistakes in their opponents while minimizing them in themselves and eliminating FPS.

erring on the side of FE and C-betting too much is going to be much more profitable than erring on the side of "well, call these X hands in position and extract value postflop".

Nice to hear my reasoning is good. Though it really wasn't meant to make a point or something. It's just that I think of game theory a lot lately and am trying to get certain things straight for myself. Mostly WHY we do certain things (why is 3-betting light profitable, why is position important besides blind stealing, why are certain boards scary, etc....and of course how all this of can be exploited).

I understand the idea of the guide that it's a guideline for relatively inexperienced players to minimize their own mistakes and take advantage/induce opponents mistakes. And I do think it's a really good guide, because it focusses on exploiting the standard TAG guidelines that, in the meantime, are advocated everywhere. The games are getting tougher/different because everybody can read books and forums these days and a lot more people have a basic idea of how to play tight poker. It's more or less the next adaption to how the game is played. When the games were filled with bad loose players, TAG was the way. Now TAG becomes the standard more en more, so we need a new way to exploit it. For me the guide really does a good job in that and it has opened my eyes on some points in that process .

I also do agree with erring on the 3-betting or extracting/outplaying side. In theory the extracting/outplaying side is more profitable, I think. But it is also more difficult: the mistakes you make are bigger, the risks to make them are bigger, and you just need to know a lot more about your opponents and how to play the game optimal against them.
Because most players, including myself, don't know how to combine all of that at best, 3-betting to make decisions easier becomes actually a more profitable play.

It would really help (atleast me) if you can go into WHY the things you advise are good. I.e.:
1. Why are we calling 3-bets IP with TT+/AK, but fold TT and JJ OOP?
2. Why are we c-betting a 3-bet pot on every A, K, Q flop? What ranges do villains generally have for this to be good?
3. Why is double barreling a K, Q, J, T turn in a 3-bet pot against players who have shown down 22-99/SC's a good thing? Are their ranges wide enough for it to be profitable? What do you consider to be their range in a 3-bet pot then?

I know you have thought about all of this before you wrote it and I expect it is common knowledge for all the high stakes players.
I can also understand if you say that going into these things is something individual players should find out for themselves. But some help would really be appreciated, because in general things seem a lot more complicated before understanding them then afterwards.

Minsim,
Why takes way too long to explain and you should be able to figure it out on your own. The truth is most don't know why. Once you figure it out your game will improve a lot.

Originally Posted by sauce123

STICKIED!!!

I see your original post is stickied but I haven't seen this one added yet. Would you all like the comments stickied as well?

Originally Posted by SmackinYaUp

Originally Posted by sauce123

STICKIED!!!

I see your original post is stickied but I haven't seen this one added yet. Would you all like the comments stickied as well?

Well the original post has a link to this post, so it's not really necessary.

oh ok cool. this is a great thread, i never read through it til now

Sauce123 Strategy Poker Videos by JeffreyGB

If you haven't watched these yet, please take a look and review them. If you've already watched them, please rate them.

$200 NLHE 6-Max: JGB being saucy
$400 NLH 6-Max: JGB with More Sauce 1
$400 NLH 6-Max: JGB with More Sauce 2

wow. i have to give props to all the "deeper" posts in this thread. some of the shit is so far over my head, its like having a "HEEEEEHAAAAAW" moment all over again.

i'll get there, but right now, i dont even have a question for all the smoke coming from my ears.

great teaching/discussing, guys. a million thanks.

Sauce writes:

6. Call a raise in any position if the following conditions are present:
a) you are holding an SC or a PP
b) There are two or more people already in the pot
c) your hand is not strong enough to 3bet (not in the top 1/2 if their opening range from that position)

So we are calling in any pot that is going to be multiway? Does this apply to weak hands like J7o? What is the reasoning for this? Are we getting imlied odds just because its multiway?

he means all of those conditions have to be met. so j7o doesnt work for A.

in your post flop cbetting bullet points, i notice you advocate cbetting...
-1-2 paints
-7 or lower
-dry boards (i may have added that, i cant remember)

but, i didnt see...
-paired boards
-2 flush boards/monotone

i dont know why not the paired boards, as i find them easy to cbet myself.

and, i assume avoiding the flushy boards is because so many ppl love the flush?

just checking, as i seem to go into "auto cbet mode" and it turns into spew fairly quickly.

chopper- cbetting has a ton to do with texture and our opponent

paired boards are great to cbet of course

dont take this as gospel ive gotta do some serious editing though the central points regarding frequent 3betting are very sound.

I have improved as a player/ my understanding of the game a lot since making this post for sure.

understood. and i am not following you "to the T," but i dont change much. it seems to work, if i dont cbet like a monkey. the call stations at 25NL tear me up when i do.

what i like most, currently though, is...

- you always seem to be in position
- you applied the pressure pf w/ a raise forcing opps to only call

i only have about 2k hands right now, but find it much easier to make decisions.

Originally Posted by Chopper

understood. and i am not following you "to the T," but i dont change much. it seems to work, if i dont cbet like a monkey. the call stations at 25NL tear me up when i do.

what i like most, currently though, is...

- you always seem to be in position
- you applied the pressure pf w/ a raise forcing opps to only call

i only have about 2k hands right now, but find it much easier to make decisions.

chopper- if u find yourself generally in position with the initiative its tough to lose

i feel that, at that point, youve reduced it to all BUT the cards. obv, you can still get dealt into some shitty spots, as i am finding out. but, the calming peace is that those soon enough will turn.

i am still making some bone-headed plays, or taking hands a bit too far with the odd bluff or hero call, but all in all, i like where this is going.

question: do you consider 2nd pair "hitting the flop" and, therefore, worthy of a bet...in general? i know we want to avoid blanket statements, but do you fire with 2nd pair better than 50% of the time in position? oop?

Originally Posted by Chopper

i feel that, at that point, youve reduced it to all BUT the cards. obv, you can still get dealt into some shitty spots, as i am finding out. but, the calming peace is that those soon enough will turn.

i am still making some bone-headed plays, or taking hands a bit too far with the odd bluff or hero call, but all in all, i like where this is going.

question: do you consider 2nd pair "hitting the flop" and, therefore, worthy of a bet...in general? i know we want to avoid blanket statements, but do you fire with 2nd pair better than 50% of the time in position? oop?

board texture/image r just sooo important there. For instance my std line with AT on KT6r is prob cbet/check/value bet

mid strength made hands r just so affected by texture as they can often be hands whihc suck to get c/r off of but still would show a loss vs an opp range when getting AI on the flop.

Would that cbet/check/value bet be a c/f on the turn or a c/c?
If c/c, do you b/f turn or c/f?

In general I feel that when I cbet flop, check turn people instabet the turn. I likely call and have to (I think ) c/f the river a lot.

Hi Sauce, thanks again for this base guide, I read through it again recently & I've tried to implement some of the ideas a bit more into my game.
With reference to implementing it what would your advice be in these common scenarios - 50Nl - fairly loose game

1) You have J10s in the sb/bb there are 2-4 limpers in the pot, do you
a) raise - as you have a hand you would normally raise otb
b) see a cheap flop

2) You have AQo oop vs a 20/15 open from a guy with 16-25bb, do you
a) 3bet & call shove
b) Call and look to flop A or Q and get it in

3) How do you play back against an opponent who is floating flop (fold to cbet less than 33%) and betting turn (75%) when checked to in pos?

4) Do you think there would be any major negative consequence to this general strategy if my CO range was more like your suggested OTB range
& my OTB range was about 5/6% higher?

noble, i will be interested to see the responses you get from Q's 2 & 3. but, i am having the same issues with Q 1.

i think the whole goal is to stay in position. if you have an SC and limpers, you will still be out of position against pp's and limped A's a lot. i would call for cheap flop b/c of position in a loose-passive game. but, i would raise it up 6-8X oop if the table is full of nits.

i am finding some floaters too, and we have to get better at distinguishing them and not cbettting them.

I love playing floaters and personally look to get on a table where I have position on them. If they float you oop they are dead. All you have to do is mix in some c/r on the turn and they will stop. You can do this with good hands, mediocre hands, and air. If they are floating a very high frequency just increase the number of hands you are willing to felt.

wait, you're going to c/r in position on the turn?

I must be playing a diff. game

Originally Posted by minSim

Originally Posted by sauce123

Originally Posted by Chopper

i feel that, at that point, youve reduced it to all BUT the cards. obv, you can still get dealt into some shitty spots, as i am finding out. but, the calming peace is that those soon enough will turn.

i am still making some bone-headed plays, or taking hands a bit too far with the odd bluff or hero call, but all in all, i like where this is going.

question: do you consider 2nd pair "hitting the flop" and, therefore, worthy of a bet...in general? i know we want to avoid blanket statements, but do you fire with 2nd pair better than 50% of the time in position? oop?

board texture/image r just sooo important there. For instance my std line with AT on KT6r is prob cbet/check/value bet

mid strength made hands r just so affected by texture as they can often be hands whihc suck to get c/r off of but still would show a loss vs an opp range when getting AI on the flop.

Would that cbet/check/value bet be a c/f on the turn or a c/c?
If c/c, do you b/f turn or c/f?

In general I feel that when I cbet flop, check turn people instabet the turn. I likely call and have to (I think ) c/f the river a lot.

Sauce (or someone else), could you pls comment on this one...

How does that line differ from;
- TJ?
- K2?
- KJ?
- AK?

Originally Posted by thizzSantaCruz

Sauce.....

all I can say is your a BOSS. I don't think this will work at 25nl but when I make my way up to 100nl I am all over it. Until then I will just over aggro my way through the small stakes.

A lot of this works VERY well at NL25, but it's probably high variance. I think the most important thing I've learned about microstakes fish is that they (mostly) have no clue about position. Sauce's guide really takes advantage of that weakness by coming in aggressively with position and turning up the heat. Might need to play slightly tighter is c-bet a bit less, but in general this works, imo. In general it's how I tend to play, though there are many areas where I'm going to change to follow Sauce's advice.

Originally Posted by bigspenda73

wait, you're going to c/r in position on the turn?

I must be playing a diff. game

bwahhahaha its because you don't have a superuser account. excuse me for sounding like a retard, c/r them oop. i like double barreling those call happy people that always call your c-bets.

Originally Posted by thizzSantaCruz

Originally Posted by bigspenda73

wait, you're going to c/r in position on the turn?

I must be playing a diff. game

bwahhahaha its because you don't have a superuser account. excuse me for sounding like a retard, c/r them oop. i like double barreling those call happy people that always call your c-bets.

first to robb...yes, you should cbet a little less. these donkeys dont know where the fold button is on the flop a lot of times. they will call with 2nd and in some cases 3rd pair. i have switched to more of a value bet approach lately. i still cbet, but about half as often as i was before. and, i call more in the face of flop bets, too, instead of raising.

santa...i dont like to 2barrel w/o a scare card. and, sauce's guide says that. doing so on draw heavy boards is also a no-no. once they've taken the draw past the flop...they aint folding for nothing. so, if i suspect they are chasing (or if i have a note), my 2barrel is with TP+ and its full PSB. not exactly a 2barrel, but they wont fold to it....or maybe they think it is a 2barrel...i dont care. once the draw misses, the hand is over...unless they bluff at it, which i find most dont.

my samples are still small. and the variance at 25NL is high, but i like the control i have to drive/halt the action.

i agree with you chopper, some people will call a 2nd bet as well but I find a lot sit think and fold. If they call 2 streets while chasing I note it and take them to value town. It all really depends on board texture, if the board is extremely dry a lot of donks "put you on AK" and call you down. Its pretty player dependant but at my sites I don't find a lot of good floaters.

Originally Posted by sauce123

the idea of this guide was to help relatively inexperienced, mathematical, methodical players play in such a way that they induce pre+postflop FToP mistakes in their opponents while minimizing them in themselves and eliminating FPS.

I just had to laugh reading that - that's me: too much Fancy Play Syndrome. Who the f*** needs to stop-and-go against total donks at microstakes? LoL. I think the spirit of the post comes through - a basic strat for attacking the multitabling regs, and some good ideas for other players whose shortcomings are similar.

look in the dictionary under "FPS," and you will see my picture.

again, though, thank you, sauce, for giving me some basic "initiative taking strategy" for me to cling to.

i have literally slowplayed less than 10 times in 5k hands since trying to implement this.

"bet it when you get it" is the best part for micros to adhere to...no exceptions. well, maybe flopping quads...which i did today.

and it paid being up against a flopped and turned boat. easy triple up. lol.

Originally Posted by Chopper

look in the dictionary under "FPS," and you will see my picture.

again, though, thank you, sauce, for giving me some basic "initiative taking strategy" for me to cling to.

i have literally slowplayed less than 10 times in 5k hands since trying to implement this.

"bet it when you get it" is the best part for micros to adhere to...no exceptions. well, maybe flopping quads...which i did today.

and it paid being up against a flopped and turned boat. easy triple up. lol.

especially when playing smaller stakes slowplaying rarely/never is a good idea. mostly this is because such a large majority of ur opponents are calling stations and so few of them punish u effectively for taking thin value. at most, fastplaying is a small mistake, while many times slowplaying can cost you 1-2 bets on later streets which can translate into a buyin or more.

Definantly agreed. I chose to slow play top set today on a K25r board got bet into on a J turn and raise him up. He flats and the river falls T which scares the fuck out of me. He leads for 2/3 and I can only flat. He flips over a set of 2s. If I play the hand fast I definantly get it all in.

Just read this whole thread, been using the guide+ personal touches for a few weeks and killing 100NL for around 8BB/100

Thx sauce, much appreciated.

Originally Posted by sauce123

i also probably didnt deal with preflop betsizing well. We open 4x from all positions.

we 3bet 3.5x in position and 4x OOP.

we 4bet 1.5x our opponents 3bet. For example we open to 4 he 3bet to 15 we 4bet to 35 or 40 hopefully giving him some perceived fold equity or postflop play which does not in fact exist.

our bets postflop in raised pots should generally be for 5/6 pot on the flop and 3/4 or so on turn.

Quick newb quesitons:

In general is it recommended to still raise 4x when lagging it up (20 pfr, etc)?

Even newbier question: How is the 4bet of 1.5x opp's bet when HERO 4bets from 15 to (35-40)..... isn't that more like 2.5x?

sunfunbunch,
read the post again, he's talking about raising 15 to 35-40 on a fourbet.

"we 4bet 1.5x our opponents 3bet."

Originally Posted by IowaSkinsFan

sunfunbunch,
read the post again, he's talking about raising 15 to 35-40 on a fourbet.

"we 4bet 1.5x our opponents 3bet."

I have to agree that when we say 3-bet 3.5x or 4x, that we should also say 4-betting is 2.5x.

I was just wondering, if you employed this strategy almost perfectly and were a decent hand reader, what win rate could you expect to achieve @ 100 + 200NL?

Wtf why did that post get posted? I realized before i posted it he was right so i thought i deleted it lol.

Sorry for the question but can someone explain the stats 15/30 ? I guess these indicate the passivness of a player but can not seem to find the explanation anywhere...

I've tried to summarize/organize the take home points across the thread. Not sure if I've done it justice. Thanks to Sauce and others.

Preflop Play: Open
AK, AQs, any pair, UTG (possibly suited broadways). Add:
AQo, AJs, ATs, KQs, UTG+1. Add:
AJo, KQo, KJs, KTs, QTs QJs-87s, CO . Add:
ATo, QJo, JTo A9s-A2s, 76s-54s, J9s-75s, Btn
Bet sizes: open 4x from all positions; 3bet 3.5x in position and 4x OOP. 4bet 2.5x the opponents 3bet.
3bet/Reraise: with the top 1/2 of hands they open with (top 2/3 if they are a calling station or large donkey (MOST IMPORTANT PART OF GUIDE). This does not mean you have to 3bet every hand in his range every time you get it, but it is your default play. You may be a little tighter from blinds (but you should be 3-betting a lot from the blinds when opponent is opening in steal position). Also- a lot of ppl have taken this 3betting thing too liberally at 100nl and below. there are a TON of 12/10 or 15/12 type players at these limits. these are the type of guys where 3betting a hand in the top 1/2 of their range means like 88+ AQ+ ATs+ when they open in the CO or btn and TT+ AK+ often from UTG or UTG+1. this isnt rly 3betting "light" because these players just arent playing enough hands. Jager: I haven't been able to fully utilize Sauces light 3betting at 200nl either. There just aren't enough players opening a wide range until they get to the CO. I am seeing a lot of 15/10 players lately, some of whom are only stealing at ~15%. There is also alot of extreme donk types lately, ie 45/5/0.5 and 50/30/5. You really can't 3bet a 50/30 light, cause you just have zero FE, and you really can't 3bet a 45/5 light cause their range is so tight. Sauce: Against the 50/30 you 3-bet for value, where you 3-bet a 22/18 for fold equity. Against the 45/5, you can call for implied more often.
• 3-bet size: 4x the opener's bet OOP and 3.5x or a little less in position
• blind play is gonna be based on the same criteria of the top 1/2 to 2/3 of his opening range from any given position should be our basic range to 3bet him. so we will be playing approx as aggressively from OOP (tho u should probably shade up to the 2/3 mark when OOP and size ur raise closer to 4x)
Isolate/raise limpers with any hand you would open with from the button.

raise to you: Call in any position if all of the following conditions are present:
• your hand is not strong enough to 3bet (not in the top 1/2 if their opening range from that position)
• w/ SC or a PP
• There are two or more people already in the pot (i.e., it is not HU)
3bet to you- In position: call with >TT, AK; OOP: 4bet with >QQ, AK (to avoid playing oop).
4bet shove to you:
• TAG with 100 BB: call only with QQ+ AK
• LAG players perhaps add JJ
• 50 BB stacks we will be adding many more hands.

Postflop
In a Raised Pot
Bet size: generally 5/6 pot on the flop and 3/4 or so on turn.
Cbet any flop containing 1-2 paint cards, any flop containing 3 cards 7 or lower, any flop containing disconnected cards, paired cards, and any flop which hit you. C-betting strategy is restricted to HU flops (b/c of 3-bet size we will almost never have multiway action). If multiway we will only bet if we have a hand or draw.
OOP do you not put any more money in the pot past your cbet if you do not have Top pair or an 8+ out draw.
Bluff all scare cards on turn or river if given an opportunity. (e.g., i consider the third spade hitting on turn to be a scare card for our range rather than villain's. If we are the PFR our villain is def more likely to have a spade draw than we are in his range. If we bet when the spade card hits we are reppping combo draw/TPTK/Overpair/As x/ air/ set/made flush in about that order of importance. So against this range of ours a thinking villain is likely going to muck mid pair no spade but call with anything better, a range which really isnt all that different from his check/call of our cbet on the flop... conclusion: betting the turn when a flush hits as the PFR is probably not good without a specific read given we have little to no outs.)
Slowplay: you may sets only on rainbow unconnected boards.

In a 3-bet/reraised pot
C-bet for 2/3 pot any flop containing one or more A K Q, any flop which has given you top pair or an 8+ out draw or better.
Double barrel shove any flop/turn containing a K, Q, J, or T against opponents who are in position and have shown down a hand 22-99, T9s-54s in your recent memory in a 3bet pot.
weak overpair: (99 on a 872 flop)If you have bet a fold to a flop raise and call only any bet that is less than or equal to 1/2 pot on later streets against most players.
strongest hands and draws: shove turn (pot committing bet) if opponent called our flop bet in position and the turn does not help our hand. This situation will come up frequently. Example: 20/16 opens in the CO. We 3bet 98s he calls. Flop T74 we bet 2/3 pot from bb he calls. Turn Q we should make a pot committing bet in this situation almost always.
A or K falls on the turn or river: Always bet if you have already bet the flop unless there are two cards connecting to it.
Slowplay: never.

Well i can fairly safely say that this does not work to well at .1/.25

Keep getting calls from calling stations (I look them up on PTR and they are mostly -10bb+ players) on the flop when i c/bet, usually they have nothing more than 1 or 2 over cards and then they hit their pair and go all in. Mix that with some other pure bad luck and i dont think i will try this again untill i move up the ranks.

I can see the potential in it though when not against complete dimwits

Originally Posted by big26

Well i can fairly safely say that this does not work to well at .1/.25

Keep getting calls from calling stations (I look them up on PTR and they are mostly -10bb+ players) on the flop when i c/bet, usually they have nothing more than 1 or 2 over cards and then they hit their pair and go all in. Mix that with some other pure bad luck and i dont think i will try this again untill i move up the ranks.

I can see the potential in it though when not against complete dimwits

I promise you its not the guide that can't beat .1/.25

So are you saying it can/will and i am just not executing properly?

Originally Posted by big26

So are you saying it can/will and i am just not executing properly?

Keep working on your game, you'll get there

Ok shall do i just dont have much room to bleed at .1/.25 at the moment i might have to try to reload a bit at .05/.10

Originally Posted by big26

Well i can fairly safely say that this does not work to well at .1/.25

Keep getting calls from calling stations (I look them up on PTR and they are mostly -10bb+ players) on the flop when i c/bet, usually they have nothing more than 1 or 2 over cards and then they hit their pair and go all in. Mix that with some other pure bad luck and i dont think i will try this again untill i move up the ranks.

I can see the potential in it though when not against complete dimwits

If players are like you describe, most likely this guide will make you money.

It's different than the perspective I have about 25NL games though, the Stars ones I have seen are extremely weak, mostly weak tight.

Originally Posted by minSim

Originally Posted by big26

Well i can fairly safely say that this does not work to well at .1/.25

Keep getting calls from calling stations (I look them up on PTR and they are mostly -10bb+ players) on the flop when i c/bet, usually they have nothing more than 1 or 2 over cards and then they hit their pair and go all in. Mix that with some other pure bad luck and i dont think i will try this again untill i move up the ranks.

I can see the potential in it though when not against complete dimwits

If players are like you describe, most likely this guide will make you money.

It's different than the perspective I have about 25NL games though, the Stars ones I have seen are extremely weak, mostly weak tight.

You need to work on table selection then, these guys are nuts