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Calling 3Bets OOP 100bb in 6max?

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  1. #1

    Default Calling 3Bets OOP 100bb in 6max?

    Hey, have question:
    1) would like to know your thoughts on calling 3Bets OOP, 100bb stacks vs regs (who 3bet ip a lot, like std 24/20 with 8-9% 3bet, fairly polorized range with some KJo/ATo in there)

    a) do you play 4B or fold game OOP? (widening our bluff 3Betting freq + adding more value hands, like TT/AQ/99/88 to your value 4B/calling range)
    or
    b) do you sometimes call 3Bets OOP, with hands that are not good enouhg to 4b/call in certain spots, 4B/bluffing with them feels a bit dirty, and those hands are somewhat ahead of opponents 3Betting range (polorzed range). Plus they play fairly okey postflop
    I`m mostly talking about hands like AQ, KQ, AJ (off/suited), (ATs), 67s-QJs, 97s-KJs
    Plan for postflop, is to call 3Bet oop with these hands, with the idea to ch-raise many "empty/dry" boards, assumming villian will cbet/fold a lot of his air (with any backdoors or even 2nd/3rd pair type as 5out semibluff if its SC), for example ch-raise like T62r flop, or J64r, boards where opp didnt hit too often, but would cbet a lot of his air (presumably cbet/fold).
    We can also obv Ch-call hands like AQ/AJ/AT/maybe KQ on dry 932r or 224ss (with suit) flops and kinda float OOP.
    Plus we can donk some wet boards (Which villian wouldnt cbet light too much/PC a lot) + we fold out his overs, for example AK vs our donkbet. For example lead 864ss flop with overs (potentially 3barreling if he just calls flop)

    2) PP`s 88-JJ i believe is optimal to always 4B or fold oop wiht 100bbs, pretty much never calling normal size 3bet (3x-9x+ type)

    3) How does the fact, that we know that our opponent is polorized or depolorized with his 3bets ip, should infuence our strategy as for playing vs 3bets OOP (calling/4Bing strat)

    Thx
    Last edited by lancelott_; 08-15-2011 at 02:16 AM.
  2. #2
    how do you play in the big blind facing an open raise?
  3. #3
    Awesome, you were the funniest guy in your class right?
    I mean if thats somethings stupid to ask/discuss, i`m sorry i guess.
    Not sure if this topic is solved, (at least i`m defenitely not certain how to approach it). If you are a better player, you can just give your advice on this, or just skip the thread, which appears "stupid" to you, and not waste your valuable time
  4. #4
    Shotglass's Avatar
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    M2M's question was prolly to try to get you to start thinking about the way you play and the reasons that you do something...
  5. #5
    I think that if you think about why someone would polarize a 3-bet range and what they would hope your response is, you can probably figure out the best way to combat it.
    Playing big pots at small stakes.
  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by Shotglass View Post
    M2M's question was prolly to try to get you to start thinking about the way you play and the reasons that you do something...
    this basically

    Quote Originally Posted by lancelott_ View Post
    Awesome, you were the funniest guy in your class right?
    I mean if thats somethings stupid to ask/discuss, i`m sorry i guess.
    Not sure if this topic is solved, (at least i`m defenitely not certain how to approach it). If you are a better player, you can just give your advice on this, or just skip the thread, which appears "stupid" to you, and not waste your valuable time
    your question isn't stupid at all, but its very complex is depends on a ton of variables.

    the one thing about getting better at poker is trying not to develop a sort of 'formula sheet' for each situation you will encounter at the tables - facing a 3bet OOP is an example of such a situation.

    so instead of writing out how to play against every single type of opponent there is out there in 3bet pots oop, what you should do is ask yourself this:

    regarding 1)a
    if we are playing a 4bet/fold game, what things can villain do to exploit us? i.e. how can he tweak his range? his sizing? his frequencies? and so on. to answer this, just ask yourself how you play against someone who only 4bet/folds against your 3bets. its probably a good idea to make a list of pros/cons for never calling 3bets oop. how does villains chosen 3bet range shape say, his cold calling range?

    regarding 2)
    you are making a blanket statement by blindly assuming all regulars at ssnl or msnl make it difficult for you to call mid pairs oop to a 3bet. you need to think outside the box a bit and go beyond just preflop. how your opponent plays postflop is the key to knowing how many streets to c/c with your bluffcatchers, turn hands into bluffs, etc. this is a tricky spot in poker and there isn't an exact science to it, but what you really need to do is sort of develop a profile for the player you're up against and consider the following: his range, his tendency to barrel you in single raised pots, your image, the positions he likes to bluff in most, stuff like that. inflection points are really critical in spots like this because your range will often at times be narrow/very face up. some players will just cbet/give up when called, others will try barreling you off your hand either all the way to the river, or just the turn. take all factors into account about the player when predicting their ranges in these spots (how many tables, recent history, your image, their perceived image, rate what u think about their thought process, their location, avatar, anything/everything adds up to something to go on)

    1b same idea as 2. anytime you don't have the nuts oop, you are going to have to do some thinking and accept that sometimes you'll fuck up. i think fear of making a mistake post flop is why some people play super tight vs 3bets.

    Quote Originally Posted by baudib View Post
    I think that if you think about why someone would polarize a 3-bet range and what they would hope your response is, you can probably figure out the best way to combat it.
    pretty much this. in any poker situation if you understand why someone is doing something then this should often lead you to realize what the correct adjustment(s) is(are).

    so if someone is 3betting you with a super polarized range (like say kk+ and air) why might this player be doing this?
  7. #7
    if i were to get 3 bet and i was out of position i would consider doing one of the following based on how often were also doing the following. calling, raising, or folding.
  8. #8
    M2M thx, very good deep post
  9. #9
    rpm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Micro2Macro View Post
    lots
    awesome post. thanks.
  10. #10
    Occasionally I defend suited and connected hands OOP to 3bets when I feel very confident my opponent is 3betting way too light and I'm also concerned my 4b will get shipped on a lot.

    Postflop I do a lot of reverse floating with any kind of equity. So if I have 8s9s and flop is like Ts6h2d I'm usually gonna c/c there, if the turn is any spade, J or Q I'll c/shove over a turn bet, but if the turn gets checked through I just bet the river and pick it up a decent amount.

    NOTE- The reason I get away with this more often than others is because I also flat AA/KK and sometimes QQ to 3bets, so my range is protected (but I don't flat light OOP unless I've already established and made it clear that those hands are in my range---UNLESS I just feel really confident that the dude is bluffing.

    In general I'd give the advice to anybody that asked to just not flat 3bets OOP w/ 100bb stacks because it's kinda difficult to pull this stuff off and profit.
  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Marshall28 View Post
    In general I'd give the advice to anybody that asked to just not flat 3bets OOP w/ 100bb stacks because it's kinda difficult to pull this stuff off and profit.
    wat
  12. #12
    It's really hard to play well in 3b pots OOP with only 100bb stacks. Anybody good will crush you, or me, or anybody. Power of position.
  13. #13
    If we start flat a lot, including with QQ+/AK, it should work out pretty well for us until he stops 3-betting us with air, y/n?
    Last edited by baudib; 08-17-2011 at 05:04 PM.
    Playing big pots at small stakes.
  14. #14
    Except that it's lol hard to pick up a hand. If you can't pick something up you'll get run over pretty badly trying to do it.
  15. #15
    i defenitely flat KK/AA (becuase they play so well postflop on almsot any board) to weaker stuff as well (if i do decide to ccall something oop).
    I think AK/QQ/(JJ) should be 4Bet mostly
    The reason why i started this thread, is becuase i was talking to some fairly good msnl regs, and some of them told me they alomsot to never flat 3bets oop (show very good profit in general), some of them do think its necessery to flat oop some hands in todays games, because people just 3bet too wide and too polorized
    So i was interested in your oppinion on this one
  16. #16
    if u want to start calling some 3bets oop, id recommend hands that hit a high freq of boards but have mediocre-bad hot and cold equity.

    stuff like 87s-KQs, T8s-AJs, J8s-ATs, that kind of thing. hands like 44 are a bad choice. hands like 88-TT are good choices as well just because of how much equity they have.
    I got more flava than fruitstripe gum
  17. #17
    Am I wrong for thinking that if we never flat with nut-range hands vs. someone who 3-bets polarized we'll be A. wasting our premiums most of the time cuz he just folds, letting him play perfectly and B. when we flat he just owns us on most high boards.
    Playing big pots at small stakes.

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