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5/10: Strange river spot deep

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  1. #1
    pocketfours's Avatar
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    Default 5/10: Strange river spot deep

    Villain is a very good hyperaggro reg lagtard who plays higher stakes.

    SB ($1,017)
    BB ($2,736)
    Hero ($3,237)
    Dealt to Hero 2 K
    Hero raises to $20, fold, BB raises to $90, Hero calls $70
    FLOP ($185) A Q A
    BB bets $135, Hero calls $135
    TURN ($455) A Q A T
    BB checks, Hero checks
    RIVER ($455) A Q A T J
    BB checks, Hero?


  2. #2
    If he's so hyper aggro, and might c/bomb here or something crazy with Kx then I don't hate a check back. Given action I can't imagine what he would c/c with. He clearly has no A.
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  3. #3
    microstakes player here: Maybe bet small to induce a bluff?

    edit: I mean if you bet it should be with the intention of bet/calling right? Your hand is pretty well defined as a good not great made hand. It's probably a little better than it looks. He probably has nothing but might think he could rep your hand or a slow-played full house. If he's really aggro, let him raise and snap him off.

    edit2: He might very well put you on a weak suited ace or even busted flush draw and raise with complete shite. He probably thinks he can get you off trips and definitely off underpairs with a board that scary. What's his perception of you?
    Last edited by abelardx; 10-25-2013 at 10:48 AM.
  4. #4
    pocketfours's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by abelardx View Post
    What's his perception of you?
    He thinks I'm an aggro monkey probably. I played these (somewhat relevant) hands vs him a few orbits earlier:

    SB ($1,362)
    BB ($1,000)
    UTG ($4,871)
    CO ($1,087)
    Hero ($1,589)
    Dealt to Hero 6 4
    UTG raises to $30, fold, Hero raises to $100, fold, fold, UTG raises to $225, Hero raises to $450, UTG calls $225
    FLOP ($915) A T 8
    UTG checks, Hero checks
    TURN ($915) A T 8 7
    UTG checks, Hero bets $457, UTG folds
    Hero shows 6 4

    And this one:
    Hero ($1,029)
    BB ($1,284)
    BTN ($2,243)
    Dealt to Hero 9 8
    BTN raises to $25, Hero raises to $100, fold, BTN raises to $220, Hero raises to $1,029 (AI), BTN calls $809
    FLOP ($2,068) 4 3 2
    TURN ($2,068) 4 3 2 9
    RIVER ($2,068) 4 3 2 9 3
    Hero shows 9 8
    (Pre 17%, Flop 3.1%, Turn 11.4%)
    BTN shows T T
    (Pre 83%, Flop 96.9%, Turn 88.6%)
    BTN wins $2,067

    And this one:
    SB ($4,234)
    BB ($1,000)
    UTG ($1,795)
    Hero ($2,173)
    BTN ($1,000)
    Dealt to Hero T 6
    fold, Hero raises to $30, fold, SB raises to $120, fold, Hero calls $90
    FLOP ($250) A 4 6
    SB bets $165, Hero calls $165
    TURN ($580) A 4 6 K
    SB checks, Hero checks
    RIVER ($580) A 4 6 K J
    SB checks, Hero checks
    Hero shows T 6
    (Pre 43%, Flop 79.3%, Turn 93.2%)
    SB shows 5 Q
    (Pre 57%, Flop 20.7%, Turn 6.8%)
    Hero wins $577
    Last edited by pocketfours; 10-25-2013 at 11:37 AM.


  5. #5
    I like a half pot bet then. He could put you on air like the hand you showed which would make his raise river range huge.

    edit: You guys are super aggro preflop but more cautious postflop. Is bet/calling here a reasonable thing to do in your games?
    Last edited by abelardx; 10-25-2013 at 12:12 PM.
  6. #6
    There's a leggo poker free video that's a montage of big hands by mynameizgreg. I showed it to my brother. His comment: "So when they raise they don't have anything?"
  7. #7
    Ok doesn't seem to be too much spazzing post-flop, so I'd probably bet pretty big. I don't really want to be b/c here, so I don't want to induce.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jay-Z
    I'm a couple hands down and I'm tryin' to get back
    I gave the other grip, I lost a flip for five stacks
  8. #8
    I definitely wouldn't bet big, you have a very wide range here. Missed fds as well as Qxs that arent hearts obv, KQ,KJ,KT all seems plausible. Ax and boats also seem possible but not as likely It makes a lot of sense for him to want to c/r the river here and checking the turn is pretty sensible with just about any nut hand especially something deck crippling like QQ or AQ or AT. There aren't a lot of hands though that would want to call here that I can think of. It makes really little sense for him to have Kx because he'd almost certainly just bet it. You also don't have that many missed fds, basically 97hh, 87hh, 86hh, 76hh 75hh 65hh 64hh, 54hh, and maybe 53hh and 43hh. But all of them make perfect sense.

    Versus a hyper aggro high stakes reg its pretty close between check and bet like 235 call a raise. I think it's too easy for him to bluff here to bet fold though.
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  9. #9
    Renton's Avatar
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    I think K2s is just about the least profitable hand that you'd consider calling a 20-90 3-bet with deep stacks and probably just about the most optimal hand for 4-bet bluffing. I know you're gonna want to bluff and call a lot with position deep but I just hate hate hate this hand.

    On the river I'd bet a moderate amount and call a raise.
  10. #10
    pocketfours's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Renton View Post
    I think K2s is just about the least profitable hand that you'd consider calling a 20-90 3-bet with deep stacks and probably just about the most optimal hand for 4-bet bluffing. I know you're gonna want to bluff and call a lot with position deep but I just hate hate hate this hand.

    On the river I'd bet a moderate amount and call a raise.
    Do you think it's ok if we put him on atc and never expect him to fold to a 4bet? We still dominate most of his 2x hands and we're suited even.


  11. #11
    Renton's Avatar
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    Well I think its a little absurd to put him on such a wide range no matter how much of a lag he is. Even if his range is as wide as 30-40% of hands thats still a range that K2s will play poorly vs even with your positional advantage. And if you believe he's calling 100% of his range to a 4-bet (again IMO an unreasonable assumption but you were at the table, not me), I still think i prefer 4-betting to calling because its extremely exploitable for him to call that widely and our hand will play better if we have the initiative and presumably a stronger range vs his absurdly weak range oop. There are just a larger number of ways to exploit him in a 4bet pot vs his strategy.

    I also believe that with K2 suited specifically, the types of hands it tends to flop (bottom pair, king high, tpnk, non nut fd) are a lot easier and more profitable to play with shallower stacks and initiative than with deeper stacks and no initiative.
  12. #12
    pocketfours's Avatar
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    I'm not expecting him to call a 4bet (very) light. I'm expecting him to call with some range of decent hands and 5bet the rest. Folding to a 5bet seems silly and I've no idea what his response to a 6bet would be, which is why I didn't want to 4bet in the first place.


  13. #13
    Renton's Avatar
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    Fair enough. If those were your reads then the call is probably marginally +ev and better than the alternatives. I think you need to be 4-betting a crazy wide range for value though, AJ A9s KQ 66+ or something.
  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by pocketfours View Post
    Do you think it's ok if we put him on atc and never expect him to fold to a 4bet? We still dominate most of his 2x hands and we're suited even.
    if he always calls the 4bet then definitely 4bet....

    also this deep i dont think calling 3b is -ev but if someone calls every 4bet u can print money
  15. #15
    I think in general poker players get deep stacked and start playing hands that they wouldn't normally play and there sole reasoning is "but but but we're deep!" This doesn't make it profitable to play every hand in position. That being said I think the call pre is fine as long as your comfortable with your opponent.

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