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  1. #1
    Stacks's Avatar
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    Im opedipus bitch, the original balla.

    Default 3 Hands

    Hand 1 - Villain is a 23/18 reg. Total 3bet of 9% (4% v EP opens). Total flop cbet of 86% (90% in 3b pots).

    MP: $119.52
    CO: $154.53
    BTN: $225.77
    SB: $100.50
    BB: $100.00
    Hero (UTG): $306.70

    SB posts SB $0.50, BB posts BB $1.00

    Pre Flop: (pot: $1.50) Hero has 4 A

    Hero raises to $3.00, fold, fold, BTN raises to $9.00, fold, fold, Hero calls $6.00

    Flop: ($19.50, 2 players) 5 3 K
    Hero checks, BTN bets $12.00, Hero calls $12.00

    Turn: ($43.50, 2 players) A
    Hero checks, BTN bets $32.00

    Preflop, is flatting Axs going to be profitable this deep (225bb effective), even OOP? Or should I instead continue to place Axs into my 4bet range as I tend to do OOP 100bb deep?

    ---------------------------------------------------------------
    Hand 2 - Villain is 35/23 over 400 hands. Total 3b of 9%. C/r flop of 23% (3/13). Turn Agg Freq of 82%.

    SB: $206.70
    BB: $225.30
    UTG: $241.41
    MP: $201.54
    CO: $237.83
    Hero (BTN): $202.00

    SB posts SB $1.00, BB posts BB $2.00

    Pre Flop: (pot: $3.00) Hero has T Q

    UTG raises to $6.00, fold, fold, Hero calls $6.00, SB calls $5.00, BB calls $4.00

    Flop: ($24.00, 4 players) 2 6 Q
    SB checks, BB checks, UTG checks, Hero bets $8.00, SB raises to $20.00, fold, fold, Hero calls $12.00

    Turn: ($64.00, 2 players) 5
    SB bets $36.00,

    Fold flop? Call and fold turn? Call, call, see a river? Idk. I just feel pretty lost in similar spots usually. Whereby, I either feel like I'm making a nitty fold on the flop (he is generally loose and check/raising somewhat often [small sample]), or bluff-catching too frequently.

    ---------------------------------------------------------------
    Hand 3 - Villain is 36/26 over 120 hands. 13% 3bet. 89% flop cbet.

    MP: $102.08
    CO: $165.52
    Hero (BTN): $100.00
    SB: $130.05
    BB: $214.30
    UTG: $122.63

    SB posts SB $0.50, BB posts BB $1.00

    Pre Flop: (pot: $1.50) Hero has J Q

    fold, fold, fold, Hero raises to $3.00, fold, BB raises to $9.00, Hero calls $6.00

    Flop: ($18.50, 2 players) 4 8 T
    BB bets $9.00, Hero calls $9.00

    Turn: ($36.50, 2 players) A
    BB checks,

    Sizing on the turn? Should we be shoving any missed rivers?
  2. #2
    pocketfours's Avatar
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    1. pre is lighting money on fire
    2. QT is pretty weak, nothing wrong with taking the easy way out and folding flop. Not a very bad spot to check behind since our kicker is bad.
    3. sick turn, all possible lines have very similar EV. Size for shove regardless of whether you do it or not.


  3. #3
    Hand 1 - fold pre, on flop I don't hate the peel if he shuts down turns and we can steal riv sometimes.

    Hand 2 - meh fold flop

    Hand 3- I really don't think we have fold equity on this particular turn. Once he checks I think he has very little air. We need to either bet twice or take the free card imo.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jay-Z
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  4. #4
    Hand 1:

    I would 4b pre. I just don't see us c/r'ing or leading or c/c, leading whole lot of flops, so it kinda seems like we're calling and crossing our fingers that we hit a two pair+, which doesn't seem like a great plan OOP.

    As played, we only have 4 outs against most of his value range, and given that the turn is off-suit, there's just not a whole lot of combos that I feel he'd be naturally inclined to barrel. I imagine our only course for continuing is by turning our hand into a bluff, but with such a strong value range and so few outs, that seems bad.

    Hand 2:

    I'm torn ont his one and am interested to hear what people have to say. On the one hand, I hate to bet the flop small with the intention of folding when the aggro c/r, leads on a 5d, and he doesn't have a ton of combos for value, but the fact that he raised small with 3 players left to act makes it so much less likely that he's doing this with like 44. I'm probably stubborn and call again with the intention of folding to a third barrel, but I have a feeling that's bad.

    Hand 3:

    We would bet $22+ for value, and $24 seems perfect. I might just give up on blank rivers. We're close to the bottom of our range, but we block an insane amount of his river folding range so bad.
  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by griffey24 View Post
    Hand 3- I really don't think we have fold equity on this particular turn. Once he checks I think he has very little air. We need to either bet twice or take the free card imo.
    There are a ton of hands he could be c/f'ing this turn with. Certainly any pair lower than a T for starters.

    If all lines have similar eVs, I would defer to any line where we bet the turn because betting a hand like this reduces our b/f %age here.
  6. #6
    Stacks's Avatar
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    Hand 1 - I do typically fold preflop here. I don't make it a habit to call 3bets OOP with hands like this. However, given his highish 3bet %, his high cbet %, and the fact we are 225bb deep, I thought maybe it would be profitable to call and that I could check/raise or lead often. But honestly I probably don't follow through on that plan often enough, or play well enough postflop in these sort of spots.

    Hand 2 - I thought about checking back the flop, but felt I could bet small, getting value from SB, while not giving free cards to 3 villains. I also do typically fold the flop.

    What's the bottom of our calling range on the flop looking like? I'm thinking KQ? How do we proceed on turn if we had say KQ (or whatever you think the bottom of our flop calling range should be)?

    Hand 3 - I'd expect him to barrel the turn with the majority of his bluffs. And that the majority of his checking range is probably check/calling one street or hands with really poor equity that he might still check/fold on the river if we check back turn. Idk, I agree with Griffey in that it seems like we need to bet 2 streets here most of the time. Which makes me unsure if we should plan to do that, or take the free card.
  7. #7
    People aren't rampant floating Ax on a T84 board I don't think. If I had Tx,JJ-KK and chose not to bet the turn, then I would be checking to c/c and not c/f. You may get some folds from hands like 77 or something.

    Either way, his check is NOT air, and is more pot control than anything.
    Last edited by griffey24; 08-06-2013 at 04:00 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jay-Z
    I'm a couple hands down and I'm tryin' to get back
    I gave the other grip, I lost a flip for five stacks
  8. #8
    Stacks's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by surviva316 View Post
    There are a ton of hands he could be c/f'ing this turn with. Certainly any pair lower than a T for starters.

    If all lines have similar eVs, I would defer to any line where we bet the turn because betting a hand like this reduces our b/f %age here.
    Is it really necessary to bet turn to get folds from pairs less than Tx, when if we check back turn, and he checks river, we can probably get those hands to fold anyways? Also considering we improve to beat those hands nearly half the time, some of the time that we improve he can bluff into us.
  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Stacks View Post
    Is it really necessary to bet turn to get folds from pairs less than Tx, when if we check back turn, and he checks river, we can probably get those hands to fold anyways?
    We can wait for the river to bluff, but we'll have less equity and rep less hands. It also doesn't build a pot to shove when we hit.

    Quote Originally Posted by Stacks View Post
    Also considering we improve to beat those hands nearly half the time, some of the time that we improve he can bluff into us.
    We just established that he has no air, and I wouldn't really expect a pair to turn itself into a bluff simply because a backdoor draw completed.

    @Grif: "77 or something" is a lot of his range. You would have to severely discount 22-99/4xs/8x (and they are all somewhat discounted here and there) for it to not make up a sizable portion of his range.
  10. #10
    Renton's Avatar
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    1. 4b or fold pre. OTF I'd rather c/r than c/c. Thats a spot where he's quite likely to barrel the turn to make you fold TT, so you aren't doing yourself any favors by adding even more weak hands to an already fairly weak perceived range. Call turn, probably fold river.

    2. I'd call and call the river I guess. He looks like fairly a clown and you might have induced something with your small bet. I think he can certainly have KQ but he probably doesn't bet the river with it.

    3. 22 and check the river I think. Maybe you can bluff shove a jack or a queen. I think most blanks are gonna be just too blanky for you to get him off much.
  11. #11
    Renton's Avatar
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    Also are you guys seriously advocating a flop fold with top pair and a backdoor flush draw in position getting 4.5 to 1?
  12. #12
    1. Being deep you can justify a call but being OOP is just so bad here. That's why you're in such a tough spot post.
    2. I don't like the flop bet. As played you have to fold. It would another story if it was HU. After this hand I would pay attention to how this villain plays on such dry flops in the future.
    3. I wouldn't bet too strongly on the turn, max $24 probably slightly lower. I don't think you'd bet big here with an actual hand because you want him to call, so to be credible do this now too.
  13. #13
    gabe's Avatar
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    1 you cant call with that hand every time preflop. its better if villain can think you can call a 3b with strong hands like AK/AA. i would rather c/c on J53 more than K53 because they are more likely to barrel you on K53 when you have the best hand
    2 hate the flop sizing. i like checking QT and betting bigger w KQ
    3 i would bluff turn with worst stuff (67, 79, q9dd) and then follow through on river with those hands. with QJs i like checking and raising river when you hit and probably on an 8
  14. #14
    Stacks's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by surviva316 View Post
    We can wait for the river to bluff, but we'll have less equity and rep less hands.
    We rep fewer strong hands, but wouldn't we also be expected to have less air in our range? I mean, I'd expect most floats, or weak pairs that have little showdown value against villains checking range to bet the turn scare card as a bluff. So to me our checking back range here would be perceived to look a lot like Tx/8x/JJ-KK.

    Quote Originally Posted by surviva316 View Post
    We just established that he has no air, and I wouldn't really expect a pair to turn itself into a bluff simply because a backdoor draw completed.
    How much showdown value does 4x/8x/22-99 have on the river versus the hands we check back? Since we probably bet turn with the majority of our air and turn some of our weaker pairs into bluffs. With 4x/8x on the river in villain's shoes after turn goes check/check, I'd feel like I don't win at showdown all that often at all. And would want to turn those hands into bluffs, but not sure if we would get folds often enough. Is this just poor thinking here?

    Quote Originally Posted by surviva316 View Post
    @Grif: "77 or something" is a lot of his range. You would have to severely discount 22-99/4xs/8x (and they are all somewhat discounted here and there) for it to not make up a sizable portion of his range.
    I'd Tx/JJ-KK is a sizable portion of his range on the turn.
  15. #15
    Stacks's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Renton View Post
    1. OTF I'd rather c/r than c/c. Call turn, probably fold river.
    I wanted to check/raise flop, and wasn't thrilled about check/calling. What would a good check/raising range look like here? I was worried I didn't rep much, and would too often get floated and be lost on future streets deep OOP.



    Quote Originally Posted by Renton View Post
    2. I'd call and call the river I guess. He looks like fairly a clown and you might have induced something with your small bet. I think he can certainly have KQ but he probably doesn't bet the river with it.
    If you call turn, we have right at pot left behind ($140 stack, $136 pot). What cards would you fold to a shove on?

    Quote Originally Posted by Renton View Post
    3. 22 and check the river I think. Maybe you can bluff shove a jack or a queen. I think most blanks are gonna be just too blanky for you to get him off much.
    I feel like his turn checking range is going to consist of a lot of Tx/JJ-KK hands that aren't folding to a single barrel. So not really sure why you say to bet turn, check most rivers.

    Also, I'd think that on a Q (maybe J) river, we'd probably have a fair amount of showdown value versus his Tx/JJ hands. And that we might have some worse hands in our range for bluff-shoving, while checking the river with QJ.
  16. #16
    Stacks's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gabe View Post
    2 hate the flop sizing. i like checking QT and betting bigger w KQ
    I wasn't sure about giving a free card to 3 villains. Especially when I felt there was value to be had against the SB.

    I agree I don't like my sizing.
  17. #17
    gabe's Avatar
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    ur not getting 3 streets anyway with QT and when you check u can catch their bluffs or get 2 streets of value depending on what happens. free cards are annoying but so is getting bluffed off your hand on the flop or turn after betting flop

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