1/2 - hero call vs. weird fish 200bb deep?

BB is running 43/8/2.7 over 300 hands. Note high AF for these pre-flop stats. He c/r's flops 22% and turns 33% (very small sample obv). I've been at the table a few orbits and the only hand of note is that he flatted my cbet with an underpair, then donked a blank turn with a gutshot and a blank river, I called down with top pair.

Full Tilt No-Limit Hold'em, $2.00 BB (5 handed) - Full-Tilt Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

saw flop

BB ($417.25)
UTG ($323.65)
MP ($200)
Hero (Button) ($489)
SB ($201)

Preflop: Hero is Button with J, A
2 folds, Hero bets $5, 1 fold, BB calls $3

Flop: ($11) A, 4, 2 (2 players)
BB checks, Hero bets $10, BB raises to $24, Hero calls $14

Turn: ($59) J (2 players)
BB checks, Hero bets $50, BB raises to $100, Hero calls $50

River: ($259) Q (2 players)
BB bets $200, Hero...

Suspicious part is why he isn't setting up a river shove with his turn c/raise. Tough, but I still think river is a fold.

Originally Posted by Ravageur

Suspicious part is why he isn't setting up a river shove with his turn c/raise.

lol seriously?

This hand tilts me almost as much as Ravs reply. I wouldn't be terribly surprised if he was value betting something like AK/A2/A4.

I think he would slow down a % of the time with a worse two pair, when the turn brings the flush so i'd fold.

i think you can for sure (sure as you can be vs a donk at least) eliminate worse made hands for value once he c/r's the turn.

River seems like a fold to me.

ya im folding too, tho i dont haaate a call vs this guy. i think u can see weird shit like a5/a6 on the river where he just spazzed hard.

Originally Posted by Renton

i think you can for sure (sure as you can be vs a donk at least) eliminate worse made hands for value once he c/r's the turn.

I doubt this guy is giving any thought to what we might have or what we think he might have. He certainly doesn't think about what worse hands can call his value bets. In his world a value bet is a bet when he likes his hand. A bluff is a bet when he doesn't.

Yah I agree with P4's. I'm bad at folding in spots vs players I perceive don't know what they are doing.

I can go either way here. I doubt calling is a big mistake here.

Originally Posted by pocketfours

I doubt this guy is giving any thought to what we might have or what we think he might have. He certainly doesn't think about what worse hands can call his value bets. In his world a value bet is a bet when he likes his hand. A bluff is a bet when he doesn't.

No, but when donks see a flush out they consider anything < a flush to be a hand they don't like that much (AW GAWDAMNIT THE FUCKING FLUSH HITS EVERY GOD DAMN FUCKIN TIME). So when they c/minr on a flush completing turn and bet the river, they have the flush or a bluff, generally. If he has a worse aces up I think he doesn't c/r the turn.

hah p4s you get tilted way too easily. You don't think there is anything to take from his turn c/minraise when he 2.5x raised the flop? Sure he's a fish and he's clicking buttons, but I usually assume he has some thought process. Anyway, I think it's a fold especially when he took the time on the river to choose a value bet size and didn't just shove or hit pot button.

Originally Posted by Renton

No, but when donks see a flush out they consider anything < a flush to be a hand they don't like that much (AW GAWDAMNIT THE FUCKING FLUSH HITS EVERY GOD DAMN FUCKIN TIME). So when they c/minr on a flush completing turn and bet the river, they have the flush or a bluff, generally. If he has a worse aces up I think he doesn't c/r the turn.

I'd say passive fish often play and think like you describe. Loose aggro donkeys who want to see a lot of flops and then splash some moneys aren't always scared of flushes.

Even if we assume that you are correct here then I still don't hate a call, esp with the blocker. His line is just a bit too fancy for me to give him credit for a flush. Double c/r and big river lead. Jesus.

I also think his flop c/r is a bit small for an unpaired hand.

We know he likes to bluff and we need to be good 30%. I really couldn't find a fold here.

Originally Posted by Ravageur

hah p4s you get tilted way too easily. You don't think there is anything to take from his turn c/minraise when he 2.5x raised the flop?

Maybe he just tilted because we bet the turn after getting checkraised?

I think its really close, I don't really have a preference for call or fold

i really think that river is a fold

Originally Posted by phantom_lord

i really that river is a fold

agree

wow this hand is crazy

- after the turn we can't have sets, straight and against that player I would CIB or something like this with small flush (maybe with big flush too)
- so in my eyes we can have nuts (not always) or 2pair and worse, so his river lead seems SO FUCKNIG GOOD, because we must fold almost always, because his range crushes our range - he can easy has the hand

- I would say 10 times "fu a**hole" in chat and then I would fold it



- btw what is the best hand you would fold here??


edit:
- I would 3bet with nutFD on the flop