I'm always smoking.
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think BTC could head down to 52-53k zone lowered all my buy prices in case it does.
I'm not sure about bitcoin. I no longer think it's the safest coin to put money into. This is why I chose $BNB to dump profits. People actually need $BNB to pay fees, the demand is always going to be there. $ETH has ridiculous gas fees and I have no idea why people use it.
So in three hours I've added over 2.5m to take me to 7.25m
That's around $100 added, which is basically $30+ an hour. Now we're getting somewhere.
There is zero resistance too, this coin looks prime for a pump.
edit - spoke too soon, a whale has just slapped in a $4k sell order.
Sure, but I kinda feel like BTC will grow slower than its rivals.
It took me a long time to figure out, but I think I know why altcoins crash when bitcoin does so. It's simply psychology at play. Once people think there's a correlation, there is a correlation. Once people see bitcoin drop, they pull money out of all their coins so they can buy the dip. It's a self fulfilling prophecy. Some coins don't react this way because it depends on the coin. Doge, at least when it was under 10c, seemed to ignore what bitcoin does. That, I believe, is because it's largely a community of holders, it's cult driven and people don't pull their money out when bitcoin drops, so doge doesn't drop with it. Of course there are lots of speculators, but I think most people are holding and waiting for $1+. I suspect doge will really struggle to pass $1, though it'll approach it.
theres lots of self fullfilling prophecies as well ....like support and resistance ......which is basically what i'm exploiting ...everyone has heard of it so they look to sell once it has hit its tops and started to drop and when its dropped they are looking to see if it goes through resistance and jumping in and buying when it bounces.
They are scared of missing out on the pump if it continues on instead of reversing . I dont care i've set what i want to take out of the trade and then move on to the next buying opportunity. if you wait to see what happens you usually buy dearer and sell lower than you could have on the coins i'm trading.
different story though with coins in a long term up or downtrend . those are the long term holds and coins to get out of
I exploit support and resistance, too. Different take on it with what I'm doing, but it's a good measure of what kind of difference I can expect to see over a period of time. If there's plenty of resistance, it gives me a solid idea what my maximum buy back price can be. Likewise, solid support means I can use it to set my minimum sell price. Anything beyond those figures is a bonus, but it helps to analyse the market to see if it's worth sticking around. Currently there's something like 20% difference between support and resistance, so I'm active.
Up to 8.8m
you're a multimillionaire lol
I just really annoyed a fat whale. I'm employing really aggressive tactics to keep in front of the queue. I kept placing 1m sell orders in an instant to counter a rival. He showed me his roll with a huge motherfucker sell order, it was something like a fucking quadrillion coins, I didn't count the zeros but it was clearly intended as a fuck you to me. It was worth $40k ish I think. The order didn't stay there long. Made me laugh. I've been dominating to the point I'm actually tired. It's kinda exhausting. But there's such huge gains I feel like I'm stupid to not carry on. Tonight is good. I'm back above 10m. That 0.66 $BNB is basically free now.
Splitting he orders is an insanely good tactic, haven't seen anyone else obviously doing this but it allows me to have an order ready to instantly respond to a challenge. If my rival has all his sell in one order then he has to cancel it and edit it, which takes a few seconds. I'm winning lots of trades this way.
are you putting in conditional sell and buy orders ? .....i.e i'm putting a limit buy order in and then theres a conditional trade box you can tick on kraken that then lets you put a limit sell order automatically at the price you set once you have bought.
so you can buy and sell once overnight/during the day without having to be around
looking at it it looks like the volatilty has reduced a lot which must be making the trading marginal at best?
I don't think bitmart has that function. And the volatility with safesun is fine, 21.76% the swing between the last two trades, which I profited from.
12.4m once this buy order fills. I've made close to $100 since my last update.
Buy order filled. I have 11.4m, there must have been someone else's 1m order hidden in mine. Still, insane profits. I had 10m half an hour ago.
Ok I now have 5.5m safesun and 1 whole $BNB
Fucking awesome night
wow bigger dump than i was expecting BTC 47k
haha fuck me I haven't been watching.
Now might be a good time to buy bitcoin.
6.2m
Right I'm fucking done for the night, Jesus. I'll put in a sell order ($230) overnight in case it pumps, leaving me 3m to keep playing. That order probably won't fill, but I'll be delighted if it does. But this is the kind of low market cap low liquidity coin that organised pump and dump groups might target. Hope so.
Shit me I wish I'd waited to buy $BNB, it's nosedived. Fuck you bitcoin.
Lots of people will be filling up right now though. It's bargain season.
put 2k on binance last night and managed to pick up BNB@603 VET @.178 ands MATIC @1.06
I just made a pretty stupid mistake. I typo'd in the buy box and literally bought coins off myself. That's 10% written off.
one advantage of holding even the smallest amount of BNB on binance is that it reduces your limit commision rate down to .075.
doesn't look like you can set up a conditional sell as part of the purchase or vice versa ......may need to investigate more ....but kraken seems an easier interface with the disadvantage of higher fees ..... downside is they dont have bnb , matic or VET available
My latest tactic is to accept a break even trade in order to squeeze out others, in the hope they get bored and frustrated and look for another market to hustle. This is fun.
ADA pump has just about got me back to where i was before the crash
A week ago my binance balance was around $1500 and my bitmart balance was under $100
Today they are both $1000, binance slightly better but I'm willing to bet it won't be in the morning as I expect BNB to recover faster than dent.
I'm at 10.5m safesun again, which means that the BNB coin is free, and so is the 10m extra coins I have compared to a week ago. Basically a $900 week.
If I get to £6500, I'll have to declare it to the benefits office and sign off. That will be a fucking pleasure.
I've got $50 worth of mooncunt on metamask too. I'm quite happy to forget about that though.
That's the savings threshold. I'm pretty sure that I'm borderline working here, but since this isn't a guaranteed income, and my assets are under the savings threshold, it's not a problem. That's certainly the case with poker.
I'm obviously not ready to sign off yet. $2k won't last long with no income. I'd be back on benefits within two months, and have no assets. It's definitely in both my interest and that of the taxpayer for me to keep grinding.
It's very tempting to cash out a bit of money and buy a big fuck off bag of weed, but I feel like that would be somewhat reckless.
I mean, I would like nothing more than to be earning enough money to support myself. I don't take pride in having to live off state handouts. It's just preferable to a job I hate. But if this last week is something I can repeat, then it's a matter of time before I'm in business.
if you have to sign off , you effectively become self employed which would let you
claim cost of computer, monitor etc as cost of business
claim part of your rent/electric as part of your operating costs
claim subscriptions for things like trading view as operating costs when related to your "work"
claim any accountancy fees against taxable profits etc
downsides are that as your job is effectively trading crypto , the income is more likely be treated as income tax rather than capital gains.......this is where your accountant would come in
Never had to deal with benefits .....but are you supposed to be declaring your "profits" to dole office as income ? no idea on that
It's a grey area, kinda like poker but even less clear. Poker is considered by the govt to be gambling, so it's clear that if I win less than the savings threshold, it's no different to winning on the lottery. Crypto trading is not gambling, it's self employment. It gets difficult though when you consider that the govt does not consider crypto to be "money", it's an asset. So it's basically like a painting until I sell it. With this in mind, I haven't made any profit yet, since all of my crypto remains "asset", not "money".
I'm not going to pretend to be 100% sure how it works, and there's definitely an element of me wanting to remain ignorant on the matter as I'd rather not know if I should be declaring this already, but it seems crazy. If they tell me I'll lose benefits, then I'll have no choice but to stop trading. That doesn't help either me or the taxpayer. So morally I'm quite comfortable with how I'm handling this. I treat it like savings, and when I hit the threshold, then I'll treat it like a business. .
BIM56850 - Financial traders - instruments and shares: case law and individuals
In the past, the approach taken in deciding whether a company is carrying on a trade of buying and selling shares and other financial instruments has been different from that adopted for individuals. The basis for this lies in the comments of Pennycuick J in Lewis Emanuel & Son Ltd v White [1965] 42TC369. At page 377 he said:
‘The word “speculation” is not, I think, as a matter of language, an accurate antithesis either to the word “trade” or to the word “investment”: either a trade or investment may be speculative. On the other hand, it is certainly true, at any rate in the case of an individual, that he may carry out a whole range of financial activities which do not amount to a trade but which could equally not be described as an investment, even upon a short-term basis. These activities include betting and gambling in the narrow sense. They also include, it seems to me, all sorts of Stock Exchange transactions. For want of a better phrase, I will describe this class of activities as gambling transactions…’
For companies, however, the position was different. Pennycuick J said:
‘it is much more difficult to bring the activities of a company within the class of gambling transactions. An individual may do as he pleases: a corporation must act within the limitations of its memorandum of association…where a transaction can be brought within the scope of an authorised object - e.g. investment or dealing - one would not readily treat the transaction as having been carried out … in pursuit of an unauthorised object e.g. gambling. In other words, one expects a trading company’s activities, apart from capital investment, to be by way of trade.’
Pennycuick’s view that, for individuals, share transactions could amount to investment, trading, or speculation falling short of trading, was followed in Salt v Chamberlain [1979] 53TC143. Oliver J said:
‘Where the question is whether an individual engaged in speculative dealings in securities is carrying on a trade, the prima facie presumption would be, as Pennycuick J suggested in the Lewis Emanuel case, that he is not. It is for the fact finding tribunal to say whether the circumstances proved in evidence or admitted take the case out of the norm.’
So for individuals we take the view that transactions in shares which do not amount to investment are speculative transactions falling short of trading, unless there are particular factors which take the case ‘out of the norm’. There is more on this at BIM56860.
Shares which are dealt with speculatively or as investments are dealt with under the Capital Gains Tax rules. For futures, options, and contracts for difference (including swaps), see BIM56880 and BIM56900.
BIM56860 - Financial traders - instruments and shares: three cases involving individuals
An activity of buying and selling shares and other financial instruments undertaken by an individual will normally amount to investment or speculation falling short of trading unless there are factors which take the case ‘out of the norm’ (see BIM56850). Three cases where such activities have been considered are:
- Salt v Chamberlain [1979] 53TC143,
- Wannell v Rothwell [1996] 68TC719, and
- Manzur v HMRC [2010] UKFTT 580(TC).
Salt v Chamberlain
The Commissioners in this case found that Mr Salt was not trading, and Oliver J held in the High Court that the facts entitled the Commissioners to come to this conclusion.
Mr Salt was a mathematics graduate who used his knowledge of computers to forecast the movements in share prices. In the period 11 December 1968 - 31 March 1973 he entered into approximately 200 transactions for the purchase and sale of securities, which included put and call options and settlements at the end of an account for balances only. He used his own funds as well as borrowings from the bank and against life assurance policies.
Wannell v Rothwell
Mr Wannell had previously worked for a commodity futures dealer as a trader prior to the commencement of his activity. His duties had included advising clients on long-term investments and short-term trading opportunities in commodity futures and options. He had obtained qualifications relevant to his duties and, in the course of his own activity, had access to market reports and analysis but not a full screen service. All the transactions were placed with a broker. There were 11 purchases and sales of commodities between May and October 1986 and 46 purchases and 49 sales of shares between October 1985 and August 1987. He dealt on his own account and there were no customers.
The Deputy Special Commissioner said:
‘The essential point in the present case is that of organisation. Was the Appellant, doing two or three deals a month from home through brokers, but doing them with the benefit of experience, training and contacts which he had, organised in a way that a trader could be said to be organised? The case is very close to the borderline, and if the only question I had to decide were whether the Appellant was trading, I might be inclined to give him the benefit of the doubt and find that he fell, by a hair’s breadth, on the trading side of the dividing line.’
This case considered not only the question of whether Mr Wannell was trading but whether he was trading commercially for the purposes of relief for losses (see BIM85705), and the Deputy Special Commissioner concluded that:
‘a case which is so close to the trading borderline because of its lack of commercial organisation is bound to be on the wrong side of the [loss relief] borderline.’
When this case came before the High Court, Robert Walker J found that the Deputy Special Commissioner must be taken to have found that Mr Wannell was trading, but also that he had had sufficient evidence before him to come to the conclusion that the activity was not carried on commercially, so the losses could not be set off against general income. There is more information on losses in this context at BIM85705.
Manzur
Mr Manzur was a retired surgeon. He used his own savings to begin acquiring stocks and shares. He made between 240 and 300 trades in a year using an online stockbroker. Some of the shares were turned over very quickly but others were retained for six months or more.
The tribunal held that Mr Manzur’s buying and selling amounted to the management of a portfolio of investments rather than trading. They upheld the view in Salt v Chamberlain that the badges of trade were of limited value and said there was no definitive checklist which could be used to say whether someone was trading or not. The number and frequency of transactions, and the short-term nature of the holdings alone did not establish trading. Other factors taken into account were:
- the time spent on the activity (about two hours a day);
- the fact that Mr Manzur did not entirely rely on his own expertise but used the advice of brokers;
- that the activities were not characteristic of established share dealers, for example Mr Manzur had no customers and was dependent on market movements alone to make a profit.
Conclusion
The cases discussed above show that no one factor can determine whether an activity has been taken ‘out of the norm’. Some factors may be more relevant in some cases than in others. You have to take a view after considering the relevant circumstances as a whole.
So ..in conclusion .......its a grey area lol
Yeah, and this is for stocks and shares, not even crypto. I'm not even sure if the govt treat them the same.
I'm not sure either if, when the time comes, I should be paying CGT on every transaction, or just on profits that are turned into fiat. If it's the former, that kinda makes this prohibitively difficult for me to continue. I can't track every single transaction I make, it would take far too long to calculate, and it would be very expensive to employ an accountant for that purpose. If I trade safesun into USDT and then back to safesun, making an on-paper profit of, say, £20k at the time of the trade, should I pay tax? The asset is still safesun. I believe, and hope, that I'd pay tax when I put that money into my bank. While it's a cryptoasset, it's not real profit. That coin could crash overnight and my profit falls to £10k, under the threshold. Or it could increase and the taxman would be due more. If I'm being taxed per transaction, and when I cash out into fiat, that means I'm being taxed twice for the same asset.
I intend to pay CGT on anything that goes from an exchange into my bank account. I might have to pay income tax instead, I'll cross that bridge when I get there. But I'm not going to pay tax twice on the same asset.
when you sell you create a taxable event ii.e you sell safesun thats a taxable event and you buy usdt thats another taxable event
when you sel lthe usdt thats another taxable event and when you then buy the safesun again ...thats another taxable event
you need to keep a record of all of your transactions
you need to read those crypto tax manuals lol
the taxman makes sure they get paid and if you hide stuff you will pay financial penalties until you pay them
I'm not fucking reading manuals. The taxman will get paid, just not twice. And I'm not keeping records of transactions when I make multiple buy and sell orders per hour. That's basically another way of saying "nope you can't make money like this buddy".
Surely the taxman wants me to make money. If the taxman is demanding double tax on my profits, then I'm not going to make any money and he gets the square root of fuck all.
you only pay the tax based on the taxable events which is the buys and sells not when you withdraw
But what I withdraw is actual profit. And assuming my coins go up in value, it's better for the taxman to tax my fiat profit, rather than my crypto profit.
I mean, I'm not even going to cash out any fiat unless it's profit. So given that, I'll actually be paying more tax, not less, if I just pay CGT on what I transfer into my bank. I'd rather pay 10% on my cashed out profits than keep detailed records of a ridiculous number of trades, or pay an accountant. So they can investigate me all they like, do all the work that I can't be bothered to do, then give me a rebate.
This can't be right. Let's assume I bought 100 bitcoin in 2010. And today I cash it out. Since I haven't made any trades other than my initial purchase, there's no tax due at all. But this is ludicrous as I've made an insane profit.
It doesn't make sense to be taxing individual trades rather than withdrawals.
Wait, if I want to cash it out, I have to first turn it into £GBP. There's your taxable event. Ok fair enough on this one.
But, assuming I worked this bitcoin from 1 to 100 over the course of many thousands of trades, I'm being taxed twice, since I owe tax on every transaction, then the final transaction to cash it out.
There's definitely double taxation issues here.
No this still doesn't make sense. Trading 100 $BTC into an equivalent amount of £GBP is a zero profit transaction.
In fact, all of my trades are zero profit transactions. If I sell 1m safesun for $50, I have made no profit, since the 1m safesun is worth $50.
The profit is coming from the difference between my initial investment compared to what I withdraw.
I don't think our tax policy on this makes any sense, assuming your take on it is accurate.
CRYPTO22100 - Cryptoassets for individuals: Capital Gains Tax: what is a disposal
Individuals need to calculate their gain or loss when they dispose of their tokens to find out whether they need to pay Capital Gains Tax. A ‘disposal’ is a broad concept and includes:
- selling tokens for money
- exchanging tokens for a different type of token
- using tokens to pay for goods or services
- giving away tokens to another person (unless it’s a gift to their spouse or civil partner)
There is no disposal if the individual retains beneficial ownership of the tokens throughout the transaction, for example moving tokens between public addresses that the individual beneficially controls (commonly described as moving tokens between wallets).
Using a mixer, tumbler or similar service so that the individual receives the same type of tokens that they put into the transaction also is not a disposal. However, it will constitute a disposal if the individual puts token A into the transaction and receives token B in return.
If tokens are given away to another person who is not a spouse or civil partner, the individual must work out the pound sterling value of what has been given away. For Capital Gains Tax purposes, the individual is treated as having received that amount of pound sterling even if they did not actually receive anything.
If Income Tax has been charged on the value of the tokens received, section 37 TCGA 1992 will apply. Any consideration will be reduced by the amount already subject to Income Tax.
If an individual donates tokens to charity, they will not have to pay Capital Gains Tax on them, see CG66620P. This does not apply:
- if they make a ‘tainted donation’
- where the individual disposes of the tokens to the charity for more than the acquisition cost so that they realise a gain.
Don't worry Ong, I'll come and visit you in prison.
Here's the thing. If I "dispose" of a "token" by trading it for another coin, including $USDT, at the time of the transaction, the "gain or loss" is precisely zero. One bitcoin is worth, say $50k. All I'm doing is trading one item for something else of equal value. Zero profit.Quote:
Individuals need to calculate their gain or loss...
- exchanging tokens for a different type of token
Selling tokens for money is the "final transaction" i was talking of earlier, where you said tax isn't due on withdrawals. Based on what you just posted, yes tax is due on withdrawals, as that amounts to a "disposal".
Profit is coming from appreciation in value. In my case, it's a microappreciation measured in seconds or minutes. I'm buying, then selling at profit, then spending the profit on more coins, then selling, rinse and repeat. These are all transactions where, at the precise time of trade, I am exchanging one asset for something of exactly the same value. If that value changes a few seconds later, that's irrelevant. I'm exploiting that short term differential. But I'm not making "profit" on any one transaction. I'm always breaking even. The profit comes from appreciation, and that profit is only realised when I convert crypto into fiat.
CRYPTO22200 - Cryptoassets for individuals: Capital Gains Tax: pooling
Pooling under TCGA92/S104 allows for simpler Capital Gains Tax calculations. Pooling applies to shares and securities of companies and also ‘any other assets where they are of a nature to be dealt in without identifying the particular assets disposed of or acquired’.
Where the nature of the tokens means they are dealt in without identifying the particular tokens being disposed of or acquired then the tokens should be pooled as per TCGA92/S104(3)(ii) (CG11820). This is commonly referred to as a ‘section 104 pool’. If TCGA92/S104(3)(ii) applies then the beneficial owner of the tokens will have a single pooled asset for Capital Gains Tax purposes that will increase or decrease with each acquisition, part disposal or disposal.
Non-Fungible Tokens (NFTs) are separately identifiable and so are not pooled.
Each type of token will need its own pool. For example, if a person owns bitcoin, ether and litecoin they would have three pools and each one would have its own ‘pooled allowable cost’ associated with it. This pooled allowable cost changes as more tokens of that particular type are acquired and disposed of.
Individuals must still keep a record of the amount spent on each type of token, as well as the pooled allowable cost of each pool.
Same day rule
TCGA1992/S105
Where an individual makes acquisitions and disposals of a particular type of tokens on the same day then the same day rules ensure that the maximum number of CGT computations the individual will need to produce for that token type is one per calendar day.
When tokens of the same type are acquired and disposed of by the same individual on the same day and in the same capacity then:
- all the tokens acquired shall be treated as acquired in a single transaction
- all the tokens disposed of shall be treated as disposed of in a single transaction
The tokens acquired will, as far as possible, be matched with the tokens disposed of so that those tokens don’t go into the section 104 pool:
- if the quantity of tokens acquired exceeds the number disposed of then the excess tokens will then be considered for the 30 day rule (covered below) and if that doesn’t apply then they will go into the section 104 pool
- if the quantity of tokens disposed of exceeds the number acquired then the excess tokens will then be considered for the 30 day rule (covered below) and if that doesn’t apply then they will be treated as a disposal from the section 104 pool.
Acquiring tokens within 30 days of selling
TCGA1992/S106A
If an individual disposes of tokens and then acquires, in the same capacity, tokens of the same type within the next 30 days then:
- the same day rule (covered above) is applied first if applicable
- the tokens acquired to which the 30 day rule applies don’t go into the section 104 pool but instead are matched to the earlier disposal (or disposals) of tokens
- the tokens acquired to which the 30 day rule applies are matched to disposals on the basis of earliest disposal first
- if the quantity of tokens so acquired exceeds the number of tokens disposed of in the preceding 30 days then the excess tokens will go into the section 104 pool.
Further guidance on these rules is at CG51560.
Sure, but I'll have to rub the weed on my ballsack first so the sniffer dogs don't out me.
Not sure what the gov't does here, but I'm guessing they do something like look at your transactions and say "hmm, Ong bought 100 bongcoins this year at 0.001c ea. and then later sold them at 0.002c, that's a profit of 0.1. Then they say "Ong bought 100 spliffcoins at 0.001c and at the end of the tax year they were trading for 0.002c, that's a profit of 0.1." Then they tot those up for all your coins you've bought and sold in the tax year to figure out how much your profit is.
Better start keeping records is my advice. But surely if the gov't can find out how much you made in a year then you can as well, no?
I definitely want bongcoins and spliffcoins, to go with my $cunt and $ass.
I mean, I'm not even sure if the govt can track my activity. Binance is Chinese, and Bitmart have offices in China, Hong Kong, Seoul, and New York. It would be a lot of effort to take a look at my affairs, especially if I'm paying CGT, when you consider there needs to be bilateral cooperation, plus I'm as small a fish to fry as it gets. Why bother for what must be at most £1k or so in tax evasion?
I don't actually need to, the exchanges keep records which I have access to. However, I have 20 pages, with 30 transactions per page, in two days alone. This is an insane amount of work to calculate a small amount of tax. I mean, I'm nowhere near the tax threshold yet anyway, by the time I get there I'll have thousands of pages of transactions. I obviously can't be going through 50k+ transactions, and if I hire an accountant it will cost a fortune, which incidentally would be tax deductible and result in me paying less or even no tax. I might even be legally justified in deducting a reasonable sum for my time calculating my tax obligations, and it'll be a lot more than minimum wage. So it's a right fucking mess, frankly.Quote:
Better start keeping records is my advice.
What keith just posted suggests my daily profits, or monthly profits, are relevant here. But again, I can only accurately calculate this by factoring in every single transaction, so it's not cutting out the work. And we're still ignoring one important factor... that each individual transaction is a zero profit transaction in isolation. I need a pair of transactions to show a profit (or loss).
I'm just going to pay CGT on my withdrawals. Or maybe income tax. I'll take advice on this when the time comes. I'm not going to process every transaction though, nor am I going to hire someone else to do it for me.
I seriously doubt that's how they look at it. Otherwise people could just keep trading up and never pay any tax. What are you going to tell them when you started with £200 worth of bongcoins and then a year later trade your bongcoins for a house? "It was a zero profit transaction, m'lord," is not going to get you out of it I don't think.
CG and income are different things. You're making CG by trading, not income.
I mean if you know how much you started with in fiat value, just compare that to what your coins are worth in fiat at the end of the tax year. If it's less than £12.3k more than you started with then don't sweat it. If it's more then pay some accountant £100 to sort it out. I doubt he will have to sit down and go through every single transaction though.
Like if you own a pub, the taxman says pay us x% of your profits. You figure out your profits and pay the x%. You don't have to go through every single drink and food order and bag of crisps you sold and add them all up. Same thing here I would think.
You're missing the point. I can't buy a house with bongcoins, I have to "dispose" of them by trading them for fiat, only then can I buy a house. There's where they should be taxing.Quote:
I seriously doubt that's how they look at it. Otherwise people could just keep trading up and never pay any tax. What are you going to tell them when you started with £200 worth of bongcoins and then a year later trade your bongcoins for a house? "It was a zero profit transaction, m'lord," is not going to get you out of it I don't think.
The point remains, if I trade 1 bongcoin for 10 spliffcoins, the value of 1 bongcoin at the instant of that transaction is 10 spliffcoins, it was my transaction that determined the value. That's zero profit, because I traded two assets of equal value.
I hope you're right, because that reduces my tax burden. CGT is less. But I'm sorry but your word on this isn't enough, I'll need to take advice to make sure I'm paying the right kind of tax.Quote:
CG and income are different things. You're making CG by trading, not income.
I think it'll be more than this, but essentially it's costing me nothing so long as it's less than the due tax, since accounting is tax deductible.Quote:
If it's more then pay some accountant £100 to sort it out
What keith posts implies differently.Quote:
I doubt he will have to sit down and go through every single transaction though.
I hope it's this simple. But when it comes to crypto, there's debate on what "profit" is. I'm arguing it's what gets turned from crypto into fiat. keith is arguing that it's the profit per transaction, which I believe is zero. This is why it's not very simple.Quote:
Like if you own a pub, the taxman says pay us x% of your profits. You figure out your profits and pay the x%. You don't have to go through every single drink and food order and bag of crisps you sold and add them all up. Same thing here I would think.
You first have cash.
Then you sell it for [something, like a crypto] for price x.
Then after a while, you sell [something, like crypto] for price y.
If y>x, the excess is taxable as cgt, starting from your allowance limit.
Each transaction you make from cash to asset and back is counted.
Or well, that's how it works here, so I'm assuming it's the same there.
I am definitely pissing people off with my mega aggressive tactics. There's currently a huge buy order blocking any profit, but that doesn't stop people from desperately trying to get ahead of others lower down the queue. I'm kinda bored so it's fun to just annoy people. As soon as they give up, I remove my buy orders. It's psychology. I want them to know I'm an asshole. This one guy just spent a good ten minutes edging ahead of me. Now he's parked lower down the queue after thinking "fuck this". To me it's entertainment while I wait for this massive buy order to fuck off.
Actually I'm trading crypto for crypto. $USDT is not fiat, it is a cryptocurrency.Quote:
Then after a while, you sell [something, like crypto] for price y.
Only when I trade it for £GBP (or another fiat currency) am I actually selling my coin.
I think there's some people who are making a fortune doing what I'm doing. I see huge sell orders appear, then disappear, and I suspect it's a whale who wants me to fuck off so he can have the market to himself. It's worth him breaking even for a while to squeeze me out. I'm a real problem for these guys because I'm taking 2% a time, and blocking them in the process. They are greedy and want 10%+, but I'm aggressively challenging them. With me around, and others challenging me, the market quickly goes from 10% gains to 2%. I won't let people have it easy.
It's really quite fun.
Only made 1m today (around $30), it's been tough. Long periods where there's just no profit, and when I have been able to trade it's not much profit.
I do wonder if any of you guys have found this market, or if these posts are being read. Don't really give a fuck. I hope they know how much fun I'm having making $30 so they can't make $100s.
This (if it's true, and I doubt it is) only works as long as you always hold all your assets in coins. As soon as you buy something with them, or convert them into fiat to buy something, then you'll have to admit you've made money.
CG is what you gain from investments. Income is money you earn from a job, etc.. It's not all that complicated, google it.
If you're audited they might do that. But to audit you they'd have to have a suspicion, like suddenly you're driving a bentley and living in Belgravia, while paying £30 in CGT. Otherwise I doubt they will.
Could be that your profit isn't measured until you convert it back into fiat, but I doubt it, and it's kind of irrelevant in the long run. Either way you can't spend it without paying tax.
Like, say you buy some gold bars at a rock bottom price. A year later they're worth twice as much. Do you get taxed on the increase in value? I suspect you do, but even if you don't, at some point you will sell them again (convert into fiat), and you'll be taxed on the profit.
An electrician came by my house the other day to do an inspection. He was really into it, explaining all about circuits and wattage and which lights were most energy efficient and so on. After about 30 sec my eyes glazed over and I tuned him out.
That's pretty much the same that happens when I see someone posting details about trading in crypto, sell orders, buy orders, whales, etc..
Ong ......this may sound like an asshole and i get you're having fun .......its like dicking around on 2nl where you know you have the other guys outclassed ........
But don't lose sight of the end goal.
You want to get off benefits doing something you enjoy and a house of your own . You arent going to get that by dick waving contests cutting the profits out of any trade ......if theres no upside and a lot of downside risk you are getting into some seriously wealth challenging water.
you made 30$ doing that , i'm now up $1500 on the value i posted this afternoon. you are now sat on a bad table ....move tables and churn some other coins instead
USDT is a stable currency worth $1 so you know the value of the trades that you are making. if you trade it into another crypto the selling price is the $ or £ value of the BTC or shitcoin at the time of the transaction and the transaction history will usually give you that fiat value. HMRC will website has a monthly conversion rate that you can use for converting $ values back to £ .
Indeed. But I'm not doing this, it stays as crypto until the day comes it goes into my bank. I'm not trying to avoid tax, I'm just obviously reluctant to be taxed twice for the same asset.Quote:
Originally Posted by poop
I know. However, trading and investing are different things. If I'm spending my day trading, that's a job.Quote:
CG is what you gain from investments. Income is money you earn from a job, etc.. It's not all that complicated, google it.
Like I say, this isn't me trying to avoid tax. I'm just keen to keep it simple, and pay a fair amount. If I'm driving a Bentley, rest assured the taxman has 20% of my fiat profits at least.Quote:
If you're audited they might do that. But to audit you they'd have to have a suspicion, like suddenly you're driving a bentley and living in Belgravia, while paying £30 in CGT. Otherwise I doubt they will.
The govt can't be taxing gold. By that, I mean, if the value doubles, the taxman can't expect to get a slice until that profit is realised, by liquidation. They're taxing the fiat.Quote:
Like, say you buy some gold bars at a rock bottom price. A year later they're worth twice as much. Do you get taxed on the increase in value? I suspect you do, but even if you don't, at some point you will sell them again (convert into fiat), and you'll be taxed on the profit.
If your house goes up in value, you don't owe the taxman anything. Not until you sell the house.
https://www.theblockcrypto.com/post/...e-since-launch
This is important shit that you should consider as well .
USDT only have 3% liquid cash reserves from their own figures and a lot of the assets backing up the $ value are crypto assets.
You may say ...so what ...... the problem is that there will come a bigcrash at the end of the bull market and people will then want to cash out their cryptoto USDT and will then probably want to cash it back out to their banks. Normally they get away with having such low liquid assets , but on a market crash/end of bull market and lots of people wanting to cash out their crypto back to fiat , the crypto assets propping up the reserves have now crashed in value and and tether may not be able to honour the $1 price which means that the fiat value of that USDT may crash to a % of 1$ and once it starts falling their will be a cascade effect /run on the bank with everyoine wanting to get their cash out while they can.
on kraken i'm selling back into USD and on binance it looks like i'll be selling into BUSD instead.
Binance is really clunky to use though i think with the benefit being lower fees .
Keith, I appreciate your point, however my goal right now is to basically build a roll. I'm playing 2nl crypto right now. That's where I am.
There's not really a downside to this, not unless I make trades that come at a loss. Or if the coin collapses entirely leaving me with a big fat bag of fuck all.
I'm up $600+ on the week. Today is just a slow day. This is as bad as it gets really. I can't lose, I can only make a small amount instead of a decent amount.Quote:
you made 30$ doing that , i'm now up $1500 on the value i posted this afternoon. you are now sat on a bad table ....move tables and churn some other coins instead
You're doing so much better because you're not playing 2nl like me, you're big cheese stakes.
Sure, but $USDT is a cryptocurrency. It is not fiat. It's just pegged to fiat.Quote:
USDT is a stable currency worth $1 so you know the value of the trades that you are making.
I'm seeing a new whale tactic. It's quite amusing. Some guy is spamming the buy order column with relentless $5 orders of different values. There's also a huge $4k order in there. This is someone responding to my aggression. It's hilarious.
I don't think this is the case. It's a grey area, as those legal cases Keith posted suggest. The courts might have to decide if what you're doing is trading, investing, or speculating. As an individual, I think I'd be speculating, but I'd want professional advice on this when the time comes.
This is definitely someone trying to piss me off. But I KNOW he doesn't want to spend $4k on safesun. Dickhead.
I really hope whoever that is has found this thread.
Attachment 1217
This is one thing i love about Kraken bought and sold the crypto less than 2 hours later for a nice 6% profit while i was asleep but equally applies through the day . You dont have to be constantly scanning the history to see if you bought /sold to set up the next trade. You can then edit the conditional trade once it becomes the main trade when the first trade has gone through to add the conditional buy/sell to it .
this is the basis of the error you are making .
the profit on a trade is not the difference between what you sell an item for and what you buy the next item for .
the profit on the trade is the difference between what you paid to buy the asset and what you received when you sold the asset.
when you buy a new assets with the proceeds you are setting up a new trade with a new profit/loss when you sell that asset.
your profits are the sum of all the profits for all of the completed trades you have done.
the good news for you though is that the tax year runs april 6 to april 5. if you send in the tax form you have to send it in by sep 30 or if you do it online (usually by an accountant) it has to be in by Jan31st the following year. the online form will give you a printout of how much you have to pay which they have to receive by Jan 31st otherwise they will charge you daily interest on the tax owed.You'll then also be told if you have to make a down payment on the following years tax by july 31st.
Attachment 1218
ADA pumping this morning ....this is just the exodus wallet which is 93%+ ADA
yep, well sum of all profits on disposals in the tax year less your free annual CGT allowance
I didn't get round to reading that tether thing but it doesn't really matter, I use tether but I don't sleep on funds in tether.
keith you might like my change in strategy. Assuming my current buy order fills (likely), I'm up to 28m. I'm now kind of one of the big stacks. There's still obviously 100m+ folk, but I've stepped up. I now know I can't go putting 10m orders in aggressively because shorts will obviously challenge me, and if profits are squeezed it's hurting me more than him. So I've started being more passive, instead I'll sell my coins just before a wall of resistance, and then load up in front of support. The current wall of resistance is pretty huge, so chances are good that I'll buy back in. If not I have 10m and the tether will go into $BNB probably.
It's much calmer. It was fun being a small stack and being an asshole, but I was merely building a stack. Now It's a different game.
Ong, get in the discord
You guys are actually using it? Fine.
if anyone else wants access drop me a dm
How y'all doing?
it hurts
everything hurts
Wallet went from +200% to +40% in less than a week, but I'm hodling like a pro.
I've bought 0.66 $BNB @$360. I tried to make money in safesun, I had a really nice opportunity but some guy ruined it for me. The price was around 1000 but there was such little support I could sell a relatively small amount of coins to crash the coin, which I did, to 200. I crashed the coin 80% with one trade. No fucking shit. But before I could buy coins at rock bottom price, someone put up a wall of support. What an asshole. I'm waiting on a buy order to fill, if that succeeds then I'm breaking even, with money banked into $BNB.
1.66 $BNB (currently worth around $680 but it's rock bottom price)
5m safesun ($70, should pump around 100% when it recovers but not worth risking my BNB for)
$35 USDT
That's where I'm at from an initial investment of $10, which bought me just over 500k safesun
I don't understand why when the price goes down to 200, someone puts a huge buy order in at around 800. Why would you try to buy coins at a much higher price than you can? Whoever that was definitely wasn't trying to make as much money as possible, they were trying to stop the price of the coin crashing further. Or trying to stop me making a fuck ton of money, but it costs him an order of magnitude more to stop me. idk, but it was interesting. I can't believe I was actually able to crash the price of a coin by 80% with a tiny trade worth $50-odd.
It's probably Elon Musk. It's not about money to some people, it's about power.
https://i.imgflip.com/11woht.jpg
Everything in crypto is Elon Musk.
It would be funny if he was the puppet master of the whole crytpo thing and making billions off it, and you guys are just like those little fish that feed off the fin of the shark.
I'm in no doubt the guy is making a huge amount of money by playing off crypto. Why else would a supposedly smart guy like him jump on the "bitcoin is dirty energy" bandwagon? He knows it's still orders of magnitude cleaner than banking and gold mining. He knows the dollar is pegged to oil. It's a stupid argument. So I'm left assuming he's using his massive influence to influence the markets.
"Bitcoin is dirty energy" is an odd turn of phrase.
IDK what an expanded explanation of his meaning would reveal, but in a vacuum, that's just a weird sentence.
Assuming by "dirty" he means pollution, Bitcoin is only as dirty as the grid producing the energy.
It's not bitcoin that's dirty... it's the energy grid that's dirty.
Not the best language, but it refers to its carbon footprint. The problem is that mining bitcoin takes computer processing energy, and if that energy is non-renewable, it's dirty. Bitcoin mining is dominated by China, which uses mainly hydroelectricity during the rainy season and coal the rest of the year.
Of course, you're right, it's not bitcoin itself that is dirty, it's the grid. But the incentive is there to use fossil fuels to mine bitcoin, as it's the most efficient in terms of cost/reward ratio, and time.
But to reject bitcoin on the basis of being "dirty", it's stupid because fiat and gold is so much dirtier, in terms of energy demands... gold needs digging out of the ground, so does the metal we make coins from, notes are now plastic, money needs security and transporting, banks need heating, and staff which have to travel to and from work, their executives travel the world, fiat is absolutely fucking filthy compared to bitcoin.
The common comparison has become Argentina. That's how much energy bitcoin uses. The same as Argentina.
Of course, that little nugget rarely comes with any kind of context. Year on year? Is bitcoin getting better or worse? When articles mention Argentina, they don't go into detail about how much energy banks use compared to any given country. It's clear there's a media campaign to cause a loss in confidence in bitcoin. The price has crashed the last few days, if you knew this was coming you'd make a lot of money. More so if you knew when the markets will turn positive again.
There's a lot of deceit going on when it comes to these kind of things. People have agendas, and rarely is that agenda the greater benefit of the planet.
Nice try, Elon.
Which stablecoins you guys using? I figured out I can use a deemed acquisition cost for taxation purposes, so trading is actually on the table.
advantage of kraken is that you can buy and sell back into USD or GBP or € which avoids any funding issues with stable coins.i.e USDT only has 3% cash reserves with much of the backing being other cryptos which causes its own problem that when everyone wants to cash out at the end of the bull run the reserves will have crashed in fiat value at the point when everyone will be wanting to cash out back to fiat.
I use tether USDT but I don't keep funds there, and it's only a matter of convenience. My crypto money is pretty much always either in a coin, or locked in order. I'd only be holding tether if I knew the markets were going to crash, and even then I'd be holding until I bought the dip rather than cashing anything out. idk about the 3% reserves problem that keith mentioned, it's beyond my grasp when we consider the liquidity is tied to non-stable coins too, but so long as everyone doesn't try to cash out their tether at the same time it shouldn't even be a problem. I think most people just hold the bulk of their tether for the purpose of trading at a later date.
Which is fine most of the time
This is where the problem starts to come in , by the time you get to know that the market is going to crash you will be creating huge demand along with everyone else who is selling expecting the crash as well. It's also likely that you wont get time to sell high.....i.e like last weeks dip .....did you sell at the peak and /or buy at the bottom ?Quote:
My crypto money is pretty much always either in a coin, or locked in order. I'd only be holding tether if I knew the markets were going to crash,
When will you buy though ? What happens if its the end of the bull market and prices keep going down ?Quote:
and even then I'd be holding until I bought the dip rather than cashing anything out.
this is the huge problem with that line of thinking .....Quote:
idk about the 3% reserves problem that keith mentioned, it's beyond my grasp when we consider the liquidity is tied to non-stable coins too, but so long as everyone doesn't try to cash out their tether at the same time it shouldn't even be a problem. I think most people just hold the bulk of their tether for the purpose of trading at a later date.
At the end of the bull market people will buy the dip , prices will bounce and peak lower but then crash lower and rinse and repeat. People will then stop buying the dip which will prevent the rallies and prices will keep going lower .
That is the stage where people will want to withdraw what they have left in crypto which will become a feedback loop , so that cash is removed from tether, tether has to realise the fiat currency to cash them out by selling their crypto holdings that have now reduced in value which puts further pressure on prices until they get into full tilt territory where people are asking to withdraw to fiat and they have no quickly realisable assets to pay the withdrawals.
Withdrawal times will become extended , this will be reported in the news channels and there will then be the bank run on tether with everyone trying to cash in there tether at the same time , i.e like happened in greece when they got into trouble and the rest of the central banks in europe put harsh limits on national spending in exchange for a bail out loan .
Saying you'll only worry about it when there's a crash is the time when its too late to do anything about it. Once the liquidity problems show up the tether will no longer be backed 1:1 for usd so it will no longer be a stable coin and the price of it will crash along with the value of the crypto that is forming the basis of its realisable assets. This will also impact your ability to buy at the bottom of the market with tether usdt as the usdt will only be worth a fraction of 1$ instead of 1$
No, I didn't sell at all. As far as I'm concerned, I lost and gained nothing from assets I held. The markets will get to where they were sooner or later, if it takes weeks or years. It's looking ok out there right now.Quote:
Originally Posted by keith
The only trading I was doing was with safesun, with profits going into BNB. If I knew the markets were going to crash, of course I'd want my assets in a stable coin, but I don't know that and I can't know that.
Like I say, I don't hold tether. It's a tiny risk to me. If it does collapse, then I'll use a different market pair. I guess if I have high confidence another crash is coming, I should sell up and trade my tether for an alternative stable coin to avoid the problems you describe, but it's unlikely I'll have enough confidence in major market moves for me to take that risk in the first place.Quote:
this is the huge problem with that line of thinking .....
Tether really is just a coin I use for trading.