Just say 'reductio ad bananum' and move on.
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Tony Martin shot two burglars in the back as they were leaving. He should've shot them when they were coming in.
Day one, they were scouting. They woukd've seen I was in. Day two they show up at the same time. It seems to me they didn't think they were seen day one, so thought they could get away with it day two.
They could be burglars. They could also be locals who knew the house was unoccupied and aren't yet aware someone has moved in. There's lots of valuable stuff in empty houses... boilers, copper pipes, all sorts. But they came back when I was in... I really do think they were looking at the oil tank. It's a problem in rural England, and its visible from the lane. If that's what they were doing, they won't be back because they know I have their reg.
I slept ok last night.
Of course I leave the house, I have a job now. I'm working from home the rest of this week though, just because I don't want visitors while I'm out.
And by "working from home" I mean drinking tea and smoking spliffs while still only wearing underwear, faffing about on ebay.
Yup.
Also Florida is nice and warm year round, and as far as I know has a law where if someone comes into your home uninvited you can kill them no questions asked. Seems perfect for you.
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-43164634
fucking luuuuuuuuul
Yeah because a security guard, let alone a teacher will risk their live to execute a student that's going allahu akhbar in the cafeteria.
How is that funny? How does that even support anyone's political position? How does that reflect badly on anyone other than that "guard"?
It is!
edit: complicated
I thought it was.
What a shame.
Also, I'd be more inclined to say a teacher will be MORE likely to put his life on the line for the benefit of children.
Something to do with what compelled him to be a teacher in the first place.
Even if it was effective, it's the equivalent problem solving to buying a fire retardent suit if your kitchen is on fire. Or taking scuba lessons when your basement is flooded, and then rambling on about how the plumber union is not going to run your life.
I think you missed the point about "something about what compelled them to be teachers in the first place".
You might get the odd teacher who agrees to have a gun and then bottles it when shit hits the fan. Just like you get the odd security guard who shits his pants. I think most of us here would do more than he did, let alone a teacher.
You mean the desire to risk their lives for other people's kids? Don't think that's what motivates many teachers.
Meh, handgun vs. AR-15, I wouldn't really like my odds. Of course if it was my job I might feel obligated to run in there and probably die, but mostly to avoid the shame of being a huge pussy, not 'cause I love kids.
Pretty sure that guy had his fair share of heroic fantasies. But there's a divide in the person you think you are when you're looking at yourself in the mirror wearing your favorite holster and the person you are when you hear a faint popping sound followed by screams of terror over in the next building.
Does anyone really think that guard represents the average person?
Oskar is right in that you don't know who you really are until you're put in that situation. I'd like to think I'd do more, and would be ashamed of myself (perhaps suicidal) if I didn't. But that suicidal caveat... there's my motivation to act.
We're talking about one coward here. Noone has yet pulled up another guard who did fuck all. We have one coward guard, and one dumbass teacher who accidentally shot a kid. Stacked up against the number of dead kids we have thanks to maniacs, it's not close is it?
Are you guys really just hearing about this now? This has been in the news prominently since about 5 minutes after the shooting.
Part of the problem is that the guy was a coward. There's not much you can do about that. I mean, there are probably psych tests that cops have to take and from that they can figure out who's a pussy and who's a stud. Then give the pussies the really easy low risk jobs.....like guarding a school where nothing happens 99.9999999% of the time.
Another part of the problem is training. It's not clear how well trained this officer was to deal with this particular situation. That is surprising and sad. One of the beneficial side-effects of school shootings, is that law enforcement has been able to develop advanced techniques for this exact situation. Now there is widespread literature on effective methods to confront shooters. If that training was not implemented, then this coward cop deserves decidedly less than full blame.
Even if the training was implemented at some point, it's clear that it was not well reinforced. One of the details that's swirled around this story is the lack of drills, practice, and refreshed training. There's a reason we put soldiers through hell all day every day even in peace time. It's so that when the war starts....they'll be able to call upon their training, and suppress instincts of fear and doubt. In crisis, your mind goes to what's rehearsed, familiar, and comfortable.
Didn't the first three cops from that county show up and hide behind cars too? Or is that some liberal progapanda.
Also, think there was another dumbass teacher a couple weeks ago who accidentally discharged their firearm but with no injuries.
So up the first number from 1 to 4 and the second from 1 to 2.
All that training costs money. If the US wasn't so concerned with spending such a large chunk of its GDP on keeping its military trained and armed to the teeth to face imaginary threats like being invaded by Canada, maybe they would have more to spend on mental health and ways to prevent their own people from going on killing sprees on a regular basis.
This suggests lack of training. The probability that 4 out of 4 cops are pants-wetting pussies is really low. Especially when they are standing near 3 of their peers. Soldiers in war don't act that way.
It's clear that these cops had no fucking clue what to do, and that's a humonguous driver of the problem.
http://video.foxnews.com/v/575243592...#sp=show-clips
This sounds like something you heard in a humanities class where the professor holds class outside, barefoot, with a guitar, wearing a poncho that smells like Ong's pot drawer.
It costs exactly the same amount of money for that cop to rehearse and active-shooter drill, as it does to pay him to ride a golf cart around campus and jerk off in the bushes.
It's not a money problem. And if it is a money problem....what do you think this cost...
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DW-WhpsUQAA7B8j.jpg
My knowledge about the Florida shooting was that there was a school shooting in Florida up to a couple of hours ago. Not the type of news I typically follow up on.
Anyway... so what's the solution then? Deploy highly trained gunmen in every school? Who's going to pay for that? Take it out of the wall fund?
It's really not hard. Go watch the video I posted. The data suggests that confronting the gunman almost immediately results in the stoppage of killing. Either the gunman is overtaken by a more trained, more skilled, more courageous interloper....or once confronted, the shooter figures the jig is up and kills himself.
You an Poop keep talking about money. But that's not even a problem. The money is already being spent just putting the cop on duty. He's already there....being paid. Is it really a hectic and time-consuming job to patrol a school? are you really telling me he can't spend some of his time reviewing training procedures, conducting drills, and attending training classes (which are ALREADY available!!).
The incremental cost of giving this particular cop better training would have been exactly $0.
Why is money a concern?
No, it's much more expensive, and yes, it's a money problem. But not only that, it's not a problem that should exist because other countries do not have that problem. There's no debate on whether or not there should be armed guards in schools of other developed countries because there's no other country where students are the target of shootings like that. If it were, you'd have a point, but it's not and there are ways to deal with this issue directly that are not fucking retarded.
Your link doesn't work for me, but here's some highly trained donut destroyers at work:
https://youtu.be/qJFHPgxYpAQ?t=1m3s
Not sure how deploying that fucking Three Stooges ensemble in schools around the country is going to decrease gun deaths.
WHO TRAINS THEM?
Who works while they're being trained?
Who pays for the facility they're being trained at?
By your logic, we could put every citizen in a task force, pay them a cops wages, perpetually train them, and there you go: costs nothing, pays wages, pays taxes... economy saved!
Who trains them to be cops in the first place?
It's like any other profession that requires continuing education. Cops get specialized training all the time. If your city is having a heroin crisis, your cops will be trained to recognize heroin addicts, how to deal with them, how to identify the drug, etc etc etc. This is all built into the budget in the first place.
Who works when they take a sick day?? This is already built into the budget. Cops don't just graduate from the academy and then venture out into the world unassissted. New techniques of law enforcement are being developed all the time. They are rolled out through targeted training programs all the time. This is already happening. It's already paid for. It's already built into the budget.Quote:
Who works while they're being trained?
Again...sunk cost.Quote:
Who pays for the facility they're being trained at?
Great. Solved the economy! Wanna do free energy next?
I think the gist of banana's argument is:
1. The cops are already in the school.
2. They are being trained to do something useless, like how to talk to kids, when they could be trained to do something useful like how to take down an armed maniac.
3. fixing the problem is a matter of changing priorities, it doesn't have to cost more money.
How about all the training of armed teachers then? Do you just take them off teacher conferences and instead put them on SWAT training?
If we're gonna play the "who pays" game.....
http://www.floppingaces.net/wp-conte...l-1280x640.jpg
It's real. The lambo pic is also real, but that was a promotional thing that didn't cost the sheriff department any money. Still a real bad look though.
Yeah, like maybe the guy who's face is panted on the passenger door. But he's too busy ranting on CNN about gun laws because if people didn't have guns....his job would be alot cushier.Quote:
Someone should make the dept. spend less money on paint jobs for its cars and more on something useful?
You say this as if the actions of the Broward county law enforcement was already meeting a pre-shooting standard of adequacy. They weren't.
It's clear that their repeated dereliction contributed significantly to the circumstances that made the shooting possible.
Let's switch gears for a minute since you're so concerned with the economics of it.
If, hypothetically, the government enacted gun legislation in response to this....who pays?
Background checks cost money
Enforcement costs money
Prosecution costs money
Incarceration costs money
Laws cost money. Who pays?
Oh that is easy. The people doing background checks were already doing background checks, so sunk cost, right?
Enforcement was slacking off anyway, encourage them to do more enforcement for free.
Procecution: see enforcement.
Incarceration: jails already exist, so checkmate
Laws are already lawyering. See Incarceration.
Dun did it
Beat you at your own game.
Behold the new dunce of FTR!
No, variable costs are never sunk. More checks means more people doing checks and more people costs money.
Not more...better. It's possible sometimes, to achieve more with the same resources.Quote:
Enforcement was slacking off anyway, encourage them to do more enforcement for free
Variable cost. More offenders means more prosecutions, means more prosecutors.Quote:
Procecution: see enforcement.
Variable cost with some fixed elements. Yes the building exists, but more inmates means more food, water, and utilities are consumed by that prison. It also means more guards.Quote:
Incarceration: jails already exist, so checkmate
You wish. A shithead pussypants cop walking around with his dick in his hand costs the same as a dedicated, well trained cop capable of action. What are you missing.Quote:
Beat you at your own game.
Isn't the pussypants cop at the school specifically because he's not good enough to do a real cop job? Isn't he basically put there in a mall cop capacity?
So if you replace him with someone better trained and more capable, yeah it's probably going to cost something, multiplied by every school in the country.
http://www.foxnews.com/us/2018/03/16...food-fund.html
And we were wondering "who pays"
http://www.quickmeme.com/img/d0/d0f7...f632ee1e8c.jpg
Check this shit out. I just heard that Richard Simmons, androgynous fitness guru (I use all those terms loosely), sued a tabloid for slander or defamation or whatever the technical term is for spreading unfounded lies about a person for profit.
The paper claimed that Simmons was transgender and transitioning to female-ness.
Simmons denies it. The court agreed with Simmons. The court found that there was no merit to claims of transgenerism or transitioning and that the paper was completely erroneous.
However, the court ruled against Simmons anyway. The court said that there was nothing disparaging, slanderous, or defamatory about being labeled transgender. So Simmons lost the case AND has to pay the tabloids legal fees of $130K as punishment for suing them for a silly reason
What the fucking fuckety fuck?
It isn't a localized phenomenon. The media hates guns (and America), so they only cover the topic in terms that make guns (and America) look bad.
If I wanted to be bad at statistics, I'd talk about how Anders Breivik shot the statistics on mass killings through the roof for Norway. But I'm not bad at statistics so I won't mention it. The Breivik/Norway statistics don't tell us much; likewise these other statistics don't tell us much.
I would certainly think that mental health is an issue. Concealed carry advocates are huge proponents of mental health.Quote:
lack of mental healthcare?
Only the ones with as high of qualifications as cops.Quote:
arming teachers
More kids would be saved.
I don't think either is 'the disease" or "the symptoms". Those are in the eye of the beholder. The variables are complex and exist within a dynamic framework.
If mental health is the disease and shootings are the symptoms, then wouldn't solving mental health stop shootings? Well, not really, at least not in achievable terms. The knowledge to solve the mental health problem is not comprehensive, and even where progress is made, some people will always fall through the cracks (this is unavoidable).
This reality may be one reason why self-defense and deterrence are such mainstays for humankind since the dawn of time. I may not know how to fix every problem, but I sure can stop somebody from making their ill ways harmful to me by protecting myself.
That doesn't make any sense to me. This is clearly a problem that only exists in america. The media has nothing to do with this. Kids shoot up schools in america. They don't anywhere else in the world. So how is this not a problem exclusive to america?Quote:
It isn't a localized phenomenon. The media hates guns (and America), so they only cover the topic in terms that make guns (and America) look bad.
Sure, but I think that's an apt depiction.
I'd say solving mental health issues would stop most shootings. Whether mental health issues are fully solvable, at least for the time being, is of course a completely different issue. It's definitely not a silver bullet, that's why I'd endorse it as part of the solution, not as the solution.
As another part of the solution, as a last resort, absolutely. Though not in a way that can potentially do more harm than good. Until proven otherwise, I would put teachers with guns in that category. Armed professionals is another thing, but that brings a whole slew of other issues that at least I wouldn't want for my kids. If things escalate any more I'm sure your administration is gonna start considering preemptive drone strikes against possible targets.
https://crimeresearch.org/2015/06/co...us-and-europe/
US doesn't rank in the top ten. France is ahead of US as well as lots of Europe. Norway leads the pack by about 6x as #2
One of the main things these data show is that thinking in terms of a handful of statistics on the subject is misleading. Norway is a great example of this. Breivik skews the data like crazy.
I think thinking of these things conceptually is more fruitful than focusing on statistics that capture merely a tiny component of the whole. For example, why was Breivik so damn successful? There are many potential reasons, one of which may include that the culture of self-defense in Norway may be lacking. Breivik could not have done what he did in any region in Texas where concealed carry is common.
How much more disingenuous can you get? Are you just trying to rustle me or is this now your actual mode of operation? We're talking about school shootings in first world countries and you deny that this is an american problem, and as proof you bring up data that includes all types of terror attacks and includes countries that don't even remotely compare economically or culturally to the US.
You mean comparable to those of a security officer?Quote:
Only those with the highest qualifications.
This is laughable. You guys call for armed guards at schools. Then when a school has armed guards and they do nothing, the solution is: more and more betterer armed guards! If they do start arming teachers I guarantee that 3 years from now a teacher will shoot up a classroom and you guys will go: well, I guess it's time to arm students! But only the most select and best trained students!
Honestly your country is heading for full-on Idiocracy at ludicrous speed. I'll enjoy watching it from a distance.
And I don't agree that mental health is the main issue, because other countries have a comparative track record regarding mental health. But in other countries you can't buy an AR-15 after having been diagnosed with a mental disorder.
I'm not. Forgive me if I misunderstood you initially. I thought we were talking about mass shootings.
The link has that in addition to mass shootings.Quote:
data that includes all types of terror attacks
Depends on the kind. Secret service? Sure. Special forces? Sure.Quote:
You mean comparable to those of a security officer?
Nobody is suggesting forcing teachers to be armed (except maybe people engaging in straw man). That would be a terrible idea. I suggest allowing the handful of civilians with the highest qualifications carry in the highly targeted by wannabe mass murderers "gun free zones" just like they already carry in the not targeted by wannabe mass murderers non-gun-free-zones.
I wouldn't know much about that. There does not appear to be that big of groundswell support for this among those who prioritize civilian defense against wrongdoers.Quote:
armed guards at schools.
Caricatures and absurdities are a tell that more thoughtful consideration would be helpful.Quote:
Then when a school has armed guards and they do nothing, the solution is: more and more betterer armed guards! If they do start arming teachers I guarantee that 3 years from now a teacher will shoot up a classroom and you guys will go: well, I guess it's time to arm students! But only the most select and best trained students!
Honestly your country is heading for full-on Idiocracy at ludicrous speed. I'll enjoy watching it from a distance.
If this happens, are you to assume it's a direct reult of allowing him to have a gun in the classroon? Or is it possible that he would've done it anyway?Quote:
I guarantee that 3 years from now a teacher will shoot up a classroom
He could have done it with a compass and chalk if he really wanted to, because guns don't kill people; people kill people. More thoughtful consideration, please.
More thoughtful? Teacher lives in a country where guns are available, is a nutjob who wants to shoot kids, deciding factor whether to do it is... am I actually allowed to take this gun into school?
Please.
The teacher shooting up the classroom thing was hyperbole. And I was meming wuf with the "thoughtful consideration" thing if that wasn't obvious.
If you would ask me with no prior knowledge what the probability of a negligent discharge by a gun safety instructor during a gun safety demonstration was, I'd put the odds in the millionth percentile. Make that a safety demonstration that is being filmed inside a classroom, I'd say we're approaching an infinitesimal number. Yet there have been a number of these incidents and at least two of them inside a classroom full of minors.
While that is completely incomprehensible to me, it is happening. Now multiply the number of guns in a chaotic environment like a classroom, add overworked teachers who are so underfunded that they have to pay for school supplies out of pocket, and the fact that even trained police officers occasionally execute toddlers with toy guns, and you got yourself some dead kids. More dead kids than kids saved from other kids... maybe. Still not a solution that sounds effective to me. Especially not when other approaches are glaringly obvious.
For instance: When a kid is diagnosed by a professional to have a mental disorder/deficiency; who has made terroristic threats in his name on social media; who has been brought to the attention of the authorities - is still able to get his background check passed, buys a semi automatic weapon plus hundreds of rounds of ammunition and then stroll past the armed security officer onto the premise... how do you look at that and go: nothing to worry about here, but we better go and arm teachers because that's the obvious thing to do.