We can continue our discussion about how poop sympathises with people he thinks are too stupid for democracy here.
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We can continue our discussion about how poop sympathises with people he thinks are too stupid for democracy here.
I have a thread more appropriate for your discussion. Look it up if you don't believe me.
Can't be fucked. Been there, done that, got the t-shirt.
Nicely sums up your approach.Quote:
Originally Posted by OngBonga
Yeah except it doesn't sum up my approach when I actually have a democratic decision to make.
Ya your approach is summed up as 'i believe x, i have no evidence for x except i heard it somewhere from a guy with a fishing rod,and any data to the contrary is hence wrong.'Quote:
Originally Posted by OngBonga
This is the problem democracy tries to resolve. you can't let every idiot vote on every important decision. that's why they have a parliament.
At least this is an attempt to engage in productive conversation, even if once again you insult the collective intelligence of the people.Quote:
Originally Posted by Poopadoop
Just admit it... you think democracy sucks, that we're not smart enough to make decisions on behalf of the nation. Then I'll at least get off your back.
I've said it in the past before... democracy has its flaws, and I will agree with you that this is one of them. We do have plenty of stupid people, and a stupid person's vote is exactly as powerful as an intelligent person's vote. But ultimately I put my faith in democracy because I cannot think of a preferable system. I work on the assumption that there's stupid people on both sides, and they cancel each other out for the most part. But regardless of whether that's the case or not, I have to accept that my vote is no more important than some dribbling racist idiot, or some deluded left wing virtue signaller. Had we lost, and that includes 49.9 vs 50.1, I would accept the result, because ultimately democracy has prevailed and that is a good thing, even if the result is not to my liking.
If you don't agree with democracy, fair enough. What's the alternative?
I think it sucks when uninformed people make bad decisions that they later regret, yes.Quote:
Originally Posted by OngBonga
Well do you have a solution to this problem? And why do you think the only uninformed people are on the "leave" side? You've demonstrated otherwise. You're firmly in the "remain" camp, yet you think the EU is trade and labour, not politics. That's being misinformed. So you don't think you deserve to vote on such matters?Quote:
Originally Posted by Poopadoop
You're the one deciding that we made a "bad" decision. I don't think I did.
And again it comes back to the point... is your idea of democracy to be allowed to change your mind shortly afterwards? We haven't even left yet and you're arguing that people who have changed their mind should be allowed to vote again. You're failing to understand why this is absolute insanity.
Fuck people who have changed their mind. That works both ways, too. If we voted to stay, and suddenly loads of people wanted to leave, tough shit. Elections and referenda are not events you can "wait and see" about. You can't vote for Labour, then just before they actually take power, say "sorry I want to vote for the Tories". You've made your decision. That's how voting works, it has to for the sake of democratic integrity.
Quote:
Originally Posted by OngBonga
Put your faith in democracy*
* = as long as the system isn't gamed.
Gamed how?
- active misinformation campaigns
- dishonest actors
- incentives
- vote for pay schemes
- busing
- myteam votes
- taking advantage of the dumb fucks in general
- and many more ways
So let's assume those things are inevitable. Do you now prefer a dictatorship?
I'm just wondering what the alternative to democracy is.
A functioning democracyQuote:
Originally Posted by OngBonga
To put that another way... a flawed democracy is still an imperial fuck ton better than any other system of government that I'm aware of.
By all means, throw out some alternatives. I'm open to suggestions.
Like Switzerland?Quote:
Originally Posted by Jack Sawyer
Or like the EU? Beause that is not my idea of a fucntioning democracy.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jack Sawyer
Switzerland is my idea of a functioning democracy. They have referenda all the time. I guess their people aren't too stupid for a true democracy, unlike the UK.
Switzerland is also one of the wealthiest nations on the planet. How did they manage that outside the EU?
Quote:
Originally Posted by OngBonga
That's the classic slippery slope we are confronted with.
Anything > Dictatorship/Fuedalism
We have stumbled upon democracy being better than. However, the democracy is being ran a lot like a dictatorship but without the actual dictator part, but a group of dictators instead.
I'm sure you heard of this finest example of democracy in action by now?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=taQpiz8cWqY
So, I'm not disagreeing with you. The outcome is what I want, a simple majority. However, we the democratic process needs actual protection from bad actors, which in my view is also impossible.
The were always wealthy. Mostly as the defacto international crime laundromat, they have always benefitted from being outside every jurisdiction imaginableQuote:
Originally Posted by OngBonga
Democracy is definitely not perfect,and I agree that it is impossible to protect it from bad actors. That means it's up to the people to do their best to filter out the crap, see through the lies, do as much as one can do to educate oneself on the matter at hand. I can't be certain I've not been influenced by propaganda or lies, in fact it's probably likely I have been. But that is still preferable to either making a decision based on nothing, or having decisions made on my behalf.Quote:
So, I'm not disagreeing with you. The outcome is what I want, a simple majority. However, we the democratic process needs actual protection from bad actors, which in my view is also impossible.
Yeah their banking system certainly helped them get to where they are today. They are a tax haven. It probably wasn't wise to refer to their wealth, because it's not like it came from fishing.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jack Sawyer
But their method of democracy is certainly something to behold. Referenda are the purest form of democracy. No complications like constituents or college votes and all that bollocks. Just pure majority. They're not free of the other flaws that come with democracy, but I don't think there's any better options.
Membership of the EU is a matter of political and economic independence. I think it is absolutely right that the people should have a say on such a matter.
FTR really is a disaster of a forum these days :(