10NL FR - J9o in SB

Player pool reads: There are 2 basic types of players on Bovada: deep stack and short stack. In general, a player's stack size when they first sit is a very good estimate of that player's skill.

Regs have a decent pre-flop game as far as bet-sizing, but are generally too loose from EP and MP. They generally treat aggression with aggression OTF and OTT, and become docile OTR.

The short stacks are level 0 thinkers who will chase anything to the river if you let them. Their lines are either strong or nonsensical, usually indicating either strength or a bluff / random bingo.

Pretty much everyone treats an open like a limp, while giving 3-bets get too much respect.

All reads are subject to random spew from anyone at any time (unfortunately, myself included).



Bovada, $0.05/$0.10 No Limit Hold'em Cash, 9 Players

BB: $5.42 (54.2 bb)
UTG: $2.59 (25.9 bb)
UTG+1: $3.91 (39.1 bb)
MP1: $9.50 (95 bb)
MP2: $12.51 (121.5 bb)
HJ: $9.88 (98.8 bb)
CO: $10.03 (100.3 bb)
BTN: $2.80 (28 bb)
Hero (SB): $14.77 (147.7 bb)

Preflop: ($0.15) Hero is SB with J:s:9:c:
UTG folds, UTG+1 limps ($0.10), MP1 folds, MP2 folds, HJ folds, CO raises ($0.28), BTN folds, Hero calls ($0.23), BB folds, UTG+1 folds

Thoughts?

Flop: ($0.76) J:c:2:h:2:s: (2 players)
SB checks, CO bets ($0.45), SB raises ($1.30), CO folds

Thoughts?

This was very early in my session. I was quite rusty and as soon as I submitted that c/r OTF, I felt like I'd really screwed it up. I hadn't accounted for the weakness of both of our hands, based on his sizing PRE. I hadn't accounted for the fact that I'm turning a hand with equity into a bluff. I was playing basic level 0 poker and it slapped me in the face immediately.

Thoughts?


EDIT: added player pool reads 'cause ImSavy is right.

Seems a pretty standard flat. I can't really think of arguments for anything else w/ no reads on the individual or player pool as a whole.

isn't this an ez fold pre and a c/c on flop as played?

@Savy: You are absolutely right. I added some player pool reads to OP.

@D0zer: In retrospect, I agree. This hand was in my first hour of play after a year and a half break.

Mistakes were made.


I just want to get multiple perspectives on the variety of errors in this hand... since it was a train wreck... and maybe explore some better options.

Sorry, I read preflop as you completing after a few people had limped. I think you should be folding pre too.

Does anyone else think that completing from the SB with J9o in a limped pot is a solid play?

Does it matter how many limpers?

If so, at least how many limpers before you complete w/ J9o?


With what other hands do you complete the SB in limped pots?


What are you thinking about when deciding whether or not to complete the SB in limped pots?

Fold pre. C/ c flop. Fold as played. JT+/Axss/Kxss/Qxss/A2 and not enough bluffs.

Completing depends on odds and opps.
If all limp and there are donks You can profitable complet any combo

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Razvan729

Fold pre. C/ c flop. Fold as played.

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Fold PRE. Got it.
As played:
OTF: Are you saying c/c or c/f?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Razvan729

JT+/Axss/Kxss/Qxss/A2 and not enough bluffs.

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I'm not sure which question this range is in response to.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Razvan729

If all limp and there are donks You can profitable complet any combo

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"If all limp and there are donks" seems redundant. :p

Yeah... if ALL limp, then ATC is profitable so long as you have high standards for what makes a "good" hand post-flop.

If NONE limp, then that's something else entirely.


I want to demystify what's in between those extremes.

This is one limper and a raise and although his raise is stupidly small you're going to have issues being profitable w/J9o OOP. The fact that the original limper can also be limp/raising here with a strong range (any reads he does this with crap are good, lots of people only do this with nutty hands) and we only really like life on T8x flops is pretty meh. We also don't get tempted into calling too many streets with trash like a pair of Jacks no kicker.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by d0zer

isn't this an ez fold pre and a c/c on flop as played?

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^ this
calling pre here is super-spew.
check-raise on the flop ain't getting any value...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by MadMojoMonkey

Does anyone else think that completing from the SB with J9o in a limped pot is a solid play?

Does it matter how many limpers?

If so, at least how many limpers before you complete w/ J9o?


With what other hands do you complete the SB in limped pots?


What are you thinking about when deciding whether or not to complete the SB in limped pots?

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can't imagine this situation comes up a whole lot?
completing sb with J9o is probably neutral at best even with a couple of limpers and a big blind who doesn't seem aggro.
thing about limped pots multiway is that you really want to be pretty nutted to be getting it in vs heat post-flop.
so, hands that do well on that front are good, basically pairs (although you'll be raising a few of these up rather than completing), Axs, and some high scs and gappers. Downside about even J9s is how happy are you going to be stacking off with the flush on 468s? what about 64s on 764rb?

the hands you raise with in this spot is worth thinking about, and sizing to try and get HU and then take down a pot on the flop with one bet.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Razvan729

.
If all limp and there are donks You can profitable complet any combo

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disagree 100%

My general strategy for limping the SB is to overestimate my implied odds when there's any donks because I am genius and will outplay the donks always every time.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ImSavy

This is one limper and a raise and although his raise is stupidly small you're going to have issues being profitable w/J9o OOP.

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I think this is exactly what I wasn't thinking when I called. I saw the weak open (less than 3 bb) and I thought, "$0.28...that's weak... J9o is OK, I have my SB in this, so my range should be a bit wider, just don't be chasing anything slim post-flop... OK," call

It was bad-thinking and I was failing to realize that my response to what I saw was terrible. I wasn't even thinking about the initial limper, or how he would respond to the raise. I wasn't thinking about board textures that would work well for me.

Train coming off the rails

Quote:

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Originally Posted by daven

can't imagine this situation comes up a whole lot?

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Limped pots are common on Bovada 10NL, judging from yesterday's experience. I jumped in at 10NL because of my time off, I intend to step back into the 25NL tables once I've shaken the dust off. I assume the limping is less common at higher stakes, but I don't know. I remember it still going on at 25NL a year ago, but 10NL is different now (more players using more sensible pre-flop sizing to open), so maybe 25NL is different, too. Small sample on 10NL from 1 day of play.

In the past, I refused to limp from the SB. I would raise with a strong range or fold. I'm not sure that extreme approach is optimal, but it's better than spewing like this hand.

I think I'm playing both decision points differently.

This is a very standard fold pre imo. Also a very standard flop flat.

I suppose I can see raising in a very specific dynamic, where you had been raising often and you expect villain to play back light or float light etc. But as a standard, definitely calling and calling almost all turns.

C/c a bet. C/f vs b/raise w/ 2op like here

I would probably fold pre flop.
On the flop I would only made a call.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by STILL_mkd

I would probably fold pre flop.
On the flop I would only made a call.

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Why?

If you fold J9o, is there any range you would call PRE?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by MadMojoMonkey

Why?

If you fold J9o, is there any range you would call PRE?

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It's probably not horrible to significantly minimize cold calling out of SB, especially vs non-btn openers.

I'd probably save cold calling to pairs/mid pairs, mid SC's (89s, 9Ts, JTs), higher suited or off suit hands (QJo, KJo) etc.

That's still a fair bit of cold calling.

The consensus seems to be that given that we called preflop, we should C/C the flop. But, then what is the plan?

What do we do on the turn if a brick hits? Obviously, it would help to know if you have seen him dbl barrel often. If he is a one and done cbet type, then C/C is fine. But, if he tends to keep firing, are we calling to the river with that hand?

What if an overcard hits? If he is a thinking player at all, he is definitely dbl barreling. A K on the turn would be a great scare card for a hand like 88 who wants to fold out exactly what we have. Are we just bluff-catching to the river?

If we think our villain's raise size indicates some weakness, then I think his range is dominated by lower PP's and broadways. Against that range, we are doing well, but we are also very vulnerable. Sure, he only has 6 outs at best, but we don't know which 6! And, an overcard is likely to fall something like 45% of the time by the river. Betting is not always about just folding better hands or getting value from worse. It can also be about protecting your hand when you are vulnerable. (given pot size, likelihood of losing, etc)

If someone did a detailed EV breakdown, I'd be surprised if C/R is that much worse than C/C. Heck, maybe a donk bet might not be the worst option here. But, I hate all three...which is why I would have folded preflop w/ no hesitation.

How often do we say "I'm only calling to flop a strong hand in a multiway pot.". Then, we flop a very weak top pair, and stick with it despite our preflop promise.