Psychosis

The last few days have been interesting for me.

A close friend has been sectioned under the mental health act. Basically, he took a trip about nine days ago, and hasn't come back. He's suffering from paranoid delusions, and his behaviour is illogical and bizarre. The trip he took was definitely the trigger, before that evening he was fine.

Background - the drug he took that tipped him over the edge is called 2-CB. I've never taken this, although I've once taken 2-CE, which is similar. He's also been smoking a lot of DMT over the last 6 months or so. This is something I've done twice, and it's not something I would do on a regular basis. It's potent stuff, and it's come as a surprise to find out just how much he'd been smoking the stuff. I guess I naively thought he knew what he was doing.

His gf is one of my closest friends, she's the reason I'm friends with this guy. He's been living with his gf for a good few years, currently with his gf's parents in the family home. Although he's very welcome there and should not feel this way, he feels worthless because he's living with his gf's folks at 26. He's a very intelligent guy, one of the few people in my circle that I consider significantly more intelligent than myself.

So mentally he's not been in a great palce for at least a year, and he's been regularly taking powerful drugs. Although noone saw this coming, and it's come as quite a shock to us all, the warning signs were there and it's fair to say a few of us feel pretty bad right now.

As far as I'm aware, there is no history of mental ilness in his family, and he has shown no obvious signs of psychosis or paranoid delusions in the past.

Do any of you guys have experience with substance-induced pyschosis? Is this something that people tend to snap out of? And if not, is it something that can be controlled so my friend can resume something nearing a normal life? We're obviously pretty worried right now.

Sorry to hear it, Ong.


One of my closest friends in high school went full crazy in his 20's.

I, too, thought he was one of the smartest people I've ever met.

He did a lot of psychedelics for many years. Over that period, he became more and more reclusive from anything that was not our group of friends, and so we didn't see that he was closing himself in. Then when he was around less and less, we started to look for him and whatnot... friends keeping touch.

It wasn't the same guy when we got in touch with him, though. He was fully paranoid that random inanimate objects were government spying devices. He was afraid of children. He would not engage on any conversation on our level... he just always questioned us and thought we were trying to manipulate and control him.

I don't know if the cause-effect is clear about him being attracted to psychedelics. In retrospect, it's clear that he was an odd duck from the beginning, and that the gradual change he underwent in his late teens / early twenties really had started before he was using.

He never trusted any of us after that time. We were no longer his friends - from what we could tell he had no friends. It was hard to use any word but crazy when we talked about him. We later learned about Aspirghers (sp?) and every listed symptom had us nodding and saying his name. We're not professionals, but it seems clear that what is going on with him is a bigger picture than merely drug use.


None of us had the money, but in retrospect, if he had gotten himself to a professional psychologist instead of turning to drugs... well, who knows?

Yeah I have 3 friends who have either had or still have delusions. One an old high school friend I got in touch with again 2 years ago and the other 2, a guy and a girl, I met through him.

They're all great people (sociable) with above average intelligence. I've come to see it as them essentially being the misunderstood. Your brain goes through every day by planning everything you do and it uses the elaborate patterns stored in the neocortex (which represents your view of the world as your brain has learned it) to figure out what to do. If your brain can't find a way anymore to plan which leads to living a life where you feel good and respectable, it can shut down. People will get depressed or suicidal. And if they take drugs, it alters their perception and their brain can come up with the weirdest interpretations of reality.

In my limited experience with these things, there are two ways our brains will go, you either get a god complex or paranoia or a combination of both. God complex is when their brain shuts down planning for anything so it is free to see them as the center of the universe and paranoia is when fear kicks in, they'll start to see conspiracies everywhere that are holding them back. It looks to me that these delusions happen in times of extreme mental stress. I can see their faces contort when this happens, it's scary. But they're mostly harmless though. You get stuff like having conversations about how the illuminati are controlling everything, how he could move at the speed of light, how his ex-gf was always dressing up and visiting his upstairs neighbour, the camera's and microphones that were always filming us. I lost touch with this guy but last I heard he thinks he's the ultimate power of the universe. Your brain can come up with some weird shit.

About your friend, I've heard people say you can get 'stuck' in an LSD trip (is that what acid is?), I've never seen this myself but your friend should be motivated to find some valuable things he can do to get out of these delusions, to see that they aren't real.

While we're at it, let's legalize all drugs.

Sorry about anyone who has friends or family members or other loved ones who were hurt by this kind of shit.

Cheers guys.

Looks like the next few days are going to be equally as interesting. Buddy's parents have flown back from holiday, we have an angry dad asking who certain people are. I think some people have had to remove certain things from their houses in case the police start sniffing around. This is gonna get worse before it gets better.

A few things jack said rings true. He thinks he's got people after him, like scientoligists or a cult, something like that. He woke his gf up a few nights back because he thought she said "get him in the van" while she was sleeping. He even tried to get out of a taxi as it was slowly going round an island because he was afraid he was being taken somewhere horrible. He also seems to have a guilt complex, like he needs to make amends for something he's done. This seems to have a religious tone, depsite him being atheist.

And yeah acid is lsd. That's mild stuff compared to DMT, but still pretty heavy. I do acid maybe once every 6 months. It's fun. DMT is like a super strong acid trip, condensed into 10 minutes. Users can expect full on trips best described as out-of-body-experiences. 2-CE is similar to lsd in potency and effect, so I'm told. I was interested in it but never got round to trying it, and I'm unlikely to now. I'd only expect someone to not come down from lsd if they do too much. One trip is very unlikely to disturb you to the point of full blown psychosis. But the drugs he's been doing, it's not possible to say that. He's been pushing boundries, that's clear.

At the moment he's being observed in a hospital. Other than psychosis, which is better described as a symptom, there's no diagnosis. So he's not being medicated yet. I'm not sure what method of treatment he's going to get. We're hoping he snaps out of it, but that kind of feels naively optimistic.

spoon I agree, all drugs legalised. That attitude doesn't change with a friend of mine losing his mind. How many pyschotic episodes happen thanks to alcohol? Banning drugs doesn't stop people from taking them. It forces people to make this shit themselves, or buy it on the black market, which is much more dangerous than a regulated market. And we're at the point now where chemists simply change the chemical structure slightly to make it technically a different compound, meaning it needs its own legal classification. In many cases, drugs are legal because they're so new the law hasn't dealt with it yet. That of course is also very dangerous - users are legally using hallucinogenic drugs that have not been studied. Maybe they wouldn't if the law said it's ok to eat magic mushrooms ffs.

Banning drugs is stupid. Addicts should be treated as sick, not as criminals.

As a matter of principle, I think all drugs should be legal, and I think taxes from the proceeds should be used to give help to addicts and to mitigate the increased levels of healthcare costs to the taxpayers due to drugs being legalized.

(On a similar matter of principle, albeit a bit of a tangent, I think that employers should have a right to drug test any employee whenever they want, however they want.)

As a matter of personal interest, I think that it could make it easier to get ahead in life if we were competing against more drug users.

Sucks about your friend.

I don't see how those two principles work together.

Why should an employer have the right to force a drug test on an employee if it's not illegal? How is that not outright discrimination? Do you think that employers have the right to see an employer's voting history so they can fire republicans?

I completely agree that drugs should be legalised and taxed, with proceeds being used to boost the health services who treat addicts.

Same way a employer can have issue with alcohol on an employee. Particularly if it's a machinery operator, driver or someone in control of quality. Just because it's legal doesn't mean you can use it at work

Having drinks after work is way different than having drinks before work. (You can tell 'cause clocks)
I don't think anyone's saying it's OK to be hopped up on gooseberries while you're working.

It makes sense to ensure a non-hopped surgeon. Or anyone whose job involves weapons. Or places where carelessness can cause injuries, like near machinery or vehicles. Etc.

Do we need to drug test farmers?
Or nearly everyone in the world who has a job where not potentially seeing human injury is a normal day.

If so... how do we deal with the damned self-employed?
They're a danger to our chil'rens!

It seems like the default should be leaving people alone to invent their own prosperity.
So long as it's not infringing on their performance to do what they're hired to do.
Also they should be fairly cool about things and not go all "Kill humans!"
Ever.

If default fails, then put them in a frictionless vacuum or something... I'm a physicist not a criminal justicist.

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Originally Posted by OngBonga

I don't see how those two principles work together.

Why should an employer have the right to force a drug test on an employee if it's not illegal? How is that not outright discrimination? Do you think that employers have the right to see an employer's voting history so they can fire republicans?

I completely agree that drugs should be legalised and taxed, with proceeds being used to boost the health services who treat addicts.

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I believe an employer should have the right to fire anyone for any reason they want if that is a part of their contract with the employee. Along these lines, I think an employer should be able to only hire people who agree to be drug tested on any interval that the employer sees fit. If you do not want to be drug tested, then you do not have to work there. As with your example, I think that an employer should be able to deny employment to someone because of their voting history. It's not about having a right to see it so much as having a right to put seeing the voting history in a contract which the employee has the option to accept or decline.

As far as the discrimination claim, a part of the definition of discrimination is that it's an unfair treatment. If they have the option to accept or decline a contract that includes those terms, then there's nothing unfair about it.

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Originally Posted by spoonitnow

I believe an employer should have the right to fire anyone for any reason they want if that is a part of their contract with the employee. Along these lines, I think an employer should be able to only hire people who agree to be drug tested on any interval that the employer sees fit. If you do not want to be drug tested, then you do not have to work there. As with your example, I think that an employer should be able to deny employment to someone because of their voting history. It's not about having a right to see it so much as having a right to put seeing the voting history in a contract which the employee has the option to accept or decline.

As far as the discrimination claim, a part of the definition of discrimination is that it's an unfair treatment. If they have the option to accept or decline a contract that includes those terms, then there's nothing unfair about it.

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As far as I know it is really required for an employer to ask or demand for Drug Test Result before the Job is offered, it's really risky if they will not do it.

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Originally Posted by MadMojoMonkey

Having drinks after work is way different than having drinks before work. (You can tell 'cause clocks)
I don't think anyone's saying it's OK to be hopped up on gooseberries while you're working.

It makes sense to ensure a non-hopped surgeon. Or anyone whose job involves weapons. Or places where carelessness can cause injuries, like near machinery or vehicles. Etc.

Do we need to drug test farmers?
Or nearly everyone in the world who has a job where not potentially seeing human injury is a normal day.

If so... how do we deal with the damned self-employed?
They're a danger to our chil'rens!

It seems like the default should be leaving people alone to invent their own prosperity.
So long as it's not infringing on their performance to do what they're hired to do.
Also they should be fairly cool about things and not go all "Kill humans!"
Ever.

If default fails, then put them in a frictionless vacuum or something... I'm a physicist not a criminal justicist.

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Yeah I'm not talking about forcing all employers to do it, etc.

Hey there Ong.. I'm just reading this and wanted to post to say I'm sorry to hear about your friend.

Times are really hard for just about everybody... no joke.

I have some older extended family members who still live in the U.S. who've been griping about "kids these days" for the better part of 3 decades (the "I had to wipe my ass with a Sears catalog page and walk to school 10 miles barefoot in the snow" type).

What they don't realize imo is that we humans have nearly an infinite amount of feedback to digest from moment to moment compared to two generations ago, and it can be very difficult to concentrate. This leads to seeking methods of escape, which leads to even less motivation to focus on our situations in the here & now.

Personally I've never tried any of the "hard" drugs. I did the dope thing earlier in my life but quit once I figured out that it was only a means of escape and wasn't solving any issues in the here & now. In my opinion, human beings, generally speaking, are extraordinary in a lot of ways. But it does take work to start realizing one's potential, and I'm definitely as guilty as anyone else when it comes to imperfections.

Anyway, I hope your buddy gets better soon. Best wishes.

if someone is in the middle of a trip induced psychosis then the best thing for them is to be sectioned and looked after ASSUMING that friends and family are doing what they can to monitor the situation.

A friend of mine went on a pretty messy journey years ago and was committed (his father is a psychiatrist and knows the drill), talking to him ages afterwards and he said that one of the scariest things he experienced was the realisation of where he was and that he was pretty much sane again, but the inability to effectively communicate this due to the drugs he was being treated with. being sectioned is pretty serious...

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Originally Posted by OngBonga

Do any of you guys have experience with substance-induced pyschosis? Is this something that people tend to snap out of? And if not, is it something that can be controlled so my friend can resume something nearing a normal life? We're obviously pretty worried right now.

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i know a few people who are back in high-functioning leet-land after going through what you've described here. One who is now drifting and lost but surviving. I also know a couple who have died after release. Obviously no guarantees for your friend, but do what you can to make sure he's got safety and support plans and networks in place if/when he is released.
writing this has pointed out how many people i know who have gone through this shit, it's kinda scary.

I have no near experience with people suffering psychosis, but I have a fair bit of experience of very close people hiding addictions or other personal demons from me.

You and your friends needn't feel bad about how you handled it. Even people who are in a very bad way do their best to keep it together in public and in front of loved ones and save the worst of themselves for when they're alone. That, on top of the fact that we naturally assume the best of our loved ones and can't help but experience denial-induced naivete about "the warning signs," makes it very rare parents and significant others--much less friends of significant others--are able to dig them out before they're already very deep.

There's also a Genovese Syndrome of sorts that goes on with these situations where people assume that someone else will take the responsibility, so there's no need for you personally to rock the boat. I don't condone this perspective, but it is natural so if you've been guilty of it, then no need to beat yourself up over it, and just try in the future to be a better steward of our fellow humans.

Something I've struggled with a few times before is that I tend to be kind of the easy-going, bullshitting, peanut gallery type of friend to a lot of people, so people have condided in me things that they wouldn't dare tell their SOs/families/psychologist/etc because (speculation) I'm the one person they can trust won't get my panties all twisted up about it, and I'll be the one person they know won't think they're a piece of shit and tell them to get their lives together. I've struggled in these positions because I feel like I'm their last resort and am afraid to compromise my unique position, as though being "cool" and non-judgmental gives me some sort of level of responsibility equivalent to a psychologist or priest or some shit.

I only mention this because I'm sure it's not all-that-rare because I think people who have serious problems (especially addictions) are most likely to only share those serious problems with people they think will be "cool about it" and not actually make them shape up. I still haven't totally figured this one out, but it's probably best not to go over their head and "tattle" to their closer loved ones for them, and maybe in a calm and understanding tone explain that while we don't judge them for what they're going through and what they've done to cope, that it is concerning and they should seek help.

Anyway, I'm just dropping in to say that you and your friends shouldn't beat yourselves up; this happens allllllll the time. You can learn from what you've gone through and just try to improve through everything you go through, and work toward eventually being a badass hero for people in need, but you can't blame yourself for being average at handling any one situation. That's life. Einmal ist keinmal and all that.

^ being purposefully vague, by the way, because I think it applies to all the shit that our fellow humans go through: drug/alcohol problems, suicidal thoughts/impulses, gambling problems, affairs, crime, debt, unhealthy lifestyles, you name it.

Again, these are going on around us allllll the time, and you can't possibly expect yourself be a brilliant solver of everyone's problems, but I don't prefer to look at it as you're "responsible" for giving a certain minimal amount to a few certain people. It's more of a spectrum from inconceivable awesomeness to inconceivable ass-facedness. It's best to offer the help you can in as wide of a sphere as you can; you'd be doing pretty well to offer the most accessible help to the people closest to you; you're doing okay just by offering love and support to the people who need you the most; you're doing not so good to completely ignore everything everyone in your life does and just call that "their problem"; you're doing poorly by indulging people's problems.

Not quite putting 2 and 2 together on some vague warning signs from a boyfriend of a friend is smack-dab in the middle of, "Maybe there's something you could learn from this, but you're doing just fine at this being a member of social society thing."

I've always wanted to try DMT. I want to see the machine elves that will tell me other-dimensional secrets.

@surviva: :goldstar:


Thank you, sur. That put a healthy perspective into some of my troubles.

Yeah.

Long story short, my current boss is also susceptible to paranoia. Don't know what triggers it, but this is already oficially at least the 4th episode I've witnessed in 3 years. Found myself having to learn up on the stuff.

The most fucked up thing is I did not notice it at first. Only gradually did I see that something is amiss, and then the symptoms started hitting me in the face.

I'm on my way out, but I'm far too important to the ops to leave, so I don't know what to do.

In any case,

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uxktavpRdzU

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Originally Posted by OngBonga

I don't see how those two principles work together.

Why should an employer have the right to force a drug test on an employee if it's not illegal? How is that not outright discrimination? Do you think that employers have the right to see an employer's voting history so they can fire republicans?

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Because employers are responsible for their employees actions whilst at work.Kill or seriously injure someone whilst spaced out or with residual drugs in your system whilst at work and you are giving the employers a legal nightmare and potential for massive damage claims. Coupled with the fact that someone regularly off his head on drugs is unlikely to be productive why the fuck should an employer have to put up with the repurcussions of a prospective employees drug use & induced lower productivity and increased errors when they can employ a non drug user instead.

Call me an inconsiderate bastard , but at what stage do you think that regularly taking drugs that screw up your brain chemistry isn't going to have a long term effect on the chemical interactions of that persons brain.Just look at the horror stories portrayed in this thread about people who regularly abused drugs. If you'd got any sense it would make you steer clear of drugs but as usual drug takers seem to think that they'll be ok and the are in control. by the time they realize they have no control over their drug use its way too late.

Thanks for the replies guys. Reading other people's unbiased perspective helps with clarity. I've been in a bit of a bubble the last week, so it helps to see what people think who aren't in my bubble.

I have no reliable update on my friend's wellbeing. His gf went to see him a few days ago but she's been central to some of his delusions and feels it's best to see less of him at this time. Last time she saw him he didn't want to see her, saying "I just want to sleep". He hadn't slept for over a week at this point, so it's difficult to really have a good idea of his mental well being until he's had a good sleep.

keith, I understand you pov. But this is the pov of a drug user. I know that taking drugs is going to effect the chemistry of my brain. I also know that drinking will do the same. That's why we have the word "moderation". Aside from weed, I don't take any drugs regularly. I hardly drink compared to most of my friends, I have a drink maybe once a fortnight, and even then I'm talking three or four pints max. Those who drink heavily, they're taking risks with their brain chemistry, and their liver function. Those who jump out of planes risk parachutes not working. I take drugs knowing and accepting the risks. As far as I'm concerned, the pros outweigh the cons.

My problem with employers being able to enforce drugs tests on employees, it just doesn't feel right at all. It's moving into a world where those who stick two fingers up to stupid laws and smoke spliffs can become even more isolated from society just because they like to smoke weed. It's giving corporations yet more power to oppress the society they are moulding. It's just another weapon being used to turn us into a bunch of fucking drones.

If my employer tells me that I must have a blood test to prove I'm fit to work, they can stick their job, even if I'm clean. I want my employer to prove he's not a rapist. Will he show me his criminal record? I have a right to know my employer isn't a rapist. Does that sound reasonable? Why is it reasonable for an employer to know if their employees smoke weed?

If someone is taking drugs to the point that it is effecting their ability to do their job, you don't need a drugs test to see that, and you don't need a drugs test to fire them.

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Originally Posted by OngBonga

My problem with employers being able to enforce drugs tests on employees, it just doesn't feel right at all.

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If my employer tells me that I must have a blood test to prove I'm fit to work, they can stick their job, even if I'm clean. I want my employer to prove he's not a rapist. Will he show me his criminal record? I have a right to know my employer isn't a rapist. Does that sound reasonable? Why is it reasonable for an employer to know if their employees smoke weed?

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You don't have to work at a job if your employer doesn't agree to prove he's not a rapist to your specifications just like your employer doesn't have to give you a job if you don't agree to prove you're fit for work to their specifications. There's nothing wrong with that.

Brb, going to slam my head into a brick wall, but it's okay since I do it in moderation.

Why would an employer not give you a job because you failed a drug test? Obviously there are jobs where it matters but for the vast majority of them it really doesn't. If any factor affects your work to the point where you are not up to the standard required then your company should have procedures in place to deal with this which eventually lead to you being dismissed if not rectified.

The problem I'd have with it is the discrimination that it would lead to.

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Originally Posted by ImSavy

Why would an employer not give you a job because you failed a drug test? Obviously there are jobs where it matters but for the vast majority of them it really doesn't. If any factor affects your work to the point where you are not up to the standard required then your company should have procedures in place to deal with this which eventually lead to you being dismissed if not rectified.

The problem I'd have with it is the discrimination that it would lead to.

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I think the fear comes from thinking of all recreational drug users as drug addicts. I used to work at a job where a lot of the applicants would be the bottom of the barrel. It is a huge hassle to deal with addicts. Yes you can fire them, but they aren't always using at the time when you hire them. Even if you are able to fire them you can't recoup your costs of training them. And you can't fire them right away. When they fall off the wagon their performance slips but you still have to follow protocol in getting rid of them.

In short, so many reasons to not want to deal with drug addicts at work which employers lump into the same persona as any drug user.

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Originally Posted by spoonitnow

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You don't have to work at a job if your employer doesn't agree to prove he's not a rapist to your specifications just like your employer doesn't have to give you a job if you don't agree to prove you're fit for work to their specifications. There's nothing wrong with that.

Brb, going to slam my head into a brick wall, but it's okay since I do it in moderation.

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Are you cool with your employer forcing you to undergo tests to make sure you haven't been banging your head against the wall too much? Because if you have, that might affect your ability to do your job properly.

See, I love these forums. If you just put the text in front of me with no skin and told me to pick which was from this forum or 2p2, I'd know easily 100% of the time.

I, admittedly, haven't read the whole thread yet. I read the last few posts about the policy of drug testing in the workplace though and it's a subject which I have much interest in. I was just discussing this very thing that a couple of you are here with my girlfriend. She's a well educated, extremely intelligent young woman in her mid 20's so naturally this subject bears weight with her too here in America today.

The point is, and I'm glad to see others think this way, we have nothing in place to make sure that prospective employees don't have an addiction to kiddie porn. We don't make sure they don't fantasize about blowing up government buildings. We don't check to make sure they don't beat their wives. We check to make sure they don't smoke a bowl after work.

There is absolutely, positively, zero way a sane person can justify that. Alcohol? Not a problem. ANY drug? NO WORK! - That's absolutely mindless. The whole system is and it needs a complete revamping and overhaul. This is the very definition of discrimination.

I'm sorry about your friend, Ongabona. Hopefully things get straightened out. :(

How hot is his gf? you should just try and bang her imo.