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Date: May 25, 2014
Time: 4:00 PM ET (9:00 PM GMT)
Structure: 5k starting chips @ 15/30, 5 minute blinds,
Late reg: 10 minutes
Tourney ID: 912931953
Welcome to game 12 of the Gauntlet XI! Again we play HU with 5 min blinds
The game can be accessed through the Home Game group only. Details on how to join can be found here.
All side bets are otherwise encouraged.
Awesome! I thought I was gonna miss a PLO game but it's just another HU shootout!
While you lot are playing this game, I'll be drunk, baked and dancing to music in a field. That's how I like my weekend!
Sail on tossers.
Also, if someone busts keith out 1st round I'll buy them into the FTR 250 in June. Yeah I went there... a bounty of $3.30 on Keith's head.
Is Keith's head only worth $3.30!!:confused: :D ;) ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by OngBonga
This event starts in less than 3 days.
Awesome. This is the reason he Gauntlet was invented. Revenge amongst regsQuote:
Originally Posted by OngBonga
Less than 24 hours to go until this event starts!
It will be difficult to busts Keith out 1st round. I think that Keith will bust us and win 1st place :)
Less than 12 hours to go until this event starts!
Less than 6 hours to go until this event starts!
Less than 3 hours to go until this event starts!
Less than one hour to go until this event starts! The password has now been released to Qualified Members!
Reg already. Playing ring games untill it starts!
Everyone got a bye first round except Aehlmann vs eberetta1.(Aehlmann could have won first match having a pair of queens vs a pair of 6's after the flop, both players all in. Good ole Jokerstars put up the 6 to give the match to eberetta1, instead).Quote:
Originally Posted by OngBonga
So, to reiterate. Keith had a bye his first round.
2nd round, Keith vs. eberetta1. eberetta1 won when A7 held up to A2. You can keep the bounty, OngBonga, U.S. players cannot get real money put on pokerstars.
Good game guys...
what difference does that make ???Quote:
Originally Posted by eberetta1
Personally , i thought it was a lousy game , if you want to shove every other hand thats up to you. I rapidly got pissed off with it though. If I wanted to play russian roulette i'd use a real gun. I considered just concentrating on my cash game tables and using the max time before folding but that wouldn't have been fair on everyone else playing and then having to wait. I always thought the gauntlet was meant to be a social event as well as a test of skill. Congratulations , you've proved that you think its neither. It's obvious why you're playing all the freerolls you can find, you certainly have the game for them.Quote:
2nd round, Keith vs. eberetta1. eberetta1 won when A7 held up to A2. You can keep the bounty, OngBonga, U.S. players cannot get real money put on pokerstars.
lol fair enough, remind me when USA lets pokerstars back that I owe you a bounty! Thanks for busting keith nice and early!Quote:
Originally Posted by eberetta1
I had an awesome weekend, obviously worth missing the game for. Dancing in a muddy field through rain, and enjoying it regardless, how very fucking English of me.
hahaQuote:
Originally Posted by Keith
Another win for the almighty Counter...PLO will be a disaster though.
Can we update the leaderboard please? Think there's 3 games to update.
Yes, I have 3 to update. I have been busy and want to get back to playing in the gauntlets as well. They will be updated before Wednesdays game so we have an idea where we stand
I frequently encounter players that raise preflop every hand to steal the blind, which is what you were doing this game with your 90 chip bet every hand while big blinds were 30. I usually fold 5 times in a row when people like you raise preflop, so conservative players like me have a distinct disadvantage in their game. I figure, I will already lose folding so many blinds. The only other alternative I find acceptable to do is an occassional all-in (about 1/10 hands) to get bully players from stealing my blinds. You do not have to call my all in, as I do not have to call all your preflop raises you bring to your game. I was getting decent hands about 30 hands into our game, so I did an all in ratio of 1/5 which still had me folding 4 hands in a row to your 90 chip preflop bets. I like to call it my maniac style of play, which I only resort to when bullied by constant preflop raises.Quote:
Originally Posted by Keith
More than happy to have a conversation at the tables. I was playing my poker game out in the yard while several of the kids played with the garden hose having water fights. Chat box was almost impossible to see outdoors. Next game I will try to stay indoors in case you would like to chat with me.
I was already tilted before our game started knowing everyone had to wait to play their first match until Aehlmann/eberetta1 game completed. I am sure him and I did several allins to hurry the game along, to make your wait shorter. And then when you are on my table, I have to absorb a barrage of preflop raises every hand. You seemed in no mood to chat, rather concentrated on playing to win pots with no showdowns.
I think it's pretty safe to say the HU tournaments suck.
you don't have a clue how to play heads up do you? You should be opening most of your buttons because its a huge advantage. You were obviously not paying attention either, I rapidly adapted to you calling all my opens completing the bottom of my range, open folding the trash and min raise the middle and 3x the top of it. Then it became apparent that you were going to shove every hand that saw the river and readapted so that min raised the top of range to trap you when you shoved the river and 3x the better middle cards and widened my open folding range as they could never stand up to you shoving every river. I just ran incredibly badly so that i missed the flop/turn virtually every hand.Quote:
Originally Posted by eberetta1
This may be educational for you but there is another option and its the 3bet to a much smaller size either a min reraise or slightly bigger . Its called playing poker .All you do by shoving is ensuring that you only get called when you are crushed and if you are doing it with your premiums you are losing value hand over fist. hmmm what did you say happened in your first round happened in your first round you went all in on the flop with a lousy pair and sucked out. The funniest part is that you think that you were constantly being bullied when you shoved every river and you claim 1/5 of your buttons( it was probably a lot closer to 1/3 of your buttons). All it came across as to me was someone desperate to win 3$ from ong by totally removing any skill from the game.Quote:
The only other alternative I find acceptable to do is an occassional all-in (about 1/10 hands) to get bully players from stealing my blinds. You do not have to call my all in, as I do not have to call all your preflop raises you bring to your game. I was getting decent hands about 30 hands into our game, so I did an all in ratio of 1/5 which still had me folding 4 hands in a row to your 90 chip preflop bets. I like to call it my maniac style of play, which I only resort to when bullied by constant preflop raises.
this was one of the first games where i had no intention of chatting as wife and kids were away and i was grinding most of the weekend. I had 6 tables of 16nl up and was concentrating on those because of the milestone promotion that stars had running. A headsup game against a dickhead calling most of my opens and then shoving the river or shoving 1/3 of his buttons held no interest whatsoever and i switched off and concentrated on the tables that i was playing for real money on.Quote:
More than happy to have a conversation at the tables. I was playing my poker game out in the yard while several of the kids played with the garden hose having water fights. Chat box was almost impossible to see outdoors. Next game I will try to stay indoors in case you would like to chat with me.
what difference does length of game take ?everyone is either doing something else whilst waiting or watching your game to get tells on you. You were surprised by standard headsup play....learn to play headsup then , no doubt it will help you if you ever final table.and lol at the last line , you made sure that there were no showdows by shoving every hand that reached the river and you already said that it was impossible for you to read the chatbox. You're right , I was in no mood to chat to a idiot playing like you were because I was concentrating on my cash game tables.Quote:
I was already tilted before our game started knowing everyone had to wait to play their first match until Aehlmann/eberetta1 game completed. I am sure him and I did several allins to hurry the game along, to make your wait shorter. And then when you are on my table, I have to absorb a barrage of preflop raises every hand. You seemed in no mood to chat, rather concentrated on playing to win pots with no showdowns.
Disagree. I love HU.Quote:
Originally Posted by ImSavy
elb, are you really complaining at someone opening every button HU? Shoving 1 in 10 hands is not what I'd call an optimal adjustment, it's spazzing, which in turn shows keith that his stratgey is sound. I had a similar game vs whoever it was that sucked his A2 vs my AK a few games back. He kept 3bet shoving when stacks were ridiculously deep. I adjusted not by raising less, but by raising MORE, because I knew sooner or later I'd pick up a hand and he'd be committed for stacks with a dominated hand.
I'd argue keith should fold A2 when you shove. I'd be assuming you're shoving a range of 22+ Ax and some KQs maybe. I don't think A2 holds up well here, although I haven't stoved it. I tend to let go of crappy ace rags HU, because they very rarely dominate in all in spots.
it was actually A3s which i figured was likely to be good against his 1 in 3 open shoves but to be honest i didn't care i was calling with any Ace or 88+ KQ .
I don't mean to take a shot at Eberetta but I am wondering what would make someone that has registered in 2009 to FTR and has all this information at his finger tips to become a good poker player play like that. Playing like a random number generator when there are strategies and counter strategies of playing poker in every style game. People that are members here have built huge bankrolls by being members here and discussing strategy. FTR regs will be living and playing in Vegas next month and spending 100,000's of dollars in entry fees earned strictly through poker to play in multiple events in the WSOP. If I had the time Eberetta had to play poker I would be back in the Midstakes games for sure with the people that are here and willing to discuss strat. Not struggling or tilting in an FTR Gauntlet or playing Freerolls.
lol 1 in 3 openshoves, yeah alright A3s is gonna be ahead of his range, but only around the 60-40 region. If he's shoving often enough, then we can surely wait for a 70-30 spot, such as AT+ 77+. I'm pulling these ranges and numbers out of my arse, but the point is if he's making big enough mistakes then I think we can fold when we're slightly ahead, and wait until we're miles ahead.
Raising all-in frequently at relatively deep stacks in no way "proves" that the player thinks the gauntlet is neither a social event nor a test of skill. It might easily be a strategic error but overall the accusations and taunts in this thread are a strange reaction to a fellow community member following an erroneous strategy. I'd be surprised and offended if I received similar treatment for my series of bad river bluffs or the like.
lets get this straight ...it wasn't frequently ....it was every frigging hand that saw a flop. all my buttons he called and then shoved river, open shoved 1/3 of his own buttons. It completely disrespected the spirit of the competition and turned it from a game of skill into a lottery. And then he has the fucking cheek to accuse me of being a bully for standard button play heads up after pulling that stunt all through the game.
He moans that the client has him in 13th place when he's in 3rd place in the official league. the reason the client has him so low is that he gets no points for all his low finishes whereas the official league he get points for every game and hes played every game. The rest of us at the top are going to keep increasing our points as our low finishes get dropped. He's got to get high finishes to increase his points now.
If I place in top 5 of the gauntlet, I will be satisfied with my poker play. I am not aggressive enough at
poker, and poker rewards those who are aggressive. Many of my winning hands I have folded to a
frequent raiser. I just do not see myself as a 3bet raiser preflop, so I try to get in hands that are cheap
to see the next card.
thats a complete load of rubbish. Poker rewards those that study and put work into understanding their equity, understanding opponents ranges etc.NONE of your winning hands have ever been folded as they automatically are losing hands when you fold them.You're just demonstrating that you have wasted your time at FTR by not getting involved in the strat forums as you don't understand any poker strategy and talk like a typical freerolling fish with that post.
You don't even deny that what i said in the post before was what you were doing. But then you say you were not aggressive enough when you ended up shoving most of the hands in the match .
You got things reversed. Your 3bet pre-flop raises every hand were disrespecting my conservative rock style of play, which is a simple game of no pre-flop raises unless one possesses a premium hand. So I changed my comfortable style of play to more of a style called gambling. I used a maniac style of play to deal with your aggressive(bully) style of play. I can see doing 3bet pre-flop raises every hand once one is maybe double and triple the chip stack of their opponents on the felt.Quote:
Originally Posted by Keith
I have encouraged many an opponent to abandon their 3bet technique and come down to my level of play, no pre-flop raises, by making it too expensive for them to continue folding their 3bets to my shove, so they have to return to regular small and big blind play. What does not work for me or you is when we get a run of bad cards or no hits on the turn or river, then nothing we do will help our game and the opponent has their way.
We each have our own styles. I respect your style of play. I see people avoid a battle when possible with you, which wins you many hands. In most of my games, four, five people will go in on any hand I am a blind. Anytime I am not a blind, no more than two or three players enter the hand.
I play aggressive enough to money a lot of tourneys, but not enough to win tournaments. I remember one of my records at FullTilt was moneying 12 games in a row, listed in my game history. No wins, but enough cashes to not be watching from the sidelines. Gotta go now. Time for Khan Academy studying, work the brain.
you don't even understand the terminology
5 years later, still playing 10/8 in HU Games.
a 3bet is not opening 3bb. the blinds are the first bet or 1bet, anyone who raises is making a 2bet and anyone who raises after a 2bet is making the 3bet. As for the rest of your post it demonstrates how little you understand about poker .
Wouldn't you be concerned that your play is suboptimal and needs to be looked at? I would. I can take critisism without being offended, especially from randoms off the internet, and even more so from experienced poker players on a poker forum.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fielmann
elb is showing that he understands very little about HU play. He considers keith's relentless button opening to be disrespectful, when it's standard aggressive HU play. If keith is opening wide enough, then 3bet wider, or call light and float/bluff etc. You're involved in a battle of wits. Shoving for huge stacks is usually going to be a huge mistake that is very easy for keith to exploit. Shame he called his A3s out of frustration, because imo making frustrated crying calls like that is gonna give back a lot of the equity that elb is giving keith by shoving.
I just ran incredibly badly , big aces were on my button that then missed while he called down and then faced a river shove, highest PP i had was 55 and 5 overcards on the board facing a shove.i'd already had to fold a 1/3 of stack to his shoves and yeah could have waited for better but before long with increasing blinds i'd have to double up just to get back to starting position and then face the same old shit from him.A3 was far enough ahead of his range that it was pretty much a snap call to get the game over or at least get a chip lead and chance to sit his shoves out and call with good equity to win the match.
Don't get me wrong, I can make the call with A3s, I'm not pretending I fold it every time, because that would be a lie. I just feel that in theory we can fold it because he's giving us so many chances to get it in good. I expect A3s to be ahead of his range, but very rarely dominant. I think we can get it in dominant if we wait a little longer. But runbad + frustration + A3s can easily result in a call, so I'm not knocking you for it at all.
The problem with elb is he's saying "I'm conservative HU and so anyone who is aggressive is being mean". It reminds me of two brothers playing football, and the younger one in goal saying "don't blast it". The whole point of poker is to exploit your opponent, that's how one gets an edge. If you don't like being exploited, well you have two options - improve or stop playing.
This is a false dichotomy. A piece of criticism can contain a solid argument (that one can and should learn from) while also containing unhealthy amounts of aggressiveness (that one doesn't have to accept).Quote:
Originally Posted by OngBonga
I understand how Eberetta's strategy, as well as his justifications for it, are flawed. What I don't understand is how being bad at poker proves that one is also antisocial, doesn't care for skill, disrespects the spirit of the competition, etc.
by making every hand essentially all in it totally removes any skill and turns the game into a lottery guessing whether your hand is best or not. Since the gauntlet is essentially a friendly competitive test of poker skills , to totally remove the skill element from a match is disrespecting the spirit of the competition. Flip this about if he was shoving every hand on you ,would you think that he was abusing the spirit of the competition and disrespecting you especially if there was a bounty on your head? Then to come out and call me a bully for playing a standard headsup game after pulling those antics all game. he's the ultimate hypocrit .
How does it make it a lottery? How does it remove any skill from the match? If someone is shoving every hand it's very easy to figure out what we should be calling with. If someone is shoving a lot then we adjust by folding weakest parts of our range instead of opening them and then widening our calling range.Quote:
Originally Posted by Keith
You are somewhat in the wrong here. The guy clearly doesn't care about how good he is he just enjoys playing poker. And you were clearly mad at the result of what happened.
it effectively turns it into adrenaline rush with all in/fold every hand. there is no post flop play knowing that the river is going to be shoved and just turns it into a nash shoving / calling chart game. hand reading goes out of the window , along with bluffing , 3betting etc.
if you read my earlier posts you'll see where i did adapt and readapt my ranges to it , but doesn't matter how much you adapt if you run bad and miss all the time. I was the one adjusting all the time , but there is absolutely zero skill required to hit all in every hand.
Oh yeah I put a bounty on keith's head, that's gonna spice it up a little lol.
Honestly, I can see both sides of this argument. I think keith is in the wrong when he says it turns the game into a lottery, because it's not a position I share. I've explained why, I feel that elb's strategy is highly exploitable, but keith didn't adjust correctly imo. It's a lottery from elb's pov, but it shouldn't be from keith's.
But elb needs to understand that his play is a lot further from optimal than keith's is. That's not a dig at elb, that's an observation based on what I've read here. If he doesn't understand why his play is bad, then he needs to study more or stagnate as a poker player. Choice is his. Getting offended by comments on a poker forum is not the best way forward. Better would be to address those weaknessess he's shown.
Not at all. The opponent always has a non-zero, non-certain chance of winning, whatever strategy he's using, and shoving maniacally doesn't make any qualitative difference here. If by shoving maniacally he's decreasing his chance, that's good news to me. If he's increasing his chance, then he's definitely playing within the spirit of the game.Quote:
Originally Posted by Keith
As for the bounty, in a HU setting a bounty doesn't change anyone's optimal strategy. If my opponent thought that he must make some adjustments because of it, that would just be one of his mistakes.
ofc the bounty played little role, seeing as elb would know he can't claim it any time soon.
Agree with this from fielmann...
Quote:
If by shoving maniacally he's decreasing his chance, that's good news to me. If he's increasing his chance, then he's definitely playing within the spirit of the game.
just checked the original post and Ong stated that the bounty was for knocking me out in the first round. Since it was the second round , tough shit to eberetta.
as for calling....against a 33% range even AKs is only a 2:1 favourite
http://www.pokerstrategy.com
Equity Win Tie
MP2 34.01% 32.06% 1.95% { 55+, A2s+, K4s+, Q6s+, J7s+, T7s+, 98s, A5o+, K8o+, Q9o+, J9o+, T9o }
MP3 65.99% 64.05% 1.95% { AKs }
ATs is 3:2 favourite
http://www.pokerstrategy.com
Equity Win Tie
MP2 40.83% 38.28% 2.54% { 55+, A2s+, K4s+, Q6s+, J7s+, T7s+, 98s, A5o+, K8o+, Q9o+, J9o+, T9o }
MP3 59.17% 56.63% 2.54% { ATs }
and TT is a 3:2 favourite
http://www.pokerstrategy.com
Equity Win Tie
MP2 40.25% 39.82% 0.42% { 55+, A2s+, K4s+, Q6s+, J7s+, T7s+, 98s, A5o+, K8o+, Q9o+, J9o+, T9o }
MP3 59.75% 59.33% 0.42% { 99 }
and QQ is a 70:30 favourite
http://www.pokerstrategy.com
Equity Win Tie
MP2 27.23% 26.85% 0.39% { 55+, A2s+, K4s+, Q6s+, J7s+, T7s+, 98s, A5o+, K8o+, Q9o+, J9o+, T9o }
MP3 72.77% 72.38% 0.39% { QQ }
so even if you only called his 33% range with TT or better and AK each of those hands would only be a 2:1 favourite against his range or in other words you can only call with top 3.5% of hands to be a 2:1 favourite or better against his range. Thats why its a lottery , we don't get to crush his range except with the very top of our range and even then he still has decent equity against us.
What the fuck are you going on about.
You mean variance is high? Is that how you define a lottery? You clearly don't understand poker very well yourself if you think 66% chance of winning is better than when hands go post flop.
You made a mistake with your TT analysis, you punched in 99, giving villain more equity. It makes no sense that AT and TT have the same equity vs elb's range, as tens is clearly the stronger hand. We're surely better against a spazzing range with TT than 3:2.
2:1 is the line I'm looking for. I don't mind villain winning half as often as I do, that's what I consider dominant. 3:2 is fine by me also if I'm up against a tough reg, but if villain is making enough mistakes I don't mind waiting for a better spot.
I might be totally wrong to consider folding A3s vs his spazz.
Why is 3:2 worth folding? At most we need like 50% equity to call. 60% equity is LOADS.
Also those ranges are way off what someone would actually be shoving if they were trying to shove the best 1/3 of hands.
Because if villain is making enough mistakes for his stack, then it reduces variance. If it's ong vs keith, I'm snapping 3:2 because I'm happy to get stacks in against a strong opponent with any advantage. But against elb, who's shoving 1 in 3 hands or whatever, I feel like I'm gonna have enough chances to get my money in even better than 3:2. Snapping 3:2 when we're gonna get 2:1 later down the line feels like premature ejaculation.Quote:
Why is 3:2 worth folding? At most we need like 50% equity to call. 60% equity is LOADS.
Yeah pass up on some thin edges by all means. There's a reason I capitalised "loads" though.
Also bounty on Keith tonight? :P
try reading the thread then.Post flop i ran like shit missing everything and facing a shove every hand. If you had a clue, you'd realise that this shows that even a very tight range against a wide range doesn't have the wide range crushed especially in a tournament situation and a lot of the time you're only going to be 2:1 favourite at best against the shovers range and a lot of Ax hands are essentially flipping at best.Quote:
Originally Posted by ImSavy
@ong yeah 99 is 3:2 and TT is the 2:1 vs a 33% range
That's a big weakness I see in preflop raisers constantly. They 3bet(or should I say bet 3 times the big blind preflop), then when they do not do a continuation bet after the flop and do not do a continuation bet after the turn, I say to myself, what a weak player. Make it expensive for the opponent to see the next card, but no, all you see from a preflop raiser is a check, check... A continuation bet is too much to ask for from my opponent, because no cards matched up to their pre-flop air. So of course, I am going to shove. If you are going to bet 3 big blinds preflop, be dang ready to bet 3 big blinds(continuation bet) after the flop and 3 big blinds(continuation bet) on the turn, if you are playing me.Quote:
Originally Posted by Keith
The moral of the story is... I wanna play HU with elb.
elb eb whatever. I seriously just noticed that I've been misreading his name.
I never worry about peeps getting the name wrong. As long as family is taken care of, play all the poker available.