Mcash2's 2NL 6max Pre-flop Open Raise Range By Position Free-For-All

Ranges are going to meld into a great starting point for my new foundation. Any tid-bits on how to play those OR ranges by position, is also surely welcome in this thread. I hope we get a good discussion bubbling, as I agree this is where to start and it would be hard to learn this topic by posting HH's. Also, do you perceive any open-limp hands or solely OR's? What's our calling range by position? I think that would also fit well in this PF discussion. I thank you all in advance for you help on this and overall since I started recently. I feel kind of numb from all the new concepts finding interwoven synapsis points, yet it is a good numb!

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Originally Posted by Mcash2

Ranges are going to meld into a great starting point for my new foundation. Any tid-bits on how to play those OR ranges by position, is also surely welcome in this thread. I hope we get a good discussion bubbling, as I agree this is where to start and it would be hard to learn this topic by posting HH's. Also, do you perceive any open-limp hands or solely OR's? What's our calling range by position? I think that would also fit well in this PF discussion. I thank you all in advance for you help on this and overall since I started recently. I feel kind of numb from all the new concepts finding interwoven synapsis points, yet it is a good numb!

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Ranges need to be dynamic in today's online games and your bet sizings need to be elastic. OR charts are becoming less relevant as a result. You need to construct your own charts for your own games and be willing to adjust them on the fly during a cash game.

Also do remember that (esp. in shorthanded games) position is more important than cards. You still seem to be focusing on what cards to play and that's an outdated style of thinking. You play what ranges you represent, not your actual hole cards. You can begin exploiting your opponents and putting a ton of pressure on them this way.

It's a difficult one, this is. Ranges in particular positions should change based on table dynamics. For example, if the table is loose and fishy, we should be tighter than if the table is tight and solid. Ideally we want solid players to our left and fish to our right, this is a good recipe for a looser range. If the fish are to our left, well we're going to need to be tighter because they're going to call more, and we're going to get squeezed more by the solid players yet to act.

There are so many dynamics to take into account. The ability to identify these dynamics and adapt effectively is an important skill in poker, and tends to come with experience.

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Also do remember that (esp. in shorthanded games) position is more important than cards.

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I think this is a myth at microstakes.

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Also do remember that (esp. in shorthanded games) position is more important than cards. You still seem to be focusing on what cards to play and that's an outdated style of thinking. You play what ranges you represent, not your actual hole cards. You can begin exploiting your opponents and putting a ton of pressure on them this way.

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This is absolutely true when we're playing against people who understand ranges. But it's no use us playing our range rather than our cards if villain doesn't know what a range is.

We make money at microstakes by exploiting fish... the best way to do this is the value bet often and bluff rarely. When we start playing our range against someone who hasn't a clue what it is, then we're just betting ourselves into a corner vs someone who isn't folding what we need him to fold, what better players will fold.

So I think it's dangerous to be playing your range rather than your cards at the micros. It's good to think about how our range looks to villains, and it's ok to play our range if it's obvious to villain that our range is stronger than his (even though we're actually weak). There are times when we can bluff at micros. But for the most part, it's all about value, and that is 100% based on the strength of our holding.

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Originally Posted by OngBonga

This is absolutely true when we're playing against people who understand ranges. But it's no use us playing our range rather than our cards if villain doesn't know what a range is.

We make money at microstakes by exploiting fish... the best way to do this is the value bet often and bluff rarely. When we start playing our range against someone who hasn't a clue what it is, then we're just betting ourselves into a corner vs someone who isn't folding what we need him to fold, what better players will fold.

So I think it's dangerous to be playing your range rather than your cards at the micros. It's good to think about how our range looks to villains, and it's ok to play our range if it's obvious to villain that our range is stronger than his (even though we're actually weak). There are times when we can bluff at micros. But for the most part, it's all about value, and that is 100% based on the strength of our holding.

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Oh, don't get me wrong: Every word of what you wrote here is dead truth. I know not to play ranges when dealing with someone who doesn't think in ranges. It's just value time against them with superior holdings. I'm talking about the regs who clearly are thinking in ranges, are positionally aware, and have more bluffs postflop.

It's actually good that you corrected me there because someone could definitely get the wrong idea from my post. Range v Range is not a blanket policy. It applies against regulars who are thinking on level 2+.

The kind of players you're talking of do exist at micros, but these are not our primary targets. We'll make plenty enough vs the fish to be able to be cautious against the better players. That's not to say we should dodge these guys altogether, but let's not undo all the patient hard work we did winning money off fish by getting cocky against people we think might be good enough to know what our range is.

Like I say, it's good to think about this, because you'll need this skill to make money at the mid stakes, and many successful micros players will be out of their depth quickly when they step up because they're not thinking about how their range looks. But putting this strategy into action at micros requires a strong read on villain and careful planning of the hand to rep the range we want to rep. If you're not confident that you're at the skill level required, and most micros players aren't, then it's generally best to avoid making these plays and stick to value.

If you're confident that you have what it takes, then go right ahead. It's good poker. Just be careful about overestimating your skill relative to those we're targetting.

Maybe this will work better if I go position by position. This was my standard 2NL 6max UTG raising range, which was pretty strict towards premium hands. Help me open up, yet remain tight. 6man UTG: {TT+, AQ+, KQ, 98s+} Also the occasional bluffing range of {99-22, 87s-54s} Very nitty, yet I don't want leave money on the table because I'm not open raising with a more optimum range. What do you think about adding hands and why? And thanks for the help. Sorry if have been flooding the section since I joined, but I want to advance. Also I did a lot of limping in my stats that you have seen, evident by my VPIP/PFR gap. Anyone have a 6max limping range UTG or merely raise or fold?

What on earth is an UTG bluffing range?

Just open 66+, AJs+ AQo+, KJs+. I have no idea what the fascination is with suited connectors they're trash.

Learn to play solid hands and make money from them then you can start pissing about opening your range. All you're doing is making post flop harder for yourself which when you don't have a clue in the first place is a terrible idea. If someone tells me that this is too nitty for the solid 2nl 2017 games that you're playing then stop playing them and find a different table/site.

That range is a little tight for me 6max. That's a (slightly loose) FR UTG range, and even then I can loosen up from that at the right table.

6max UTG I want to be playing 22+ JTs+ KQo+ Axs AJo+

But yeah suited connectors are trash out of position. They're decent in position because they flop enough draws to be able to profitably bet them, and it keeps our range wide which is good for protecting our hand, but they're marginal and are very easy to lose money with when we start playing them out of habit in any position.

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Originally Posted by Savy

What on earth is an UTG bluffing range?

Just open 66+, AJs+ AQo+, KJs+. I have no idea what the fascination is with suited connectors they're trash.

Learn to play solid hands and make money from them then you can start pissing about opening your range. All you're doing is making post flop harder for yourself which when you don't have a clue in the first place is a terrible idea. If someone tells me that this is too nitty for the solid 2nl 2017 games that you're playing then stop playing them and find a different table/site.

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You are just soft and cuddly this morn. Thank you for range.

savy is always soft and cuddly.

66+, AJs+ AQo+, KJs+

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Originally Posted by OngBonga

That range is a little tight for me 6max. That's a (slightly loose) FR UTG range, and even then I can loosen up from that at the right table.

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I'd say recklessly loose for a beginner playing FR UTG.

There's plenty that's speculative from UTG w/ 8 opponents left to act. /
There's perfectly much for a beginner to learn and appreciate from { 88+, AQs+, KQs, AKo }.

It also frees up time for playing the real game of poker: watching and observing the villains to spot trends you can exploit.

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Originally Posted by OngBonga

6max UTG I want to be playing 22+ JTs+ KQo+ Axs AJo+

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I know that this is what you'd play, but that's not the best advice for a beginner.

Beginners should not be told to seek out every value hand and play it well right away. This is a long-term goal for intermediate and advanced players.
Beginners should be told to pick the highest value hands and play them exclusively, until they can play them with understanding. Even these hands face all the subtleties and nuance of late-street decisions, which is arguably more important to learn than pre-flop hand selection. After all, pre-flop hand selection is a sub-function of each player's post-flop playability, which will grow over time.

Beginners need to trim down the pre-flop choices because the decision tree branches significantly post-flop. There's PLENTY of things to be overwhelmed and confused by post-flop, so let's teach those with a tighter range that makes our students' decisions slightly easier while learning.

Besides, knowing the strength of your core value hands is a massive boost to your confidence. Knowing that you can find a fold in the right places and a call in the right places is huge.
Building confidence is the actual function of teaching. The student is already inspired, or they're doomed. It's the teacher's goal to keep that inspiration aflame and help the student see the positive fruits of their efforts whenever possible.

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Originally Posted by OngBonga

But yeah suited connectors are trash out of position. They're decent in position because they flop enough draws to be able to profitably bet them, and it keeps our range wide which is good for protecting our hand, but they're marginal and are very easy to lose money with when we start playing them out of habit in any position.

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They're decent in position because you usually know exactly where you are with them. It's laughably easy to fold a hand with 8-high, for instance. Or ridiculously fun to check IP and get a free card on your back door draws. Oh... it's also fun to "steal" the blinds with them for exactly this reason.
:)

I agree it's to tight in general but it is specific to a beginner. For which it is fine.

At NL25 and below, my UTG open range at 6max would look something like 22+, A9s+, A5s-A2s, KTs+, QTs+, JTs, T9s-76s, AJo+, KQo. I think that's around 15-16%. If table conditions require you to tighten up, then fold hands like A2s, 22, 33, 76s, etc. If the table is really fishy and passive, you can add hands like ATo, KJo, K9s, J9s, all suited Aces and sometimes get away with limping (think FR live games).

I guess for a beginner though, you'd want to start off with a tight UTG range. So something like 55+, ATs+, KJs+, QJs, JTs, T9s, AQo+ is totally fine until you're comfortable making adjustments.

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66+, AJs+ AQo+, KJs+

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recklessly loose

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cmon, how nitty do we want beginners to be? Trim off 66/77/KJs and we have as nitty an opening range as I care to imagine. If we're nittier than that, well we're surely passing up on +ev spots with hands that we should be playing. KQs is a solid hand in all positions. So is AJs. 88 is marginal, perhaps we can start at 99 FR.

Telling noobs to open fold KQs UTG FR as a default is questionable imo, and if you think that range of savy's is "recklessly loose" then I can only imagine you're saying KQs should be folded.

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I know that this is what you'd play, but that's not the best advice for a beginner.

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This refers to my default 6max UTG opening range. Let's not forget the blinds are coming up faster. Let's also not forget that 6max games tend to be more aggressive. We can't be too tight if we're playing 6max.

I would say if a beginner is not comfortable playing this range UTG 6max, then stick to FR where you can profitably be a nit.

He wasn't talking about my range. Also we are forgetting that adding hands is no problem whatsoever after we get a bit of an idea of what we are doing. I'd much rather have someone playing 13/8 when they are starting out and build from there than be 25/19 and have to remove hands even though I think 25/19 is much better than 13/8.

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Originally Posted by StarGrinder

At NL25 and below, my UTG open range at 6max would look something like 22+, A9s+, A5s-A2s, KTs+, QTs+, JTs, T9s-76s, AJo+, KQo. I think that's around 15-16%. If table conditions require you to tighten up, then fold hands like A2s, 22, 33, 76s, etc. If the table is really fishy and passive, you can add hands like ATo, KJo, K9s, J9s, all suited Aces and sometimes get away with limping (think FR live games).

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{ A2s - A5s } are stronger than { A6s - A9s }, due to straight potential.

If you're trimming AXs from your range, trim A6s first, and work your way up to A9s, where you then turn back to A2s and work your way up.

Note that A2s - A5s is a decent place to think about pre-flop semi-bluff 3-bets and such, if you have a situation which makes this line profitable at all.

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Originally Posted by OngBonga

cmon, how nitty do we want beginners to be?

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I want them to see that 90+% of their winnings comes from this core of nitty hands.
I want them to see that, while there is some value in chasing all the "fancy" plays that they hear about, that value pales in comparison to simply playing strong hands aggressively.
Once they understand what the real heart of ABC poker is, they will see that those fancy plays are highly motivated by situational information.

I want them to see that it's actually quite easy to play the hands that win you almost all of your monies. That those difficult spots that they are so concerned about are important, but that they can wait until turning a 5 - 10 bb/100 profit is easy at the micros, which doesn't take much aside from nitting up.

Know your core ABC poker lines. Know them deep in your bones.

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Originally Posted by OngBonga

Trim off 66/77/KJs and we have as nitty an opening range as I care to imagine.

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Exactly. Playing that range is easy as pie, right?
It still offers plenty of head-scratching moments post-flop, though, right?

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Originally Posted by OngBonga

Trim off 66/77/KJs and we have as nitty an opening range as I care to imagine. If we're nittier than that, well we're surely passing up on +ev spots with hands that we should be playing. KQs is a solid hand in all positions. So is AJs. 88 is marginal, perhaps we can start at 99 FR.

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Are you suggesting that we offer up advanced Olympian training to toddlers?

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Originally Posted by OngBonga

Telling noobs to open fold KQs UTG FR as a default is questionable imo, and if you think that range of savy's is "recklessly loose" then I can only imagine you're saying KQs should be folded.

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You seem emotionally invested in this. Do you want to have a cry about it?
:cry:
Great, now you made me cry.
:cry: :cry:

:p

Re-read my suggested range. KQs is in my suggested range for UTG FR.

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Originally Posted by OngBonga

This refers to my default 6max UTG opening range. Let's not forget the blinds are coming up faster. Let's also not forget that 6max games tend to be more aggressive. We can't be too tight if we're playing 6max.

I would say if a beginner is not comfortable playing this range UTG 6max, then stick to FR where you can profitably be a nit.

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My range was specifically for UTG FR. I spent much less time studying 6-max. I'd think something like ~8% VPIP is probably my starting point. I'd want to look at a range finder before I commit to that.

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Originally Posted by MadMojoMonkey

{ A2s - A5s } are stronger than { A6s - A9s }, due to straight potential.

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True, but A9s is a better one pair hand than A2s-A5s when villains calling with worse Ax and you can often get two streets of value (sometimes 3 when bluff catching) with the added benefit of making the nut flush. A2s-A5s does make a straight but are you really stacking off every time with the ass end on some 534xx board?

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Originally Posted by MadMojoMonkey

Note that A2s - A5s is a decent place to think about pre-flop semi-bluff 3-bets and such, if you have a situation which makes this line profitable at all.

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As well as 4b bluffs from EP/MP vs 3bet happy villains who have position on us. Although I doubt this is a strategy I'd recommend for low micro stakes as balancing your 4b range is prob entirely unnecessary.

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You seem emotionally invested in this. Do you want to have a cry about it?

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cmon mojo you know me well enough to know I can get emotionally invested in a debate about dust.

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Re-read my suggested range. KQs is in my suggested range for UTG FR.

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Well then savy's range is not "recklessly loose", it's only KJs and 66-88 looser than the nitty range I suggested, and they'd be slight losers at worst. 6max they're certainly hands we should play UTG, FR they're marginal and certainly not in "reckless" territory. We should consider whether they're in our UTG opening range based on table dynamics, not based on some static range that we're blindly playing.

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Originally Posted by StarGrinder

True, but A9s is a better one pair hand than A2s-A5s when villains calling with worse Ax and you can often get two streets of value (sometimes 3 when bluff catching) with the added benefit of making the nut flush. A2s-A5s does make a straight but are you really stacking off every time with the ass end on some 534xx board?

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I'm not playing AXs to make a pair. I play AK, AQ, KQ, AJ, etc to make pairs. If I happen to get weak pair with an A kicker, that is a complicated situation which I have make decisions about, but I was playing the hand to make a nut flush, so anything else is not my goal and complicates my line.

Am I stacking off with XXX every time?
In all cases, the answer is no. My holdings do not exclusively determine my bets. Pot odds, Villain's habits and our history play a significant role.

That said, if I choose to 3-bet an EP open from a reg when I have A2s from BB, then yeah... I fully expect my wheel straight to not be dominated by them showing up with 76 at showdown.
Villain's ranges matter.

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Originally Posted by StarGrinder

As well as 4b bluffs from EP/MP vs 3bet happy villains who have position on us. Although I doubt this is a strategy I'd recommend for low micro stakes as balancing your 4b range is prob entirely unnecessary.

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It's not a good strategy for beginners, I agree. That's why I said, "if it's profitable at all."

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Originally Posted by OngBonga

cmon mojo you know me well enough to know I can get emotionally invested in a debate about dust.

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You're the best, ong.

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Originally Posted by OngBonga

Well then savy's range is not "recklessly loose", it's only KJs and 66-88 looser than the nitty range I suggested, and they'd be slight losers at worst. 6max they're certainly hands we should play UTG, FR they're marginal and certainly not in "reckless" territory. We should consider whether they're in our UTG opening range based on table dynamics, not based on some static range that we're blindly playing.

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Fine, fine... I was being a bit silly with the word "recklessly," but I only said it in the context of teaching a beginner where the real value in poker lies.

My point is that it is not good for beginners to be playing marginal hands. It's really hard to get them to hear it and why it matters, though.
They want to be top world-class players at the microstakes, and they don't realize that the top world-class players would nit the F up if they were playing against Villains with microstakes tendencies. There's just no reason to play speculative hands, when you can openly play monsters and bet them for value and you'll still get calls from your opponents. The need to play a complicated, wide range is mostly to inject plenty of subterfuge into your game. Well, when the Villain's aren't paying any attention to you (maybe they're all too busy staring at their HUD), then who needs subterfuge?

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My point is that it is not good for beginners to be playing marginal hands. It's really hard to get them to hear it and why it matters, though.

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I understand where you're coming from, I mean it's better to be too tight and then slowly loosen up to optimal, than it is too be too loose and tighten up to optimal.

But if KJs and 66 are the worst in an UTG range, I don't see any reason for concern. In fact, I'd consider that tight for a beginner, and be impressed they're folding 22-55. I wasn't when I was a beginner.

Could you post your 6max ranges again teacher?

6max 2NL: Anyone have an open limping range? Calling Range?

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Originally Posted by Savy

What on earth is an UTG bluffing range?

Just open 66+, AJs+ AQo+, KJs+. I have no idea what the fascination is with suited connectors they're trash.

Learn to play solid hands and make money from them then you can start pissing about opening your range. All you're doing is making post flop harder for yourself which when you don't have a clue in the first place is a terrible idea. If someone tells me that this is too nitty for the solid 2nl 2017 games that you're playing then stop playing them and find a different table/site.

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I was reading some GTO stuff. Don't laugh. And basically the thought was that you needed to add in some bluffs, that would occasionally showdown for all to see, so they wouldn't merely fold when you bet from that positon. It made a lot of sense, so I incorporated it into my game. But if you guys think I should start tighter I'm willing. Baby steps. I'm all for wiping the slate clean, restart from scratch, and slowly re-learn situational poker as I ask questions and post HH's to advance from an ever-expanding solid base. I have the time and can put in many hands daily to become a knowledgeable poker player.

My suggestions for a beginner's open raise ranges PRE @ 6-max.
Note: this is a "no information yet" set of ranges. This is intended to be a player's default ranges when they first sit at a table and have no information about their opponents. All of these ranges are suggestions, not mandates.

UTG: { 88+, ATs+, KJs+, QJs, AQo+ }
MP: { 77+, ATs+, KTs+, QTs, JTs, AJo+, KQo }
CO & SB: { 22+, A2s+, K9s+, Q9s+, J9s+, T8s+, 97s+, 87s, 76s, 65s, 54s, ATo+, KTo+, QTo+, J9o+, T8o+, 98o }
BTN: { 22+, A2s+, K2s+, Q8s+, J7s+, T7s+, 96s+, 85s+, 74s+, 64s+, 53s+, A2o+, KTo+, QTo+, J9o+, T8o+, 98o, 87o }

These are suggested ranges to open when there has been no pre-flop raises prior to your action.
I.e. this is a range to open when only folds and limps have preceded your action.

There is no range for BB, due to the fact that if no one has reaised the BB, then you can check with ATC for a free flop. There are definitely ranges to raise from BB, but we'll talk about those later.

GTO is mostly worth studying when your opponents are using it, too. Be aware that GTO say literally nothing about one player at a time. GTO is always about multiple players competing for value. Any advice that claims to be GTO and tells you how to act, without qualifying what Villain's expected actions are is incomplete and therefore bad advice.


The advice to show your opponents bluffs is only good advice if your opponents notice what you've shown them. This is happening far less than you imagine at the micros.

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Originally Posted by Mcash2

6max 2NL: Anyone have an open limping range? Calling Range?

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Calling range depends a great deal on villain's opening range, and of course your position. Other factors such as the tendancies of villains yet to act are also important, as are post flop dynamics.

As for open limps, I've stated my reasons for sometimes open limping in other threads. Generally, don't do it, especially as a beginner. Only do it if you can understand why it might be better in that particular spot than raising or folding. Limping out of habit is bad, especially open limping. I would suggest an open fold or raise strategy pre flop as a default, and only consider limping if limp pots are still getting huge. It's rare the pots get big enough to provide better value than raised pots though, why is why we should generally raise when we're the first to enter a pot.

Thanks guys. This is getting exciting to me. I'm actually taking notes. I have learned that the process of jotting down the ideas/lessons on a pad, then transferring it over to my notebook, helps the concepts sink in better. Can't wait for others to chime in, so I make a final decision on my PF open raise ranges. As of a early default, I'm going with Mojo's. I will analyze the differences between Mojo's and mine, and post my guesses at the reasons, and you guys can tell me if I was close.

Dude, your ranges are never final. You have a standard range and standard lines for common situations. Only deviate from your defaults when you have enough information to do so. Sometimes only a small sample is required, depending on the spot. Other situations dictate a much larger sample. You may or may not have picked up on this throughout the thread, so maybe I'm spewing rhetorical nonsense, but figured I'd point it out anyway. ;)

I don't think I've yet mentioned that StarGrinder is new to me, though I see he has over 800 posts. That's not my point.

My point is that I like his advice.

StarGrinder, you're all good in my book.

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Originally Posted by StarGrinder

Dude, your ranges are never final. You have a standard range and standard lines for common situations. Only deviate from your defaults when you have enough information to do so. Sometimes only a small sample is required, depending on the spot. Other situations dictate a much larger sample. You may or may not have picked up on this throughout the thread, so maybe I'm spewing rhetorical nonsense, but figured I'd point it out anyway. ;)

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No nonsense for sure. Good stuff SG1.

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Originally Posted by MadMojoMonkey

I don't think I've yet mentioned that StarGrinder is new to me, though I see he has over 800 posts. That's not my point.

My point is that I like his advice.

StarGrinder, you're all good in my book.

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:oops: aww thanks man

I've been around for a while (reg'd 2010) but haven't posted in ages. Spent the past few years playing professionally/semi-professionally both live and online. I am by no means a great player but figured I'd pop back in to FTR and give back where I can because I've at least had some decent success playing NLH cash games. On the other hand, I can only imagine how comically bad some of my older posts are before I stopped posting. Some people just have to figure things out for themselves... I guess I was one of them. ;)

The biggest differences I see from old range UTG, is you have removed my mid suited connectors JTs, T9s, 98s, and added in AJs, ATs, and KJs. I already told you why I added them and have no issue dropping them. You added AJs, ATs, and KJs for their top pair value. I took them out years ago, because I was unable to slow down when dominated. But I have learned some restraint with lower kickers and gladly will put them back where they belong for now.

I was also an on again off again mid and low pair player in early position. I had a romance with the double-ups, yet wanted terribly to divorce the flop folding after getting to the flop. I won some CB's when the aggressor, but overall they just couldn't stand the scrutiny of and heat. 8's or better sounds good though.

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Originally Posted by Mcash2

The biggest differences I see from old range UTG, is you have removed my mid suited connectors JTs, T9s, 98s, and added in AJs, ATs, and KJs. I already told you why I added them and have no issue dropping them. You added AJs, ATs, and KJs for their top pair value. I took them out years ago, because I was unable to slow down when dominated. But I have learned some restraint with lower kickers and gladly will put them back where they belong for now.

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Those SC's are real trouble when you're OOP. You can't ever feel good with a pair, since opponents' ranges will always include hands that dominate your pairs. You're really looking to stack off with a straight or flush, but playing drawing hands OOP is no good.

If you're already comfortable with your old range, then it should only take a session or two for you to feel the difference in your old range and my suggestion. I look forward to hearing you critique the strengths and weaknesses of the switch!
:)