Operation: Learning to Think - Eliminate The TAG-FISH in Me

Introduction to Phase II:
-Phase I of my Operation has been complete.
-Here is a link to my first thread, which covers my climb from $2nl to $25nl: http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...nl-t81951.html For those of you who have doubts about turning $50 into a couple thousand, please read. I admit I've struggled at times, but in the end I learned enough to get by. It can be done, just work really hard.
-This thread will be focused on my experineces through $50nl and $100nl specifically, though I will be playing at $25nl depending on a number of factors during this time as well.
-The focus of this thread may shift who knows...I have no idea where I'll end up, but I think I have what it takes to get through and move up some more.

***RULES REGARDING Bankroll Management AND STAKE CHECKLIST***
1. $2NL........................ $ 50 ----------------- 25 BI's ..........COMPLETE
2. $5NL........................ $ 150 --------------- 30 BI's ..........COMPLETE
3. $10NL...................... $ 300 --------------- 30 BI's...........COMPLETE
4. $25NL...................... $ 875 --------------- 35 BI's...........COMPLETE
5. $50NL...................... $ 1,750 ------------- 35 BI's...........COMPLETE
6. $100NL.................... $ 4,000 ------------- 40 BI's
7. $200NL.................... $ 10,000 ----------- 50 BI's

I thought I'd repost this here for a couple reasons. For one, I think anyone who's relatively new to poker reading this Operation will benefit from seeing this chart. I have followed it religiously, and I want to set an example that proper bankroll management isn't that hard, but should be taken seriously. If you struggle with it, you need to re-assess your goals and ask yourself what you want out of this game. These are minimum guidelines for me. I 'took shots' a couple times and then decided against it, waiting till I had at least the minimum amount for each stake before trying. If you struggle with discipline (I know I do at times) setting up a chart like this to follow will really help keep you in line. Feel free to copy it for your own.

Summer Season Goals (July/August):
[ ]40k+ hands of cash per month
[ ]Attain Platinum Star
[ ]Study TOP/TAP thoroughly
[ ]Read HOH V2: Endgame to sharpen up MTT play
[ ]Fill my personal quota for playing DON SNG's (lol)
[ ]Play where you feel comfortable: Just because I can play $50nl doesn't mean I have to every day.
[ ]Have fun

Special thanks to Spenda, Stax, Spoonitnow. Spenda's video's on Grinderschool really helped me see things in action and get me going when I was playing the lowest microstakes. Spoon has really helped me develop my hand reading skills and sharpen up my method of reviewing HH's - I appreciate the coaching services you provided. Staxs' posts in the forums/discussions in IRC etc have helped in alot of ways too. If it weren't for you 3 I'd either be a 2+2er or be stuck at 5nl.

Alright that's it for now, stick around for exciting updates and whatnot :roll:

GL with part 2 and congrats on phase 1!!

Someone following proper bankroll management and moving up? Get right out of town! ;) Best of luck with your next phase.

congratulations and a pedantic quibble .......how does following the chart religously match up with taking shots?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Keith_MM

congratulations and a pedantic quibble .......how does following the chart religously match up with taking shots?

---

I had set targets where I would try the next stake with a stop loss and would then apply a wider stop loss once I hit the charts target. I'm not sure if I posted them or not (for example $10nl was like $250 and $25nl was like $700 or $750. Anyway, it didn't really go well for me and I decided to stop doing it that way and just wait till my roll hits the required number on the chart before attempting to play. The whole 'shot taking' thing sort of stressed me out I think and caused me to play bad.

GL my friend. Everyone knows you'll do well! I have the utmost faith in your work ethic and game skillz so pwn those noobs!

Well this thread needs some 'excitement' for readers so I'll post my cash game graph which includes all microstakes games and a little bit of 50nl. This graph includes flips/drunken 2nl donking/FTR games/random LHE hands/shortstacking...flame as you will. I took the image about a week ago but forget about putting it up in my blog.

http://img195.imageshack.us/img195/8463/lifecash.png

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Micro2Macro

Well this thread needs some 'excitement' for readers so I'll post my cash game graph which includes all microstakes games and a little bit of 50nl. This graph includes flips/drunken 2nl donking/FTR games/random LHE hands/shortstacking...flame as you will. I took the image about a week ago but forget about putting it up in my blog.

---

Way to brag! Gj on the microstakes crushing sir.

haha yeah I think we can settle on a BBV list for it:

Brag: sexy graph
Beat: only microstakes
Variance: drunk 2nl sessions of madness/flips with fat/donating in FTR reg games/playing LHE

Pretty much the worst couple days poker wise in awhile. I don't understand why I play so bad.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Micro2Macro

Pretty much the worst couple days poker wise in awhile. I don't understand why I play so bad.

---

I'm there too bro. I'm playing horribly. I'm taking tomorrow off to go over some sessions and study a bit.

Yeah, time to do something actually productive and take our games to the next level, imo.

you know whats productive? the ftr werewolf game!

Played some MTT's today. Cashed in about 1 for 6 or something, FT'd a $4.40 180 for 5th place.

God these tournaments are like crack, I always swear to focus on cash then just end up crawling back to the MTT scene :/

Just a silly thing, but in your first sentence which has a link to your old thread, take the . out from after the html, it doesnt work :P

Anyway, good luck and I'm gonna start an operation thread because you've made me! I need to suck less and win more.

oh thanks for pointing that out man, link fixed.

I reallly need to get my priorities straight.

I've spent the last 2 days grinding turbo SNG's and not making any money whatsoever.

I need to find a way to get motivated to play cash again..

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Micro2Macro

I reallly need to get my priorities straight.

I've spent the last 2 days grinding turbo SNG's and not making any money whatsoever.

I need to find a way to get motivated to play cash again..

---

Play cash bc you are good at it (better than you think. Seriously remember most ppl are BE or worse and you really should feel special for being a winning player) and you can make Platinumz and NOVA sir. I mean if the SnG thing speaks to you obv. just get good at them; but like you said get your shit in order.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Illfavor

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Micro2Macro

I reallly need to get my priorities straight.

I've spent the last 2 days grinding turbo SNG's and not making any money whatsoever.

I need to find a way to get motivated to play cash again..

---

Play cash bc you are good at it (better than you think. Seriously remember most ppl are BE or worse and you really should feel special for being a winning player) and you can make Platinumz and NOVA sir. I mean if the SnG thing speaks to you obv. just get good at them; but like you said get your shit in order.

---

I think I lack appreciation for being a winning player (I say this with the intention of not trying to sound like I am full of myself and apologize if anyone takes it the wrong way). I take it for granted. Unfortunately because of who I am, nothing is ever good enough for me. No matter what I'm never satisfied and I get all worked up/anxious etc over nothing. In fact, you could say winning tilts me, if that makes sense, because I know that every time I make a mistake it sets back my win rate which I tend to worry about too much. I need to open my eyes to the big picture you mentioned - most players lose. Most regs suck, etc.

I enjoy digging deep into different variants of NLHE to see what's really out there. I want to master cash games, sit-n-go's, and MTT's. I'm not satisfied with being labeled as a 'cash grinder'. I want to experience it all, and I want to excel at them all. The trouble with this approach is it leaves me with alot on my plate so I'm learning a multitude of things at once. I'm currently reading 3 poker books aside from my web browsing and I've been running quizzes on SNG Whiz so I'm really all over the place. I love this game though so having all this going on is exciting, but I do need to be aware of when I get out of line and lose direction.

I need to simplify things, and get a schedule going or something. There's also something else I think I have discovered that sparks this motivation drainage when it comes to cash - I won't mention it here but you can talk in IRC if you want to know more.

We all have stretches where the grind becomes tiring. I'm with you...I understand that playing some MTT's and SNG's break up the monotony. I also feel you on wanting to be a complete player. But remember, cash games will always be there and will be the bread and butter. Additionally, cash games will give you more experience than MTT's or SNG's will. Whenever you're ready, take it slow with the cash games at first. I find it a struggle to jump right in with 6+ tables. But after my first half-hour with four tables going, adding a fifth, sixth, and seventh table is a no-brainer. Good luck bro and keep grind on the mind!

I think I figured out a solution to help me out a bit.

Withdraw $1,000 when BR=$5,000.
*Further withdrawals pending*

I gotta pay myself eventually. I think $5,000 is a good mark to do it. I really want a TV for my room. I'm gonna get a 37 inch Samsung and mount it on my wall, along with a PS3.

I know alot of people talk about never cashing out until a really high number, but I don't think the difference between a $5,000 bankroll and a $4,000 bankroll is all that significant, and I'll get more experience before moving up to $1/$2, which imo is a better idea, because it seems like that is the level where s--- starts getting serious.

So now I have something to look forward to, and also something to motivate me to get the cash games flowin'!

WTF I constantly get set mined in 3bet pots

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.25 BB (9 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

UTG+1 ($14.75)
MP1 ($28.45)
MP2 ($5)
MP3 ($26.60)
CO ($25)
Hero (Button) ($26.05)
SB ($15.65)
BB ($5)
UTG ($24.75)

Preflop: Hero is Button with Ahttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...miles/club.gif, Ahttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/spade.gif
1 fold, UTG+1 calls $0.25, MP1 bets $1, 2 folds, CO calls $1, Hero raises to $4.75, 3 folds, MP1 calls $3.75, CO calls $3.75

Flop: ($14.85) 2http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...miles/club.gif, 7http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...miles/club.gif, 3http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/spade.gif (3 players)
MP1 checks, CO checks, Hero bets $8, MP1 calls $8, CO raises to $20.25 (All-In), Hero raises to $21.30 (All-In), MP1 calls $13.30

Turn: ($77.70) 2http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/spade.gif (3 players, 2 all-in)

River: ($77.70) 8http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/heart.gif (3 players, 2 all-in)

Total pot: $77.70 | Rake: $3

Results:
Hero had Ahttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...miles/club.gif, Ahttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/spade.gif (two pair, Aces and twos).
MP1 had 10http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...es/diamond.gif, 10http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/heart.gif (two pair, tens and twos).
CO had 3http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...miles/club.gif, 3http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/heart.gif (full house, threes over twos).
Outcome: Hero won $2.10, CO won $72.60

There's no way he has implied odds here to set mine me right...like come on, even if I only had KK+ he wouldn't since I'm not stacking off 100 procent on Ax flops.

Good luck etc.

I thought you were grinding DONs though? Or was that Phase I?

I grind cash/MTT's/SNG's/DON's.

Worst game is probably SNG's, lol.

My operation revolves around cash though, the rest I just play on the side. So for Phase 2 I play 50nl-100nl, though right now I'm only playing 50nl and I usually start off the day with 25nl, at least until I get into gear at 50nl. I don't update much on my SNG status however I might start posting a bit on them so I can get better.

I generally play the other formats of games at a lower level, so even though I'm rolled for 50nl I'm playing $5-$10 MTT's/SNG's etc.

BTW what is a reasonable ROI in DON's? Like 10%?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Micro2Macro

BTW what is a reasonable ROI in DON's? Like 10%?

---

According to Naka, 2+2 has it that 10% is pretty decent when multi-tabling. I'm currently playing 4 at a time and running at 17.99% over 250. That's at $10 normal length. 13.87% lifetime (407 DONS).

That's no brag. I've been running sick hot lately and will doubtless be kicked in the ass shortly. Part of me wants to carry on at this level / number of tables to see what's possible over a 1K sample but the other part of me wants to go to 8 tables or more or move up to the $20s.

Cool, to obtain a good ROI though you have to be good too, though running well helps :D. In terms of 'difficulty' how do the $10's fare compared to the $5's?

Wow sick, just had the biggest heater session ever for DON sng's lol.

Results of the set: I cashed in 9/10..so that makes up for getting stacked so much in cash :D

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Micro2Macro

Cool, to obtain a good ROI though you have to be good too, though running well helps :D. In terms of 'difficulty' how do the $10's fare compared to the $5's?

---

Can't really say as I've never played the $5s. $10s are pretty soft tho. I get the impression from Nakamura that the $20s are a different matter.

yeah seems like the $20's would be about the point where they start attracting more regs.

DON SNG UPDATE CUZ IM KOOL

So I completed my set of 150 $5.20 Turbo Double or Nothing SNG's. I ran great for a total profit of ~ $145 which is about 18% ROI I think?

Ok brag done. I have a set of 300 $10.40's to complete before I can hit the $20 level (probably going to have to do some study or w/e if I want to make it actually).

Now let's hope the $10.40's go well because I don't plan on moving back down to the $5.20's given the size of my bankroll, then after that run good in $20's and make the monies!

M2M stopped by for the first time in a long time. I really wanted to say thanks for helping me out the other day. Game has turned around 180 degrees since then. Lets do it again soon if we could. I'd like to sweat you as well.
Fuck I noticed when I looked at your graph we've played almost the same amount of hands. Only difference is Oh about $1200 is missing from my graph.
Keep it up my friend!

No problem Harley. Sometime when I catch you in the IRC we should set up another session, glad it worked out well for you.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Micro2Macro

DON SNG UPDATE CUZ IM KOOL

So I completed my set of 150 $5.20 Turbo Double or Nothing SNG's. I ran great for a total profit of ~ $145 which is about 18% ROI I think?

Ok brag done. I have a set of 300 $10.40's to complete before I can hit the $20 level (probably going to have to do some study or w/e if I want to make it actually).

Now let's hope the $10.40's go well because I don't plan on moving back down to the $5.20's given the size of my bankroll, then after that run good in $20's and make the monies!

---

18% is very impressive at the turbo's but I'm not sure it's sustainable. I guess this doesn't matter if you're moving up. GL with the $10s.

Good stuff M2M, just got done reading Phase II.

I think that 18% could be obtainable at the $5 level, while maybe something more like 12.5%-15% would be obtainable at $10.

I went on a heater right before I started my operation too, winning 9/10. But ever since the start of my OP, I've been struggling to break even.

Good luck with everything man. You're a winning player...remember that.

Thanks CBAT.

I'll try and remember that winning player thing, since I played 20 turbo SNG's (regular payout not DONs) yesterday and lost 17/20 :shock:

Probably the sickest swing I've ever had in them. I didn't once have a hand where I was a 70%+ favourite hold up when I was all in lol, but it's all good. I checked some of my games through SNG WHIZ and noticed that I made a few bad pushes and missed what should have been a call, so even though I was raped by variance I could have done better. I must have majorly screwed up 3-4 of those games so I gotta work on that.

Cash grind tomorrow, hopefully I'll get in some good volume.

I have new love for cash games. Figuring out ways to exploit regulars is so exciting for some reason, that I have suddenly found paying attention to things others do is really interesting. The deeper stacks of cash game play make this observation more interesting then deciding whether to push fold in a SNG, imo.

Emotional control is so important. It will be the biggest factor in determing our fate as poker players. Live well.

Bleh, I never seem to post hands very often, so I'll just post this little charm vs some spazzy drooler:

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.25 BB (9 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

MP3 ($35.75)
CO ($41.65)
Button ($28.35)
SB ($25.55)
Hero (BB) ($25)
UTG ($25)
UTG+1 ($25)
MP1 ($30.45)
MP2 ($28.95)


Preflop: Hero is BB with 9http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/spade.gif, 7http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/spade.gif
3 folds, MP2 calls $0.25, 4 folds, Hero checks

Flop: ($0.60) 5http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/heart.gif, 7http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/heart.gif, 6http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...es/diamond.gif (2 players)
Hero bets $0.50, MP2 calls $0.50

Turn: ($1.60) Qhttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/spade.gif (2 players)
Hero bets $1.50, MP2 calls $1.50

River: ($4.60) 8http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...miles/club.gif (2 players)
Hero checks, MP2 bets $19.75, Hero raises to $22.75 (All-In), MP2 calls $3

Total pot: $50.10 | Rake: $2.45

Results:
Hero had 9http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/spade.gif, 7http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/spade.gif (straight, nine high).
MP2 mucked 2http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...es/diamond.gif, 4http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...es/diamond.gif (straight, eight high).
Outcome: Hero won $47.65

In hindsight I think checking the river may be kinda bad...I think the turn bet is fine, though somewhat thin, but he'll call down any pair+draw - and he's got them all in his range so I felt it was an easy value bet. The Q didn't really change much, although he could have Qx in his range, I'd probably hear about him making 2 pair on the turn and if he had me outkicked or caught just a Q I still haz a couple outs.

I felt going for a river c/r would have been the most profitable..I figured he'd just fire with most of his range since he'll peel so light on earlier streets.

Why I am such a station when I move up I do not know...

I guess I tend to freeze up sometimes and make too many curiosity calls.

I'll get with the program eventually...just need to grind it off.

Don't feel bad, I'm a station all the time, not just when I move up. The opposite is worse, when I go to play live at a casino and I try to double and triple barrel college kids who think they're Phil Ivey.

I'm a station too. I always say the whole "Would he really have taken that line with [insert hand that beats me here]?"

It's strange because at 25nl I've been playing really solid (for the most part).

I'm sure it's just a mental barrier of moving up and stuff and I just need to get used to the slightly increased aggression of the next level. There seems to be a higher percentage of regulars - some thinking/some just really spazzy - so I'll eventually get comfortable once I'm used to the differences.

Thanks for the support guys.

Update:

Bankroll broke $3000 for the first time today.

I've played ~ 15k hands of cash this month so I am behind pace for getting in 40k, however my volume has been weighted mostly over the past few days, and I expect to get the next 25k in without worry.

I'll be playing more 50nl over the next couple weeks, will update thoughts/progress/possibly some HH's as I go on.

I'm about 32% complete in regards to acheiving Platinum Star. I feel I shouldn't have too much trouble making it according to my plan.

All that and I still have time to study. That's all for now,

-m2m

go m2m clap clap

it wont take long at all to reach plat star now that you are grinding at 50nl, especially with any decent hand volume. I might be joining you at some 50nl FR tables here very, very soon. we need to get some sweats in so I can figure some things out.

Your roll is high enough to think about playing $100NL, yet I get the feeling you haven't been playing that much $50NL. Or am I confused? :) Well, as long as you have a good bankroll and are having fun playing poker, that's the main thing. :cool:

Well I haven't played much $50nl (only 4k hands). About $1000 of my earnings is from MTT's/SNG's/FTR stuff, so if you look at only my cash game profit it basically follows my bankroll management rules ignoring any profit from other sources.

That and I love playing with a deep roll since it just gives that extra cushion to not worry about losing a few stacks. Makes it easier to just keep playing instead of worrying whether or not I will have to move down etc.

Update:

Just finished 2nd in a $4.40 180 for ~ $144.

Kinda pissed I didn't take it down as my opponent was incredibly soft but oh well, I am quite lucky to have gotten that far and I played well throughout, plus I learned a few things while talking with Illfavor on IRC about some hands so that's definately a huge plus.

No more donkaments for the rest of the week (aside from the GoldStar+ 100k gaur') on Saturday I believe...

Cash grind will continue.

FML wtf am I on seriously. This is just fucking retarded and there isn't an excuse for it.

I am posting this hand so that I can be flamed, and hopefully this will motivate me to end this retarded spewy shit and learn how to not be such a fucking fuck up.

I'll be at 25nl until further notice.

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.50 BB (8 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

MP2 ($25.90)
CO ($79.70)
Hero (Button) ($50.75)
SB ($85.95)
BB ($61)
UTG ($25)
UTG+1 ($96.40)
MP1 ($54.45)

Preflop: Hero is Button with Qhttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...miles/club.gif, 10http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...miles/club.gif
1 fold, UTG+1 bets $2, 3 folds, Hero calls $2, 2 folds

Flop: ($4.75) 7http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...es/diamond.gif, 9http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/spade.gif, 7http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...miles/club.gif (2 players)
UTG+1 bets $2, Hero calls $2

Turn: ($8.75) 2http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...es/diamond.gif (2 players)
UTG+1 checks, Hero checks

River: ($8.75) 4http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/spade.gif (2 players)
UTG+1 checks, Hero bets $5.50, UTG+1 raises to $20, Hero raises to $46.75 (All-In), UTG+1 calls $26.75

Total pot: $102.25 | Rake: $3

Results:
Hero had Qhttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...miles/club.gif, 10http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...miles/club.gif (one pair, sevens).
UTG+1 had 7http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/heart.gif, 6http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/heart.gif (three of a kind, sevens).
Outcome: UTG+1 won $99.25

I don't even know what brought this on..it just happened.

http://img32.imageshack.us/img32/484...pewingdoes.png

This is what a graph looks like when one plays well, and does not tilt. This is what it looks like when you fold. This is what it looks like when you don't make stupid, idiotic, uncharacteristic tilty plays.

Don't play tired, don't play angry, don't play upset, don't play on tilt - and if you know to fold a graph should look like this.

This is a reminder to me that I am capable of playing well, now it's time to do it. Volume goals for the month are no longer valid, as this just leads to pressure to play which may lead to playing when I shouldn't.

Nuff said, I'm going to learn from this, despite how simply retardedly easy it looks to fold in that previous hand, and move on.

Interestingly, this post has created a new page in my thread. I like the idea of such a coincidence which sorta looks like I'm going to start over with a fresh mind, on a fresh page.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Micro2Macro

Results:
Hero had Qhttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...miles/club.gif, 10http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...miles/club.gif (one pair, sevens).
UTG+1 had 7http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/heart.gif, 6http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/heart.gif (three of a kind, sevens).
Outcome: UTG+1 won $99.25

---

Well, who can really fault you? You had Queen high! ;)

Woah what is that spam?

Spew doesn't exist on this page sir!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Micro2Macro

FML wtf am I on seriously. This is just fucking retarded and there isn't an excuse for it.

I am posting this hand so that I can be flamed, and hopefully this will motivate me to end this retarded spewy shit and learn how to not be such a fucking fuck up.

I'll be at 25nl until further notice.

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.50 BB (8 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

MP2 ($25.90)
CO ($79.70)
Hero (Button) ($50.75)
SB ($85.95)
BB ($61)
UTG ($25)
UTG+1 ($96.40)
MP1 ($54.45)

Preflop: Hero is Button with Qhttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...miles/club.gif, 10http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...miles/club.gif
1 fold, UTG+1 bets $2, 3 folds, Hero calls $2, 2 folds

Flop: ($4.75) 7http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...es/diamond.gif, 9http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/spade.gif, 7http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...miles/club.gif (2 players)
UTG+1 bets $2, Hero calls $2

Turn: ($8.75) 2http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...es/diamond.gif (2 players)
UTG+1 checks, Hero checks

River: ($8.75) 4http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/spade.gif (2 players)
UTG+1 checks, Hero bets $5.50, UTG+1 raises to $20, Hero raises to $46.75 (All-In), UTG+1 calls $26.75

Total pot: $102.25 | Rake: $3

Results:
Hero had Qhttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...miles/club.gif, 10http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...miles/club.gif (one pair, sevens).
UTG+1 had 7http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/heart.gif, 6http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/heart.gif (three of a kind, sevens).
Outcome: UTG+1 won $99.25

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You want flamage? Are you SERIOUS? Shit Micro...this is a shitty hand. Worst I've seen in a while. What the fuck were you thinking? Let's not have this happen again. Didn't you tell me FPS is to be avoided at all costs?

And with that flamage, I will show admiration:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Micro2Macro

Volume goals for the month are no longer valid, as this just leads to pressure to play which may lead to playing when I shouldn't.

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I enjoy that. However, we must still set goals for ourselves. Avoid spewing with fucking QUEEN HIGH at all costs!

Thanks for dropping in Boog690.

I discussed the situation with JKDS in IRC and came to the conclusion that after being out in the sun all afternoon I was too exhausted to play poker and this was the likely cause of being impatient/tilty during the session, which inevitably led to this major spew. I felt like I wasn't thinking well about anything at all, so I need to be better prepared next time when facing the decision of whether to play or not, and do whatever is best for my expectation.

In this case, taking the evening off from the tables would have been the correct decision. Live and learn.

Today is a new day...no more fucking around.

Well you know what you did and what you have to do, so I have nothing to say. Good luck my friend.

Played a quick session of 50nl this morning. Played well, was focused etc.

I think I may have missed a profitable 4betting opportunity, so I'll explore that later on.

As for 50nl sessions I think I'm going to keep them short and sweet for now (~ 1 hour) and typically only play 1-2 a day until I'm fully comfortable.

Post the 4betting hand!

About the ~1hr sessions... You may find it useful to play for an hour, then take a 5 minute break. If they don't kick you out after 5 minutes, you don't even need to leave your table, just sit out.

To each his own. If you like this process, then stick with it, but I'm not sure I think this is a good approach. It looks like you're trying straddle the stakes ... like slowly dipping your foot in the water or something to make sure it's not too cold or shark invested ;)

I briefly tried that method when I made my first jump from $2NL to $5NL and came to the conclusion that I was only doing it out of fear and that I had already, through bankroll management and beating my last stake, built a system through which I had no reason to play $2NL anymore and no valid reason to fear $5NL. I had 10 full buy-ins to "take a shot" at the next level. If I lost that many buy-ins, then I was clearly not ready for it and could drop down a level where I could clearly win back the money and try again another day. It's important to give yourself permission to fail through either coolers, bad beats, bad play, or whatever as long as you are trying to play @ your best. It's much worse to try to rise up and play scared money because you'll never be @ your best.

So, I would argue you're either ready for $50NL and should jump in full time with both feet or you're not and you should focus on $25NL. With this 1-2 hour a day method, you're putting $50NL on a pedestal and making the challenge larger than it should be both mentally and game wise with the subtle differences between each stakes as far as blinds, raise sizes, and villain tendencies. I've only been playing full time $50NL for a whole 3 days and it's taken me half-way through day 3 to realize that when a shortstack shoves allin for $10, that's the same number of big blinds as $5 @ $25NL - it seems like more @ $50NL. That example and so many other things add up, but by me focusing right now on one stake, I'll adjust better and faster.

The exception that I could see as being more acceptable is when you get to the higher stakes and the game selection just isn't there like @ $1000NL, $600NL, and maybe $400NL. As you move up more, there could be more situations where a really juicy $200NL table is twice as good as a tough, nit invested $400NL table. But, I'm pretty sure there's always a juicy enough selection of games @ $50NL to keep a capable, rolled player out of $25.

Anyway, just some food for thought - good luck with whatever you do.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by dev

Post the 4betting hand!

About the ~1hr sessions... You may find it useful to play for an hour, then take a 5 minute break. If they don't kick you out after 5 minutes, you don't even need to leave your table, just sit out.

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Yeah, right around the 1hr mark my tables starting breaking, and I felt a bit thirsty so I figured it would be a good idea just to shut down and come back later. Doing so felt pretty good - most of my tilt spews happen around the 2hr mark so stopping well before that point feels damn good.

Here's the hand: http://weaktight.com/1319781

Now, 4betting isn't the only option here of course, calling is probably okay, as is folding (I guess). I felt I didn't have enough information on him to really 4bet, and I felt it would be hard to extract value postflop with KQ in a 3bet pot without knowing villains postflop tendencies, so I folded.

Villain seemed Taggy, he was about 15/10 over 50 or so hands and was 12-15 tabling. So I had reason to believe he was a reg and that he is capable of understanding postion/3betting light at appropriate times. My image is probably somewhat taggy, perhaps on the loose end a bit in late position with a 50% ATS...

Boog690 and I worked out the math of 4betting and did some work on how many combos of 'light' 4bets he needs in his range to fold assuming his 5bet range is 'x'. I don't think I'll bother posting what I wrote out..but if you're interested I can send you a PM and maybe we can discuss, or start a new thread somewhere on 4betting maths.

What do you think about each of our options? Would you ever consider 4betting a light 3bettor here with this hand, or would you rather call? I feel if I held KQs I'd rather see a flop, though with KQo we hold blockers to typical hands that continue to a 4bet (QQ/KK/AK), so we have some decent fold equty pre..

Villain hasn't 3bet us before though, so due to lack of history I think his range will likely be at its tightest here until he discovers I can fold, and THEN he will adjust by loosening up his 3bet range, in which case, we can then adjust and begin 4betting hands we'd otherwise fold.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Jason

To each his own. If you like this process, then stick with it, but I'm not sure I think this is a good approach. It looks like you're trying straddle the stakes ... like slowly dipping your foot in the water or something to make sure it's not too cold or shark invested ;)

I briefly tried that method when I made my first jump from $2NL to $5NL and came to the conclusion that I was only doing it out of fear and that I had already, through bankroll management and beating my last stake, built a system through which I had no reason to play $2NL anymore and no valid reason to fear $5NL. I had 10 full buy-ins to "take a shot" at the next level. If I lost that many buy-ins, then I was clearly not ready for it and could drop down a level where I could clearly win back the money and try again another day. It's important to give yourself permission to fail through either coolers, bad beats, bad play, or whatever as long as you are trying to play @ your best. It's much worse to try to rise up and play scared money because you'll never be @ your best.

So, I would argue you're either ready for $50NL and should jump in full time with both feet or you're not and you should focus on $25NL. With this 1-2 hour a day method, you're putting $50NL on a pedestal and making the challenge larger than it should be both mentally and game wise with the subtle differences between each stakes as far as blinds, raise sizes, and villain tendencies. I've only been playing full time $50NL for a whole 3 days and it's taken me half-way through day 3 to realize that when a shortstack shoves allin for $10, that's the same number of big blinds as $5 @ $25NL - it seems like more @ $50NL. That example and so many other things add up, but by me focusing right now on one stake, I'll adjust better and faster.

The exception that I could see as being more acceptable is when you get to the higher stakes and the game selection just isn't there like @ $1000NL, $600NL, and maybe $400NL. As you move up more, there could be more situations where a really juicy $200NL table is twice as good as a tough, nit invested $400NL table. But, I'm pretty sure there's always a juicy enough selection of games @ $50NL to keep a capable, rolled player out of $25.

Anyway, just some food for thought - good luck with whatever you do.

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Well I haven't really been playing scared money, I just feel like I'm getting outplayed by the regs...then everytime I decide to make a light calldown they have a set or something retardedly nut like. So it kills my confidence a bit when I feel like I'm getting pwned.

Regarding the $ amounts, I still feel comfortable pushing 20bb into a short stacker bvb even though it's '$10' now instead of $5. That;s just an example, but the same thing applies to semi-bluffing and value betting. I just look at the pot and think about what percentage I want to bet, then determine the $ amount it is equal to.

I think I've got past that stage pretty quickly, right now my biggest problem is not whipping out my e-dick and getting into reg wars because I feel like I'm being 'outplayed'. So for that reason, until I settle in, I'm taking it slow. However, I see merits to your suggestion of just getting in and playing. It actually makes alot of sense because...

...I think the biggest fear I have is the results. What if I'm not a winning 50nl player? What if I breakeven for 50k hands? What if --- I should stop worrying and just play. The only way I'm going to find out the answers to these questions I fear is by putting in the time to play 50nl. If I don't play, I'll never know where I stand. In other words, in order to conquer this fear of seeing my results down the road, I need to address the fear face-to-face and just sit at 50nl.

I think this is a hand that should be calling or folding to the 3bet.

If we're calling 3bets here ever, I think KQ should be in the calling range.

Assuming he's defending with a reasonable range, KQ is too good to 4bet/fold but too bad to 4bet/call. We can raise a certain range, but it should be hands that are significantly better than KQ (stack off hands) and hands that can easily fold if he shoves.

I wrote the above before really reading your analysis. The thing that sticks out at me is that he's 10-15 tabling 50nl FR. Even if he's a hudbot he's probably not 3betting super-light. I give him credit until I see a reason not to.

Cool. What types of hands would you recommend 4betting if we assume he's 3betting light enough to start adjusting?

It depends on what he does after the flop.

If he's playing fit or fold in 3bet pots then my calling range is wide.

If we might get outplayed after the flop then I think we've got to 4bet for value pretty much any time he could be calling or 5betting with worse.

I don't play FR, but I think this guy is too tight to be 3betting light. It works better if he's like an 18/15. Also, if a guy is playing 12+ tables and starts 3betting light, you can just make him miserable by 4bet bluffing and calling for value. He's got to fold a lot of his 3bet range to bluffs and play OOP vs. you when you have the goods and can put the pressure on after the flop. He probably wouldn't figure it out until after a session or two (if he figures it out at all).

One more thought that should probably weigh in all our decisions is how well are we beating our current stake? If you were only beating $25NL in the 1bb-4bb (.5ptbb-2ptbb) per 100 hands range over 50k to 100k hands, then, yes, that is probably a legitimate concern if you can beat your next stake, but I feel like even if you have a low sample in the 10k to 50k range, if the win-rate is pretty high around 10bb-30bb (5ptbb-15ptbb) range, that SHOULD be a reasonable indication that you will at least be a winner @ $50NL or whatever the next stake may be. I've yet to hear a clear consensus that there is ANY one stake where there's a dramatic drop off in win rate or dramatic rise of skill level.

As for that hand, I think folding is right. What hands does a 15/10 12-15 tabling player raise with in early position that we feel good about calling with KQo? Without a confident read, raising back just seems spewy to me. We do have position and he could be raising light because he thinks you're stealing, but for 6x more bb's, you better have a good read with a range we think we can play profitably, hope he misses, hope you hit and you're not dominated - that's a lot of skating on thin ice. Just give him your 3bb's and pick a better spot ... oh nevermind, you did ;)

Well I'm breakeven at 50nl over 10k hands.

Something to keep in mind: I've spewed a few buyins. Let's just say that I have lost 5 after adding up all the poor bluffs/call downs/etc.

If none of that happened I'd be a 5bb/100 winner.

Shows you how important executing the correct decision is, regardless of whether you know it to be right or not.

I guess this is pretty standard (for me) moving up. I broke even for a while at 10nl, and 25nl, so it's not a big surprise here. Eventually things will turn around. Until then I must make sure that I'm playing my best at all times, and aren't tired/tilty/hungry/thirsty/etc while doing so.

sigh....fuck poker

Alright changing gears now. I seem to tilt pretty bad when I'm at the table and for a few minutes after, but I manage to snap out of it pretty quick. I think I'm suffering from some burnout...I'm not going to get into details about it, I know why etc. and working towards fixing that for next month. The biggest thing for me right now is to see the tilt coming before it happens...it's kind of hard to do when you get top set cracked multiple times in a session...but playing catch up is just too stressfull. I tend to force things if I know I'm down money in a session, even though it doesn't even matter because the money went in good.

Anyway, I'll be idle from any cash games until Friday. If you guys see me on Stars grinding 25nl-50nl full ring, heads up, or 6max, please slap me tyty.

Fuck tiny sample sizes, ok? I have 55K hands at 50NL FR. I have 2 10K BE stretches and 2 15K hand BE stretches. Yet I am nearly beating the stake for 3.5ptbbs.

You are a tremendous player, and better than almost everyone at your level. We all have issues with emotional control. When we master those, the clarity with which we will live will have been worth all the effort.

You know where to find me!

See you at the $4.40 180 man SnG's ;)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Illfavor

Fuck tiny sample sizes, ok? I have 55K hands at 50NL FR. I have 2 10K BE stretches and 2 15K hand BE stretches. Yet I am nearly beating the stake for 3.5ptbbs.

You are a tremendous player, and better than almost everyone at your level. We all have issues with emotional control. When we master those, the clarity with which we will live will have been worth all the effort.

You know where to find me!

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this has helped me put things into perspective, ty.

d-d-d-donkaments!

Ok I am sorry, I really hate posting short term graphs, but this is just too sexy and looking at it is a relatively cheap and effective confidence booster:

http://img189.imageshack.us/img189/5363/25nlwee6max.png

And I still got stacked twice as a >70% favorite :D, not that it isn't incredibly standard or anything, but I didn't let it affect my play, and hence, I kept climbing up those stairs.

This is 6max btw...

Today was my winningest day at NLHE cash games. I finished up about 10 buyins or so divided amongst 25nl and 50nl 6max.

+$342.60

I usually don't post results often but I guess this result is kind of cool since it is pretty motivating to me. This is because I know I played with a very clear head today, and depsite the fact I ran well, there's no way I could have done this without playing my best. I think I got stacked 4-5 times as a huge favorite and it didn't affect my decision making at all..which is new to me in some ways. I was playing 6max and 'expecting' more swongs, so I guess I was just overall better prepared to face what would inevitably happen during the game.

So for the future I'm going to continue to play the best I possibly can, which should increase the chances of days like this happening down the road, and put days of trying to outplay ex 600nl regs into the past.