the massacre at Haditha

I figured it was a matter of time before something like this happened in Iraq.

http://www.time.com/time/world/artic...174649,00.html

Basically, this is what happened. An IED went off during a patrol, killing a lance corporal and injuring a few others. The Marines go apeshit and start killing civilians. When the smoke clears there's 24 dead Iraqi's and a lot of lying to be done.

"One woman ... was bending over a child, pleading for mercy, and they shot her in cold blood." -Murtha

The first person to mention something about bad apples wins an asskicking from me.

Boys will be boys.

all work and no play makes jack a dull boy

the media sucks

seriously though, don't let a few spoiled tomatoes cloud your judgement.

the road to hell is paved with good intentions

Cliché quotations make the world go round.

i'm going to withhold my judgement until there's more info and more credible info available.

seriously though can't we talk about zach's motion machine or something of the sort???

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Originally Posted by grnydrowave2

seriously though, don't let a few spoiled tomatoes cloud your judgement.

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don't make me bite you in the nuts

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Originally Posted by PO$$E$$ED

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Originally Posted by grnydrowave2

seriously though, don't let a few spoiled tomatoes cloud your judgement.

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don't make me bite you in the nuts

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4-8 people out of 120,000 isn't exactly a representative sample.

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Originally Posted by grnydrowave2

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Originally Posted by PO$$E$$ED

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Originally Posted by grnydrowave2

seriously though, don't let a few spoiled tomatoes cloud your judgement.

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don't make me bite you in the nuts

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4-8 people out of 120,000 isn't exactly a representative sample.

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Sample Size = Too Small

a few? lol
estimates say that between 38,000 and 42,500 civilians have been killed in Iraq so far
you're telling me that all these deaths were accidental, that they were all collateral damage? k brb bbq
your argument is so weak it makes my balls hurt

civilians have been killed intentionally before and after Habitha,they have just been covered up a lot better

interesting fact- did you know that the rangers in pat tillman's unit burned his body armor (upon direct orders to do so from their superiors) to get rid of evidence that he died from friendly fire?
the army intel knew that tillman got killed by his own, but they didn't disclose this information to the public until weeks after tillman's memorial service
fucking scumbags

oh and that whole abu ghraib thing too
hmm what was that about 4-5 bad apples?

"Jimmy Massey, a former staff sergeant, told AFP that the daily attacks now confronting US-led forces and Iraqi civilians were "because of the brutality that the Iraqi people saw at the start of the invasion". In his book, Kill! Kill! Kill!, he says he and other marines in his unit killed dozens of unarmed Iraqi civilians because of an exaggerated sense of threat, and that they often experienced sexual-type thrills doing so. The book was being released first in France - and in French - because, he said, "I didn't find an American publisher".
http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exer...37B65B12D0.htm

Yea I always get a huge boner when I'm watch "Bloodsport," I can totally relate to these marines

or not

Geee...i bet iraqi civilians lived in paradise before the war.....


http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/3253783.stm

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Originally Posted by lambchopdc

Geee...i bet iraqi civilians lived in paradise before the war.....


http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/3253783.stm

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your argument sucks so hard it blows
go play an MTT or something

Possessed, one more unconstructive critisism like "your argument sucks so hard my balls hurt" and this thread gets locked.

"See no evil, hear no evil, speak no evil"

Applies not just to this event, but to the whole situation.

“If we do not hear, see, or speak evil, we ourselves shall be spared all evil.”

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Originally Posted by lambchopdc

Geee...i bet iraqi civilians lived in paradise before the war.....


http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/3253783.stm

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The mass graves mostly included the remains of ethnic Kurds and Shia Muslims killed for opposing the regime between 1983 and 1991, she said.

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You mean like...when he was our ally? Yea that definatly backs up our side.

its funny that all of the charges against saddam used in the buildup to the war actually occured while the US was his ally and supplying him with fun things such as gas to use on the Kurds.

What kind of people do you think join the military? People who like to kill people. Does this surprise anyone?

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Originally Posted by Rondavu

What kind of people do you think join the military? People who like to kill people. Does this surprise anyone?

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And people who can't get into school. Not the brightest apples PO$$E$$ED!!!!!!!!

cease fire friendlies, I'm Pat fucking Tillman goddammit

Possessed

These marines experienced a situation that you will never experience in your life. Explosions, bullets flying through the air, fellow marines dying. Is it possible that they overreacted and killed some innocent civilians, yes. All people make mistakes, when soldiers make mistakes they have greater consequences than when you make a mistake. People die when soldiers make mistakes whether they be civilians or your fellow soldiers. So, Possed until you are placed into a similar situation, you should not pass judgment on these soldiers. My guess if you were placed in this situation you would crawl in a ditch and cry for you mommy.

The truth probably lies somewhere in between the media report and the marines statement. If that is the case the military will punish the soldiers according.

SSG Fleagle (OIF veteran)

That's what I said about OJ. Who are we to judge him? Until we're in the position of brutally beating our wife, we can not judge him.

I get significantly dumber with each 'bigred' post that I read.

Then my plan is working.

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Originally Posted by poorfish

Possessed

These marines experienced a situation that you will never experience in your life. Explosions, bullets flying through the air, fellow marines dying. Is it possible that they overreacted and killed some innocent civilians, yes. All people make mistakes, when soldiers make mistakes they have greater consequences than when you make a mistake. People die when soldiers make mistakes whether they be civilians or your fellow soldiers. So, Possed until you are placed into a similar situation, you should not pass judgment on these soldiers. My guess if you were placed in this situation you would crawl in a ditch and cry for you mommy.

The truth probably lies somewhere in between the media report and the marines statement. If that is the case the military will punish the soldiers according.

SSG Fleagle (OIF veteran)

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But seriously. What on earth is he trying to say? Po$$e$$ed would crawl in a ditch while crying to his mommy? As opposed to what? Slaughtering inoocent people?

I just killed someone for looking at my ice cream.

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Originally Posted by poorfish

If that is the case the military will punish the soldiers according.

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even though they should probably be punishing these soldiers superior officers in almost all cases such as this. take abu ghraib. do you really think a bunch of MP's got it into their heads all on their own to put black hoods on these prisoners and pile them naked on top of each other?? come on.

And if you as soldiers are not adequately trained to handle a high pressure situation such as combat then perhaps you should alert a superior officer to relieve you of duty until you are ready. or even alert a superior to someone else who is clearly not ready within your unit.

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Originally Posted by pgil

even though they should probably be punishing these soldiers superior officers in almost all cases such as this. take abu ghraib. do you really think a bunch of MP's got it into their heads all on their own to put black hoods on these prisoners and pile them naked on top of each other?? come on.

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A bunch of 18-24 year soldiers who most likely signed up for the military/reserves so they could go to college for free and then "surprise" got called off to war.......yes.

its easy to be an armchair general

i mean, if a bunch of keyboard warriors can make perfect descisions regarding everything, its just that much easier for well trained army personnel to make those desicions while shit is asploding. NHGGSIIHP. AMIRITE? OMGLOLROFLSKATES.

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Originally Posted by poorfish

Possessed

These marines experienced a situation that you will never experience in your life. Explosions, bullets flying through the air, fellow marines dying. Is it possible that they overreacted and killed some innocent civilians, yes. All people make mistakes, when soldiers make mistakes they have greater consequences than when you make a mistake. People die when soldiers make mistakes whether they be civilians or your fellow soldiers. So, Possed until you are placed into a similar situation, you should not pass judgment on these soldiers.

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So if I get beaten up on the way home from a night out, its ok for me to go get a kitchen knife and start stabbing random people on the street who by the way are totally different people to the ones who beat me up? I guess the courts wouldnt really be in a position to judge unless they had been beaten up too...

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Originally Posted by PO$$E$$ED

"
http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/486961E1-A0E5-413E-8DCB-3637B65B12D0.htm"

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Wow. All this AND you read Al Jazeera. Do you burn the American flag and wear a beret too?

The position of undeniable guilt on the part of the soldiers is just as ridiculous as the ones on here claiming undeniable innocence.

More often than not the truth lies somewhere in between.

Is what happened ok? Absolutely not. I'd refrain from saying it was intentional until I knew more actual facts. Based on past history, Time's coverage is clearly to the left and anti-war, just as anything the military says is going to slant to the right and CYA.

As for the Marines lying, I think it's a combination of covering for themselves and sheer stress of the situation clouding the facts and their memory.

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Originally Posted by bigred

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Originally Posted by Rondavu

What kind of people do you think join the military? People who like to kill people. Does this surprise anyone?

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And people who can't get into school. Not the brightest apples PO$$E$$ED!!!!!!!!

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:roll: You're an elitist retard. Just because someone can't afford to go to school doesn't mean they can't get into school.

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Originally Posted by BeatMeBad

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Originally Posted by PO$$E$$ED

"
http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/486961E1-A0E5-413E-8DCB-3637B65B12D0.htm"

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Wow. All this AND you read Al Jazeera. Do you burn the American flag and wear a beret too?

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Spoken like a true FOX News watcher.

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Originally Posted by Warpe

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Originally Posted by BeatMeBad

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Originally Posted by PO$$E$$ED

"
http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/486961E1-A0E5-413E-8DCB-3637B65B12D0.htm"

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Wow. All this AND you read Al Jazeera. Do you burn the American flag and wear a beret too?

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Spoken like a true FOX News watcher.

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Don't watch Fox. Not far enough to the right for me. I'm slightly to the left of Ghengis Khan and moving farther right each and every day. Considering joining the Fascist party at the present time because short of pushing the pendulum that far to the other side, there's no correcting this shithole society. Rampant liberalism (read: Communism/Socialism) set free in the 60's has damn near achieved its objective and this country will collapse under its own weight in my lifetime.

At least you lefties can move to Canada. All I have is Costa Rica (sorta).

(Btw, to my original point: Listening to ANYTHING Al Jazeera puts out is akin to listening to Joseph Goebbels in WW2. It's blatant propoganda with one ultimate objective: to spill American blood)

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Originally Posted by BeatMeBad

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Originally Posted by Warpe

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Originally Posted by BeatMeBad

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Originally Posted by PO$$E$$ED

"
http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/486961E1-A0E5-413E-8DCB-3637B65B12D0.htm"

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Wow. All this AND you read Al Jazeera. Do you burn the American flag and wear a beret too?

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Spoken like a true FOX News watcher.

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Don't watch Fox. Not far enough to the right for me. I'm slightly to the left of Ghengis Khan and moving farther right each and every day. Considering joining the Fascist party at the present time because short of pushing the pendulum that far to the other side, there's no correcting this shithole society. Rampant liberalism (read: Communism/Socialism) set free in the 60's has damn near achieved its objective and this country will collapse under its own weight in my lifetime.

At least you lefties can move to Canada. All I have is Costa Rica (sorta).

(Btw, to my original point: Listening to ANYTHING Al Jazeera puts out is akin to listening to Joseph Goebbels in WW2. It's blatant propoganda with one ultimate objective: to spill American blood)

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Amen, brother.

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Originally Posted by BeatMeBad

(Btw, to my original point: Listening to ANYTHING Al Jazeera puts out is akin to listening to Joseph Goebbels in WW2. It's blatant propoganda with one ultimate objective: to spill American blood)

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Godwin, ftw.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin's_law

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Don't watch Fox. Not far enough to the right for me. I'm slightly to the left of Ghengis Khan and moving farther right each and every day. Considering joining the Fascist party at the present time because short of pushing the pendulum that far to the other side, there's no correcting this shithole society. Rampant liberalism (read: Communism/Socialism) set free in the 60's has damn near achieved its objective and this country will collapse under its own weight in my lifetime.

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Sounds like you and OBL would agree on a lot of points.

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Godwin, ftw.

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Godwiiiiiiiiiiiiiin!!!!

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Originally Posted by Warpe

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Originally Posted by BeatMeBad

(Btw, to my original point: Listening to ANYTHING Al Jazeera puts out is akin to listening to Joseph Goebbels in WW2. It's blatant propoganda with one ultimate objective: to spill American blood)

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Godwin, ftw.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin's_law

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I move for a dismissal. I intentionally did NOT mention Hitler or the Nazis to avoid this. True, Goebbels was a Nazi but he was also a purveyor of lies and half-truths. Him being a Nazi was incidental, not integral to my point.

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Originally Posted by Pelion

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Originally Posted by poorfish

Possessed

These marines experienced a situation that you will never experience in your life. Explosions, bullets flying through the air, fellow marines dying. Is it possible that they overreacted and killed some innocent civilians, yes. All people make mistakes, when soldiers make mistakes they have greater consequences than when you make a mistake. People die when soldiers make mistakes whether they be civilians or your fellow soldiers. So, Possed until you are placed into a similar situation, you should not pass judgment on these soldiers.

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So if I get beaten up on the way home from a night out, its ok for me to go get a kitchen knife and start stabbing random people on the street who by the way are totally different people to the ones who beat me up? I guess the courts wouldnt really be in a position to judge unless they had been beaten up too...

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Getting beaten up is exactly the same as having a friend get killed and others wounded and hardly being able to take a step without knowing if it'll be your last. Exactly the same.

woah woah, you're saying fox news is more fair and balanced than al jihad news? why don't you and W just move in together.

I forgot this thread was about fox news and not innocent people massacred.

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Originally Posted by bigred

I forgot this thread was about fox news and not innocent people massacred.

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please don't get off topic again, thx

i find this thread kindof silly.

to the people who want to keep this all serious. what are you looking to hear? is there really any serious discussion to be had here?

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Originally Posted by Greedo017

i find this thread kindof silly.

to the people who want to keep this all serious. what are you looking to hear? is there really any serious discussion to be had here?

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Yes, we can talk about how sexy I am.

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Originally Posted by ekillian

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Originally Posted by Pelion

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Originally Posted by poorfish

Possessed

These marines experienced a situation that you will never experience in your life. Explosions, bullets flying through the air, fellow marines dying. Is it possible that they overreacted and killed some innocent civilians, yes. All people make mistakes, when soldiers make mistakes they have greater consequences than when you make a mistake. People die when soldiers make mistakes whether they be civilians or your fellow soldiers. So, Possed until you are placed into a similar situation, you should not pass judgment on these soldiers.

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So if I get beaten up on the way home from a night out, its ok for me to go get a kitchen knife and start stabbing random people on the street who by the way are totally different people to the ones who beat me up? I guess the courts wouldnt really be in a position to judge unless they had been beaten up too...

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Getting beaten up is exactly the same as having a friend get killed and others wounded and hardly being able to take a step without knowing if it'll be your last. Exactly the same.

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No but going out afterwards and massacaring random families is exactly the same as going out afterwards and massacaring random families.

Breaking down the doors to civilian homes and shooting random people inside is not justified just because SOMEONE ELSE shot one of your friends.

My point was to show that the argument "you cant judge someone for something unless its happened to you too" is ridiculous.

If these marines cant handle the pressures they are under then thats one more reason why they shouldnt be there.

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Originally Posted by Pelion

If these marines cant handle the pressures they are under then thats one more reason why they shouldnt be there.

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if this is true, then it is true in all wars. assuming you think some wars are necessary, it is thus an irrelevant point.

I'm not sure that this forum is necessarily equipped for real, intelligent moral debates, but I'm bored so I'll add my two cents.

The argument that we can't judge soldiers because we aren't in their own situation is just silly. Certainly, our armed services carry a heavy burden, and the psychological toll of living in a warzone (particularly one in which you don't know precisely who your enemies are) is excruciatingly difficult. Even so, moral codes of conduct certainly apply. Militaries are important, but only if they exists for something. That is, to defend our country and the ideals that is ostensibly stands for, including principles of democracy and justice. In this case, a major component (and the only viable one, though in my opinion still unjustified) of the justification for troop presence is securing the country from terrorists. The moral defense of soldiers end when the moral difference between so-called terrorists and soldiers ceases to exist. The difference between terrorists and soldiers should not be that one wears a uniform and one doesn't, it should be that one kills civilians, and the other defends them. If a soldier kills a civilian, under duress or not, they have crossed the line of acceptable moral defense. It's just that simple.

When these soldiers shot and killed innocent civilians, it’s horrible enough, but the military can’t afford to defend them if it care about my friends in a United States uniform. People kill out of anger. How many more angry Iraqis does a massacre of this scale create? How many more teenagers will be angered enough to listen to a recruiter telling them that justice, and religion, requires them to strap a bomb to their chest and walk into an Iraqi police station. When things like this happen, it just means that more people are willing to kill my friends, and less people are willing to defend my friends. It also means that if military folks are captured, this is thrown in their face, and then used as a justification for torture. Or it leads to another string of kidnappings. Judging, and punishing, people who cause that to happen is far from a moral outrage (because we can’t understand their situation), it’s a moral imperative within the situation.

If you can't think about the Iraqi people as a reason for condemning those who participate in a massacre, then at least think about their comrades.

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Originally Posted by Greedo017

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Originally Posted by Pelion

If these marines cant handle the pressures they are under then thats one more reason why they shouldnt be there.

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if this is true, then it is true in all wars. assuming you think some wars are necessary, it is thus an irrelevant point.

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We're supposedly keeping troops there to defend iraqi civilians and to prevent the country from falling into a civil war (which it apparently isnt in yet).

US troops masacaring civilians falls somewhat short of this objective dont you think?

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Originally Posted by Pelion

We're supposedly keeping troops there to defend iraqi civilians and to prevent the country from falling into a civil war (which it apparently isnt in yet).

US troops masacaring civilians falls somewhat short of this objective dont you think?

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this doesn't address my point at all.

So what are you saying, this falls short of this objective, as opposed to other wars during which things like this have happened, where our objective was to massacre the innocent civilians?

Or are you trying to say that because our soldiers killed 20 people on purpose, the country would be better off with no soldiers at all? Seems to me, given the tens of thousands of deaths in this war already, abandoning their people over 20 deaths is pretty short sighted. Arguing that we should pull our troops out of that country is pathetic and is driven by nothing more than ignorance, blind dislike for the republican party, or irrational attachment to pacifism.

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Originally Posted by Greedo017

Or are you trying to say that because our soldiers killed 20 people on purpose, the country would be better off with no soldiers at all?

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Originally Posted by Greedo017

Seems to me, given the tens of thousands of deaths in this war already, abandoning their people over 20 deaths is pretty short sighted.

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If you think its just 20 then maybe you are the one who is ignorant?

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Originally Posted by Greedo017

Arguing that we should pull our troops out of that country is pathetic and is driven by nothing more than ignorance, blind dislike for the republican party, or irrational attachment to pacifism.

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I dont like the republican party but what the hell does that have to do with it? I dont arbitrarily decide to dislike a party and then disagree with their actions. The reason I dislike them is because they do things like invading countries around the world for their resources....but thats a different topic.

As for pacifism, Im not a pacifist and Im perfectly happy to fight for what I believe in. I dont believe this war is right in anyway. The overwhelming percentage of people killed in iraq has been iraqi civillians.

The fact is iraq isnt getting any more peaceful, and IMO it is far more likely to stabilise when it is no longer being occupied by a foreign army. Stories like this just make it even less likely that the country will stabilise while our troops are there.

Most of the iraqi people who are fighting against the occupation now probably made the decision to fight when a family member or friend was killed. We call these people terrorists and insurgents. Perhaps a coverup of Haditha shows double standards?

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Originally Posted by Pelion

and IMO it is far more likely to stabilise when it is no longer being occupied by a foreign army.

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how?

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Originally Posted by Pelion

If you think its just 20 then maybe you are the one who is ignorant?

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uh, ok, so how many other iraqi's have been executed? link? surely you couldn't be referring to all the other iraqi's that have died accidentally, because I mention that in my post and it actually helps my point...

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Originally Posted by Pelion

and IMO it is far more likely to stabilise when it is no longer being occupied by a foreign army.

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I grant you, your opinion isn't as outlandish as it was just a few months ago. The time for troops to start withdrawing is getting closer. But, just because the iraqi's don't want us there, doesn't mean they know what's best for themselves. It is better to sacrifice people now in order to give them the best possible shot at being stable once we leave, than to leave now and doom them to years of inevitable civil war.

oh, and about the insurgents. they are terrorists, regardless of their motive. it doesn't mean they're with al queda, or that once we leave they won't return to being a normal citizen, but they're still terrorists. A lot of insurgents probably are temporary due to just wanting the u.s. out for whatever reason. But, leaving prematurely just to stop the insurgency is short-sighted.

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Originally Posted by Greedo017

It is better to sacrifice people now in order to give them the best possible shot at being stable once we leave...

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Some of us dont agree that America has a God given right to decide who to sacrifice in other peoples countries.

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Originally Posted by Greedo017

oh, and about the insurgents. they are terrorists, regardless of their motive. it doesn't mean they're with al queda, or that once we leave they won't return to being a normal citizen, but they're still terrorists. A lot of insurgents probably are temporary due to just wanting the u.s. out for whatever reason. But, leaving prematurely just to stop the insurgency is short-sighted.

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No doubt if they were fighting against the communists the media would be calling them freedom fighters. US troops in Haditha have done the same thing as many iraqi terrorists have (wrongly) done elswhere. The difference is that iraqi terrorists can argue that they are defending their own families.


I cant really afford the time to go hunting around for links right now since im in the middle of exams but heres one article

http://www.uruknet.info/?p=m23611&l=i&size=1&hd=0

You may also remember the news footage released last year of an american fighter bombing a crowd of "insurgents" in the street who were in the middle of a ferocious gunfight with coalition troops, despite the fact that they were clearly unarmed and were in the middle of the street making no attempt to take cover.

just remember the 'insurgents' that you now call the founding fathers. they would be classified as terrorists fighting against an occuppier that just had their best interests at heart according to you. the major difference being that the British had more of a claim on the colonies than the US currently does in Iraq. They were the ruling force and were ousted, as opposed to the situation in Iraq where an outside nation has invaded, and the Iraqi people are simply attempting to defend their country from this outside invader.

Imagine if you will, that the US has in 10 years been invaded by China, and the Chinese go to the world community and claim that due to the corrupt, unstable leadership in the US that they were a threat to the safety of the Chinese and preemptive action was necessary to safeguard the chinese way of life. its not too far fetched given the US record of aggression towards certain countries and their possession of large stockpiles of weapons of mass destruction.
would you take up arms against the larger, better trained, and better equipped chinese army and do everything in your power to try to free your country from this evil invader?? I think you would. Would you take them on in a full frontal assault (where you would be slaughtered) or would you attempt to use guerilla tactics, which are really your only possible means of success?

the answers are quite clear, but since it is happening in Iraq they are insurgents, not freedom fighters.
aren't double standards fun.

my question is - Why are we, as Americans, ALWAYS required to take the high ground? They capture civilian workers and send us videos of them cutting their heads off - They send school aged children in front of our tanks to stop them so they can attack us (remember when they had to order the tank drivers to run over anyone who got in front of the tanks, regardless of if they were children or not?) - Now, I am not standing up and defending what happened - I don't personally think we should be in Iraq at all - But we are, and I support the soldiers - Couple quotes from above...1st, all people don't join the military because they want to kill people - Don't be so blatantly ignorant - I have several friends and a little brother who was in the Marine Corps - none of them are homicidal maniacs - they join for various reasons - School, Comradery, a steady job (when your 18 and in a small town, decent jobs can be hard to come by) not to mention just joining to test yourself and become a man - Further, comparing getting beaten up on the way home to having a fellow soldier killed is retarded - lets get real - They are in a country where EVERYONE there hates them - They are not there because they chose to be there, they were SENT there - we have a thread in the forum about injuries sustained while playing poker - I've slammed a few things, and broken some stuff - I know lots of players post the same kind of stuff - It's emotional response and it's strong...AND IT'S ONLY IN A POKER GAME! Can you imagine the same kind of emotional rage you might feel if you were in a war? you take 1 bad beat and you kick the dog - Compare that to having your best friend killed...You don't think you would react? I can't support what they did, but I can understand -

Also, I hate to sound this way - but we hold ourselves to these high moral standards, in a WAR, but we don't talk about genocide going on in Africa - Americans ignore so many more important things in the world where we could actually MAKE a difference....But if its not in our interest, we ignore it - we've got our attention focused on the wrong shit people - NCIS is already investigating this - of course they want to keep it quiet - can anyone blame them for that?

what the fuck emotional response could lead you to separate women and children from men, slaughter the men, and then go and slaughter the women and children???????

there is absolutely nothing that you could say that would come even close to justifying this kind of behaviour.

I dont care if a group of people just gangraped your mother, this is still not a justifiable emotional response.
i dont care if you just watched somebody slowly skin your best friend alive while he screamed in pain, this is still not a justifiable response. and do you know why, because the women and children had nothing to do with it, and were probably subjected to worse shit than you over the course of this occupation, both at your hands and at the hands of the opposing force.

I believe that once again a Nietzsche quote is in order:
Take care that when you fight with monsters that you do not become one; for when you stare long into the abyss, the abyss stares into you.

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Originally Posted by pgil

what the fuck emotional response could lead you to separate women and children from men, slaughter the men, and then go and slaughter the women and children???????

there is absolutely nothing that you could say that would come even close to justifying this kind of behaviour.

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When there's some proof that it went down that way, I'll side with you. Until then, that's speculation as much as those who are in here saying the troops were acting in a completely justified manner and must have been provoked.

That said, while it's inexcusable that something like this should ever happen, the actions of a small minority of soldiers should not reflect on the whole.

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just remember the 'insurgents' that you now call the founding fathers. they would be classified as terrorists fighting against an occuppier that just had their best interests at heart according to you. the major difference being that the British had more of a claim on the colonies than the US currently does in Iraq. They were the ruling force and were ousted, as opposed to the situation in Iraq where an outside nation has invaded, and the Iraqi people are simply attempting to defend their country from this outside invader.

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As for soldiers in the revolutionary war being 'terrorists' - attacking armed forces is an insurgent action - if that was all Iraqi insurgents were doing, you might have a valid point.

When Sunnis and Shiites make practice of walking into crowded market areas in the middle of towns of their opposing factions and blow themselves, civilians and US troops up in one fell swoop... when they sabotage their own electrical/water/sewage systems ... well, I don't see how that can be placed into the same category. This has nothing to do with guerrilla tactics, it only concerns who the attacks inflict damage upon.

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Originally Posted by Pelion

I cant really afford the time to go hunting around for links right now since im in the middle of exams but heres one article

http://www.uruknet.info/?p=m23611&l=i&size=1&hd=0

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Also from that web site:

http://www.uruknet.info/?p=m23646&l=i&size=1&hd=0

Based on what's in there and your use of links from that site as some type of conclusive proof, I don't see sense in commenting further in this thread - we're just going to have to agree to disagree.

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Originally Posted by AvatarKava

Also from that web site:

http://www.uruknet.info/?p=m23646&l=i&size=1&hd=0

Based on what's in there and your use of links from that site as some type of conclusive proof, I don't see sense in commenting further in this thread - we're just going to have to agree to disagree.

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Bet you havnt read it.

http://www.ehrlesparty.com/images/Pa...can%20Flag.jpg

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Originally Posted by Pelion

Bet you havnt read it.

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Originally Posted by Pelion's Source

How Bush killed 100,000 American infants

Lying, racist, holocaust-ignoring Anglo-American Mainstream Media will simply NOT report the horrendous human cost of the Bush Wars that (so far) have been associated with 2.3 million excess deaths (avoidable deaths) and 1.8 million under-5 infant deaths (90% avoidable) in the Occupied Iraqi and Afghan Territories.

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LOL

SADDAM HUSSEIN IS STILL IN CONTROL. THE U.S. SOLDIERS ARE RUNNING AWAY. THE IRAQI ARMY IS CHASING THE AMERICANS AWAY ACROSS THE COUNTRYSIDE.
- URUKNET, May 25, 2006


anyway, wow, i don't even know what to say. with the addition of pgil this argument is so bad my head hurts. i'm gonna go out on a limb and guess that nothing anyone says will change your mind, given how inapplicable your counter-arguments are.

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Originally Posted by Pelion

Bet you havnt read it.

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I wouldn't post if I hadn't. I don't like to construct arguments about topics I know nothing of, though that tactic is quite popular on the interweb.

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Originally Posted by pgil

They were the ruling force and were ousted, as opposed to the situation in Iraq where an outside nation has invaded, and the Iraqi people are simply attempting to defend their country from this outside invader.

Imagine if you will, that the US has in 10 years been invaded by China, and the Chinese go to the world community and claim that due to the corrupt, unstable leadership in the US that they were a threat to the safety of the Chinese and preemptive action was necessary to safeguard the chinese way of life. its not too far fetched given the US record of aggression towards certain countries and their possession of large stockpiles of weapons of mass destruction.
would you take up arms against the larger, better trained, and better equipped chinese army and do everything in your power to try to free your country from this evil invader?? I think you would. Would you take them on in a full frontal assault (where you would be slaughtered) or would you attempt to use guerilla tactics, which are really your only possible means of success?

the answers are quite clear, but since it is happening in Iraq they are insurgents, not freedom fighters.
aren't double standards fun.

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I have to stop reading these forums because fucktards like you make my eyes bleed.

1) The TERRORISTS are not "defending" their country against an invading army. That would ONLY be true if the majority of the Iraqi people were involved in attacks on our troops. Unfortunately for you and your ridiculous arguments, that is not the case. The vast majority of Iraqi's are glad that we took out Saddam and gave them their country back. It's unfortunate that NONE of the positive stories coming out of Iraq are reported because it doesn't fit into the agenda of those reporting the war. "If it burns, it leads" is their mantra and they are sticking to that.

2) Your equally ridiculous argument about China invading the US is even less valid. If the US goverment was gassing its own citizens, raping women in designated "rape rooms" and abducting citizens in the middle of the night in order to execute them, then I would be THRILLED that China, or ANYONE for that matter, would come in and stop them. Since that's not happening, shut up.

3) And "double standards" aren't nearly as fun as blind stupidity. Fortunately, there are no double standards, just lame attempts by someone who hates this country to villify its military, its people, its commander in chief, and its very ideals. The Founding Fathers did not strap explosives under their powdered wigs and go to the local livery and blow up everyone there: men, women, and children, none of whom were military combatants. Had they intentionally targeted civilians, then your argument would be valid but again, not even close.

Let me make this clear in case you might have not been able to glean this from the text: Everyone has a right to their opinions and to voice them. However, it's people like you (those with either dangerously ignorant or even more dangerously subversive agendas) that make me feel sorry for the kids who are going to have to live in what's left of this nation after you and your kind are finished with it. The day is coming where America will NOT be that great light on a hill and we won't be a wealthy nation that is envied around the world. We'll be just like everyone else...but that's what you want, isn't it?

Ill admit i didnt read through every article on that site before i posted it as a source. I have already said im in the middle of exams at the moment and I cant afford the time to go hunting for links, or to read through every article on a site I do find after a 5 second google search.

In any case, if you think that only 20 civilians have been deliberatly killed so far then I think you are very naive about the realities of war.
I have also mentioned a BBC report into the videod bombing of civilians by a US fighter bomber which was shown on brittish television.

You also have to look into the kinds of civilian deaths which, whilst not strictly deliberate, are easily avoidable. e.g. there have been huge numbers of reports (which I dont have time to look for right now but im sure are easily available) of coalition troops shooting unarmed civilians in cars at checkpoints because they might be terrorists.

You really dont have to do alot of digging around before you start to find this sort of thing for yourself.

Without weakening either sides POV I believe this all boils down to one fact: if you believe an Iraqi life is equal to an American life then you are outraged at what may have occured at Haditha.

It is true that all the facts are not in. But to jump to conclusions like "the marines were being shot at therefore its a justifiable action to kill two dozen civilians" is absurd. On the other side to automatically condemn these Marines is equally absurd, no doubt the local terrorist propaganda machine works just as well as some believe ours to.

Point blank - There is no logical reason to be there. Forget why we might have gone in, forget Saddam being a bad guy (there are thousands of em); actions like this real or exaggerated throw millions of young Arabs into the terrorist camp. This is a Realist argument, forget moral justifications, it is tactically stupid to stay in Iraq.

Nov 2.

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Originally Posted by Rondavu

What kind of people do you think join the military? People who like to kill people. Does this surprise anyone?

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Come on Rondavu, I thought you had a little more class than that. I lose a lot of respect for people who say this kind of shit.

I joined a life saving service but I know why most other people join Army/Marines, and it's because they didn't have much else going on in their life and the service offered some opportunity. Sure, some join to be jarheads, but they're a minority.

As for the Marines involved in the killings, I hope they are prosecuted to the fullest, but please don't let the left wing media make it seem like the military is full of murderers and baby killers.

I realize that this is a heated debate, but if the name-calling continues, this thread will be locked.

Keep it civil.

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Originally Posted by BeatMeBad

You're an elitist retard.

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Originally Posted by BeatMeBad

I have to stop reading these forums because fucktards like you make my eyes bleed.

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If I've missed other infractions by anyone else in this thread, send me a PM and link me to them.