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I've heard this post mentioned a few times on this forum. I've been trying to use the forum search tool and haven't had a whole lot of luck with it. I did find a bunch of posts by Aokrongly that have been deleted to protect copyright - is this why I can't find much info on the 19 hands?
Again, sorry for posting this, but in my own defense I did spend about half hour digging through the forum / forum search and had very little luck :wink:
I believe those 19 hands are all pairs + AK, AQ, AJ, KQ, KJ and QJ. Anyway, dont pay much attention to it, it's not for the serious player. If you are totally green or a extremely bad player you can use this "strategy" to cut your losses. Otherwise I believe you should learn to play poker.
Look at AOK's post in this thread:
http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...oker-26429.htm
(I've put this in the sticky now too... we do get someone asking about it at least once a fortnight).
NoctoZ is right about the hands that constitute the 19; but is way off with the rest of it.
The 19 hands is a system to build on as you learn poker. It defines what hands you'll open with and how.
I've not used it myself, but many have with good results. Why? Because it's pretty sound advice.
You don't have to be "totally green" or a bad player to use it. The only reason NOT to use the 19 hands is if you have a better plan for opening yourself.
If you don't want to use AOK's starting hands then you can get a nice little sheet with Howard Lederer's videos which is more or less the same hands except Lederer places more emphasis on position and suitedness.
(He has the charts on his website http://www.secretsofholdem.com/)
Of course you shouldn't use this either, you should just go out and play winning poker by intuitively knowing what hands to open with and how.
What you can't? Pfft.
Basically you'd probably have a more refined game if you took an opening strategy like Lederer's. But it'll take longer to get to grips with ("okay, I'm in middle position with an unraised pot, can I play 44?).
AOK's system is really easy to get to grips with and most people here who've used it have reported good results at lower stakes.
aok's 19 hands post is now split and stickied here:
http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...oker-34753.htm
I could get nasty, but I'll refrain. Aok's strategy and advice which involves the now legendary 19 hands has been the most important thing for me in turning my game around. I'll admit that for the last few weeks things have been going southwards, but I believe that's because I'm drifting too far from this stystem.Quote:
Originally Posted by NoctoZ
Pay attention to it. It's a great way to learn and to understand all the fundamental concepts of the game. It'll teach you discipline and help you to learn to read, 'cause you'll have more time to obseve the other players.
And the concept behind it is quite sound, and is ultimately intended for heavy-duty multi-tabling. When you're playing 4 or more tables at once, you don't have time to hem and haw over suited single-gappers.
People who scoff at it are either arrogant or haven't bothered to read it and try it. It works.
NoctoZ's way of expressing his point was crass as hell, but it was a point nonetheless.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jiggus
To say that if you play more than four tables you don't have time to play more than 10% of hands is absurd. I play 8-9 tables and play 16-18%. Gabe plays 9 tables and more than 22% of hands. We both play SC 's, SG's, unsuited connectors, and suited trash in position all the time.
Jiggus, you will eventually run into a wall as you move up in stakes if you don't play more than 10% of hands. If villain can narrow down your range to 19 possible hands or less, that gives him a huge advantage over you.
The 19 hands system is terrific against unaware/unobservant players though, which is what makes it so popular.
so our vpip with :as: :ts: is 0 and our vpip with :qc: :jd: is 100 in an unraised pot?
I'm not sure why everyone is taking issue with AOK's post all of a sudden. At least the guy's trying to help out beginners. Maybe he would have been better off plastering their newbie posts with sarcasm and a terse 'fold preflop'.
I understand the point of issue - you're missing out on value, poker is situational, no hard and fast rules, you need to play more hands against the bad players at low stakes etc etc. All fair comment. However, I don't think AOK ever said his strategy was optimal. It's not intended to maximize your winnings. It's intended to get the newbie off to a winning start at the tables by keeping them out of marginal and potentially expensive situations. This should allow them to build a solid game of their own without bleeding a load of buyins as a learning tax.
As I said, of course it isn't optimal play, but I still think its a great post, as is most of AOK's stuff. I defy anyone to follow his advice closely and fail to win at the micros. When youve got a bunch of hands under your belt then sure, move onward and upward.
Anyway, that's my two cents (or pennies). Not intending to offend anyone here, but it's been on my mind since i read the other thread.
Ok, this is the part where I'm supposed to weigh in, right? I'm a fan of Renton and Gabe. I've never heard of noctoZ (but i'm sure he's a nice guy if you get to know him. i guess.)
Part of the reason I took this content off is because I didn't want to have to get into the minutia of it outside the book. However, Xianti decided to revive and sticky it, so here we go.
First, I'm not going to argue whether 19 hand is better or worse than other starting hand charts. Some people think that ANY starting hand chart is an abomonation and an afront to the poker gods. That limiting your options is stupid, weak and fishy. However, that's crazy. The fact that they have more complex starting hand requirements and that they keep them in their heads, based on years of experience and natural talent is great for them - but everyone has starting hand requirement. OR if they will truly play "any two" they are working on some astrol level that defies explanation.
The people who say "learn how to play poker" don't post that much in the beginners forum - which is another gripe I have with people who dismiss 19 hand strategy out of hand. Generally it's dismissed by people who don't post regularly in the beginner's forum. They are great players - or at least some of them are - but they are not able to help beginners as much as intermediate players.
I've played 19 hand at NL1000 (that's $5/$10 blinds for anyone who doesn't know what it means). It works there too. I've also played it at SOME NL25 tables where it DOESN'T work. The key isn't the Price to play. It's the table dynamics. You need 40% or higher preflop callers and 20x BB average pot size to get the most out of 19 hand.
HERE ARE THE DETAILS FOR PLAYING 19 HAND FOR THOSE INTERESTED. (I'm done bitching about poker elitists)
I'll say that again 19 hand works best at tables where 40% or more of the players are seeing the flop AND the average pot size is 20xBB or higher. So, if the big blind is .50, then the average pot size needs to be $10. PARTY POKER cheats when they declare pot sizes, the include any large bet that everyone folded to as part of the pot size. I'm talking about ACTUAL POT SIZE. BTW I wouldn't play it on Party Poker anyway. Find a good site to play where you feel comfortable. Just because Party is the biggest doesn't mean it's the best by a long shot. OK, so now you know the table requirements for 19 hand. If you are on a MIllion Dollar table and it has those stats, 19 hand will work fine. If you are on a .05 cent table and it Doesn't have those stats, then find another table.
NEXT, 19 hand is part of a larger system of how to approach the game of poker, including betting, reading others, creating opportunities, continuation bets, drawing people into hands, etc. That's why I'm trying to write a book.
However, beginning players have 3 major weaknesses.
1. They play too many hands
2. They stay in hands too long
3. They give away any chips they might have won plus more through a lack of awareness of how to approach the game with discipline.
19 hand is about fixing those problems first. THEN you can expand your hand selection, change your betting patterns either preflop or post flop, etc. But it's insane to try to integrate all of these things at the same time. You need a foundation FROM WHICH TO VARY. If you have no foundation then you're just bouncing around.
If someone else wants to propose another foundation, then give them a listen. So far I haven't seen one.
Why do I believe 19 hand will help most players?
1. I use it. Do I always use it? No. But it's my foundation. If I vary I'm varying from 19 hand based on ... Experience.
2. The EASIEST way to make money playing poker is to take advantage of loose, weak players. 19 hand does that. The 2nd rule of poker is to not give your winnings back. 19 hand does that.
3. I don't believe "learn to play poker" is appropriate advice to a beginner who asks how they can improve. The 2nd most common piece of advice is "read the forums". Well, if no one explains ways to approach the game on the forums then they aren't that useful. So, 19 hand is a solid system. I think if you hit NL100 (with a $1500 bankroll) and find that it's too limiting then you might find ways to vary. But most beginners play NL10 and NL25.
Ok, so here are more guidelines for 19 hand.
1. It is only for No Limit ring. Do not try this on Limit, on SitnGo's on MTTs, etc.
2. It is recommended for multi-tabling. If you want to sit down at one table, take notes on players and play a more complex game then feel free. When you only play 19 preflop hands it's boring as hell to play only 1 table. I recommend 3-5 tables. That should keep you busy.
Next, everyone likes to talk about their monster reads and how they won hands with 2nd best or a strong bluff, but here's something that I've observed. Most SMALL pots are taken by the strongest PLAYERS and most BIG pots are taken by the strongest HAND.
(someone is going to pull their hair out because everyone will remember that saying and they will think it's bullshit)
But here it is again :)
Most small pots are taken by strong players.
Most large pots are taken by strong hands.
Strong players know how to pick up pots that are going to be uncontested. Some even create situations that set up scenarios where they misrepresent their hand preflop to pick it up on the flop. For 19 hand that's a simple raise preflop followed by a continuation bet. For really clever players that means any number of things. HOWEVER, who takes the big pots? The best hands. When do you see the pots get big fast? When 2 people have strong hands and they are both going to contest the pot. The main other time pots get big is when some idiot wants to call huge bets with drawing hands hoping to get lucky (which happens all the time).
But, big pots are taken by strong hands. 19 hand is made to give you the best chance to have the strongest hand with the least cost.
Next, beginners have trouble laying down hands (like draws, 2nd pair, tp crappy kicker, etc.) 19 hand tries to keep you out of situations where that might happen.
If you want to try 19 hand then here it is for you. It does have table statistical requirements 40% seeing the flop and 20xBB average pot. If your site doesn't have that, then find a site that does.
Finally, my ultimate goal (for those that I respect like Renton and Gabe) is not to teach 19 hand poker. It is to teach people how to create THEIR OWN methods of playing poker based on their goals, conditions, etc. 19 hand is actually and EXAMPLE system in the book. Counterplay is an EXAMPLE system in the book. Neither is touted as the end all be all of how to play poker.
No one who uses 19 hand assumes that it's the end-all-be-all of poker. They are using it as a tool. The only people I see treat it this way are advanced players who think beginners are fools for even thinking it's something they should try. OBVIOUSLY as beginners grow they can and will expand what they do.
I'll try to address questions in this thread. I make no promises however. I will not get into flame wars over whether 19 hand is from the Devil. The people who know me know that I'm only trying to help people and that I have consistently tried to help beginners. So, if you have alternate strategies post them. If you think I'm an idiot go complain in a different thread. Leave this one for people who want to work on their game.
Thanks.
Amen.
For a new/beginning player, it's a great way to gain expereince, comfort and confidence. As it's done all of that for me.
Bah. He's in Sweden. How nice can he be? ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by aokrongly
Dude, I'm seeing roughly 18% of the flops that I play. I take back what I said, 'cause you're right, but I won't take back that the basic strategy is sound.Quote:
Originally Posted by Renton
Aokrongly,
What do you recommend people following your strategy do when their table doesn't meet the 40%+ see flop and 20xbb+ average pot requirements, and they are unable to find other table(s) that do?
So happy that this is stickified now. I have it bookmarked and have to reread it once in a while. I keep finding that after reading some of the other threads, i get to involved in trying to play to much with SC's, SG'cs and AXs, playing out of position, paying way to much and folding post flop. I need to stick to these hands and branch out once in a while IN POSITION, and not get so married to four flush and OESD's when I don't have the odds. And besides me, every beginner at one time or another has looked for, or asked for this threads location.
As someone who plays 19 hands myself, I'm curious about this too. Tight play was working wonderfully for me until I couldn't find any $25 tables with greater than 35% seeing the flop. Against tables full of tight players this strategy is not making me money.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lukie
I'm not going to claim to know all, or anything, but with my experience in the beginner tables i've found when they tighten up I just start C-betting after preflop raises with Ax, Kx even Jx once or twice and show when they fold to me. Once or twice and the table opens right up. I do this in S&G's as well. As soon as the table gets to 5 or4 handed everyone tightens right up and tries to float to ITM. Steal two in a row and watch what they call with. FWIW this is micro though not "real" poker. AoK, why not Party poker? I've just cleared the bonus there and am waiting for the beginner 45 days to end, then movin' on.
There you need to Lagg.Quote:
Originally Posted by flyingPenguin
I like 19 hands as a rock solid foundation to work off of as you improve. It's a great place to start, and not an unprofitable place to remain. I never used it myself to be honest. I started out tailoring my starting hand requirements towards who I'm in hand with.
Tables like that are the perfect opportunity for you to experiment with opening up your range, playing connectors, gappers. Axs, as well ramping up your aggression by c-betting more, raising/bluffing from the CO/Button, etc. It'll give you a feel for getting a slightly more aggressive game without nearly as much risk as trying it against experienced Laggs who can eat you for lunch. Try loosening up in late position only at first and don't get married to any top-pair weak kicker hands that you are playing for straight or flush value, and you should do fine.Quote:
Originally Posted by flyingPenguin
I don't know why everyone knocks 19 hands. It's not gonna lose you money. Considering 90% of online players do lose, I would say it's damn good advice for most.
It doesn't maximize profit to be sure, but most players simply aren't capable of employing a maximum profit/value strategy at this point in their poker game.
Agree completely.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rondavu
Its not all about the 19 hands... Its about how you play them post flop. I once heard in the SNG forum from a seasoned player SNG's is all about Preflop play and mastering that. For ring this foundation has helped me very much with my game. You will win more than you lose. For instance I cant give stats cause Iam not done with 10K hands. I can say this though the only times I have been destacked is SET VS. SET. I have grasped the concept that I didnt realize before... Poker is long term and not a short term get rich quick game. These 19 hands are all within most peoples stats they post on here. They may add some suited connectors and so forth....
But all and all AOK's 19 starting hands are no different than what we would normally play. If you are multitabling 4 + playing only 19 hands it will keep your game grounded. Its a sound strategy for beginners and people who are novice multitablers. Like me... Its so much easier and profitable for me to multitable and play 19 hands. Since blinds dont go up in Ring.... I can sit back and set hunt all day long. If I was not introduced to his stategy I would not have a foundation for my game. No foundation or standards = disaster for trying to reevaluate whats going on with your game. If you decided to take a pool of 10 K hands as a beginner, I would prefer to look at some basic hands like only 19 and adjust from there. As opposed to looking at hands like where i went wrong with 78 suited, and all the other hands people might play.
Truth is, I do not know how to play poker. I am learning, while Iam learning I plan on keeping it simple. Add more and more hands for me to learn how to play postflop, forth, and fifth street hinders me from learning the basics.
Here is a link to a starting hand chart I stumpled upon when I was looking for looking for a starting hand chart for 6max NL.
http://www.thepokerplumber.com/topics/6th5/6thgear.htm
This chart seems to be very similar to Aok's starting hand chart and a little bit tighter. This chart eliminates pocket 6s and below , KJ, and places some emphasis on suited hands. If I were to use this chart I would probably add KJs in late position. I can't understand why you would play QJs and not KJs. The removal of the small pocket pairs is not that big of a deal to me. Since you have to worry about set over set with these hands and for most people would probably be +EV to eliminate these hands. This and Aok hand chart should work great for beginners with the right table selection. In my opinion a player needs to learn to master these hands before they can learn to player poker and open up their range. I probably played 150k hands and I don't think I have these hands mastered yet.
There is also a 4th gear starting hand chart
http://www.thepokerplumber.com/topics/4th6/4thgear.htm
This can be used for 6 max and tight full ring tables. I don't adhere to this chart exacty but it doesn't seem to be a bad place to start. A beginner could get themselves in alot of trouble quickly with this starting chart by overvalueing tpgk. So my advice is until you master the 19 starting hands or 6th gear stick with tight is right.
Regarding finding appropriate tables - they're out there. Just start looking around. But if you want to play tighter tables then you can loosen up. Be agressive with a wider range of hands.
But there are 2 major considerations with table selection:
% of players who see the pot says how loose the table is preflop. This is both good and bad. People may stay around longer with 2nd best or draws, but they also may flop crazy straights and 2 pair. But, generally alot of preflop players is a good thing if you're playing Tight.
2nd, and more importantly is the average pot size. This is why I'm not a big fan of party. I hadn't played party in a long time so I played it last week. The average pot size on most of the tables is pretty weak. Which means you can't make any money when you hit! The only way you're going to get a big pot generally is when you get lucky and the other guy hits something fairly strong too. There are other sites where people play the same speculative hands but they play them much deeper into the betting. That's what you're looking for when you play 19 hand.
Go observe other sites. There's a long list of them on FTR and there are alot more that aren't on FTR.
gl
I believe there was some solid responses to this thread. I read most of the content Aokrongly has published on this site, and some stuff are really good while somethings aren't. But thats of course just my opinion, and I believe (obviously) I should be entitled to have one. Anyway I didn't post my response to OP to critize Aok. But it's his strategy so I guess he might take it so. I perfectly understand that his strategy is oversimplified in order to help beginners and that is all fine. I just think it's dangerous when people preach this system as a solid method to win, because IMHO it is not. It is a minimize-losses/break-even or possibly marginal-win strategy at best at all stakes above NL100. At lower stakes you may be able to extract alot using this strategy, though it still shouldn't be optimal. But I think a players who takes his game seriously and wants to win money (most ppl on this site I guess) should aim much higher than NL50 on Party... Of course if you arent rolled for it it's gonna take some time but thats another issue.
Also I think there is another factor to consider. Online poker is tightening up. Believe it or not, but it truely is. When I started playing online there was massive loads of fish everywhere. Sure, there is still plenty, but the overall game quality is starting to get higher, and a profitable player need to adjust accordingly to stay profitable. Im not saying there arent people who play dreadful, and most bonuswhoring nit's play a horrible postflop-game in spite of being tight. All Im saying is that hand selection and aggression is something most players eventually will become aware of. The fish is starting to get a clue. And while 19 starting hands certainly arent retarded in any sense it's still a very sub-optimal strategy. It might be good when you start out, but I think it's very important to leave this strategy behind you as soon as you have gathered a basic understanding of the game. The value of suitedness and more importantly, position, is something an aspiring player need to grasp in order to play a well-rounded preflop-game. And I dont think I need to mention that the most money won in texas holdem is won after the flop... Knowledge of basic hand selection will help you lose less or perhaps gain you a small edge over your opponents. An oversimplified 19 hand strategy will at best only get you so far.
Aokrongly,
What sites would you reccomend trying the 19 hands if not on Party.
JB25163,
Aok's "nit poker" works the best on Boss Network (Fortune, Sportingbet), this is good fishing grounds for utilizing 19 hands strategy.
You have 40-60% flops seen ratio and lots of players calling turn PSB's with medium/weak draws. Crazy variance.
[wow I flopped tptk in 7way pot and it held up! ;) ]
I know folks have been nice enough to give you the link to the sticky already. I wanted to point out that we also have this in the Beginner's Guide section on the html side of the site. Here is the link: http://www.flopturnriver.com/Texas-H...ing-Hands.htmlQuote:
Originally Posted by Scrimmage
Pacificpoker.com has good looking stats on their nl ring all the way from NL10 to NL200. I don't think they have multi-tabling, but with those stats i would just camp at a higher buyin table than i would multi-table at.
I'm looking at NL200 at 60% preflop and $56 average pot. The lower buyins are even juicier. The NL1000 doesn't look horrible. Tighter but big pot sizes.
I agree on all accountsQuote:
Originally Posted by NoctoZ
I will say though, that when I was first starting out back in the day, the 19 starting hand strategy would have really helped me. Like folding KJo preflop to a raise was unheard of for me...
I don't hate the 19 hands. It's a solid foundation for a newbie to start and it should be treated as exactly that.
But Lederer's starting hand chart is far superior IMO mainly because it incorporates position and the sooner a beginner learns the value of position the better. It also exposes the player to a larger range of situations and you're better adapted to take on tougher opposition than if you started playing 19 hands
I don't like the way people say that the only alternative to 19 hands is LAgg. Jack, I'd love to have a good long session against you playing 50% of hands and me playing my SLAgg 20%. I'm pretty sure I'd win :)
(my tactics *seem* to be successful on almost all types of 10-handed tables, as I don't have to adjust that much in either direction to tighten or loosen up depending on table texture. I don't mind being on a table with 25%VP; I don't mind 50%. It's all good :))
I think Noctoz hit the nail right on the head. You should reread his post. Since I'm relatively new, I don't know how it was before, but mere 10NL is already pretty tight. It's like everyone has read a book and is trying to stick to that advice, hoping to get rich by mindlessly repeating what the book told them to do. They can't play poker, all they do is camp for the nuts. I'm not making this up, I can see their reasoning from what they say in the chat sometimes.Quote:
Originally Posted by biondino
And I think the 19 hands strategy is a way to protect yourself from losing too much while you learn how the game really works.. not a strategy to make a profit. Atleast you can't run at a high ptBB/100 with it methinks.
Ehm, I play 30 VP$IP/10-15 PFR at 6max, not full.. and my tactics seem to be largely succesful too. I run at 20 ptBB/100 on a bad day. (a bad day card-wise; if I'm tilting or overconfident I'll run negative) If the cards are normal to good, I seem to run at 30-50 ptBB/100. And my results are showing more and more consistency, I'm not basing this on a few days or anything. In two days it's gonna my "2 months at poker" anniversary lol.Quote:
Jack, I'd love to have a good long session against you playing 50% of hands and me playing my SLAgg 20%. I'm pretty sure I'd win :)
(my tactics *seem* to be successful on almost all types of 10-handed tables, as I don't have to adjust that much in either direction to tighten or loosen up depending on table texture. I don't mind being on a table with 25%VP; I don't mind 50%. It's all good :))
And I'm not saying I'm that great at poker here, I just found a good way to beat the nutcamping 10NL at unibet. When I get rolled for 20NL, I hope to find a good approach there too, which will be different from 10NL - it's a lot more aggressive there and people call you down more - but I think I can do it if I'm rolled for it. I'm at $295 now, but I think I'll go for $350-$400 before I move up.
If I were to play 10max, I'd ofcourse play tighter than 30/15.
Who the hell would need to look up a strategy to jump into a NL100+ game?! You should have a game of your own by the time you get there. 19 hands is a foundation to start off your 5/10/25NL game while you learn patience, discipline and the basics of postflop play. Once you start to pick up some postflop skill, you can go back and open up a little preflop and not self-destruct in the close descisions you find yourself in later in the hand.Quote:
Originally Posted by NoctoZ
duh. And then you can learn while you are winning/breaking even instead of while you are losing.Quote:
Originally Posted by NoctoZ
"10NL is already pretty tight"
Mate, it is REALLY time you left unibet. You just cant say things like this and retain any credibility :)
Hehe.. but it's 100% true man. Go play there if you don't believe me :)Quote:
Originally Posted by biondino
Just now: AQs, raise 5BB, all folds. Couple hands later, KTs, raise 6BB, all folds (nice pot steal) Five hands later, AA raise 4BB, all folds. One hand later, 9Ts. I limp, a raise, a call, I float (call) it. I win $7 there (hit my flush vs TP and two pair). It's common to have streaks where I make more on my Lagg/floating than on "good hands"..
And why would I leave.. I've found a playstyle that works great there :D I hope I can reach $350 and go to 20NL tomorrow though, kinda sick of 10NL ($45 to go!)
Ok totally irrelevant.. well kinda.. but I'm just a bit happy lol. Or I want to back up my claims with results (about Lagg working at lower limits and all that - because some people still seem skeptical about that). Nice run today. Played about 4 hours on 10NL, made $80 (that's about 80ptBB/100, new "session record") and the BR is now at $360, so I guess I'm ready for 20NL.. or should I wait for $400 to be really "properly rolled"? Hmm..
Thx for listening.
I thought you already were playing at $20NL?Quote:
Originally Posted by jackvance
A 4 hour session running at 80ptbb/100 doesnt mean anything statistically.
In your thread where you talked about LAGG play at micro limits:
http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...ic.php?t=32574
Nobody said a good lagg would lose money at the micro limits [renton said if sammy farha played the way he does at higher stakes, he would lose, but he wouldnt play the same way], just that generally speaking a solid TAG game is going to be more profitable at these games. Most of the moves that make lagg play profitable require folding equity that you just dont get at the micro limits. If you are a very good hand reader and can make the right laydowns with you loose play then it will be profitable, but to be successful at these levels a solid tag game should do just as well and probably better without putting as much money at risk.
I moved back down to 10NL because I wanted to be properly rolled for 20NL first. The play there is too high variance for a tighter BR.Quote:
Originally Posted by andy-akb
That's the main point. This is changing. 10NL at unibet has a lot of folding equity on most tables, believe it or not. That's why I started playing Lagg. If they were as loose as you guys say the lower limits "should be" (and probably are at some sites? - although the general consensus seems to be that it's changing everywhere) then I'd be playing much tighter.Quote:
Most of the moves that make lagg play profitable require folding equity that you just dont get at the micro limits.
I'm really advocating a more liberal approach to the whole "tight is right" stigma. If you feed this advice to new players, and they end up at tighter tables, they're just going to get frustrated because it's not working like it should.
Playing tight amongst tight players is not the highest EV strategy.Quote:
If you are a very good hand reader and can make the right laydowns with you loose play then it will be profitable, but to be successful at these levels a solid tag game should do just as well and probably better without putting as much money at risk.
If the players are as tight as you say then a looser approach wouldnt be bad, I just find it hard to believe that the players at $10nl are as tight as you say. Having never played at unibet though, I really cant say. What are your VPIP/PFR/AF stats?Quote:
Originally Posted by jackvance
I vary between 30/10 and 30/15. The tables are all pretty passive though. The 10 PFR is at the looser ones, the 15 PFR at the tighter ones.
Well, this IS the Beginner Forum. I used Aok's strategy to get up and going. Now, when I want more "advanced" ideas and strategies, I go to the NLHE Strategy forum.Quote:
Originally Posted by NoctoZ
Pelion and KingLizard, did you really read my post? I haven't argued against the 19 hand strategy being a solid strategy for a true beginner. Yes, it might be a good way to minimize losses or pehaps even win a little at the lowest stakes til' you gained some confidence in your game. I just pointed out that it's a sub-optimal strategy and that you need to leave it behind at some point. I also believe that is wast most of you think as well, the problem being that some people preaches it as a solid, winning system wich IMO it is not. If you think different, I respect that and wont try to convince you otherwise. All my thoughts on this subject is pretty much summarized in my previous post.
While I agree with pretty much everything you said Noctoz, on Aok's behalf, it seems he has caught up to this and recently changed the way he gives his advice accordingly. I get the feeling he is less on about the "this is the one true way" thing - which indeed annoyed me too in the past, but as a solid "protective" way for beginners I appreciate his advice and even support it. In the proper context, imo Aok's advice is often very good.
er....yupQuote:
Originally Posted by NoctoZ
er...no . Its a way to win a decent 6+BB/100 once you develop the most basic of postflop skills.Quote:
Originally Posted by NoctoZ
yup yup its definatly sub optimal. But you arent giving it nearly enough credit yet. I totally agree with you that you have to move away from it to maximise your profits even at the lowest limits. Where we dissagree is that you seem to think it is a way to "minimise losses " (see I did read your post) when actually it will net you a decent winrate at the low limits as soon as you master some very basic concepts like pot odds for drawing / not putting a stack on TPTK etc.Quote:
Originally Posted by NoctoZ
Jackvance; Im sure Aok has thought about this and taken into consideration other peoples opinions, and this is all fine. I also agree that the advice he gives can be pretty solid. If he has changed his way of expressing his opinions thats even better. Beginners need to understand that not many things are clear-cut in poker, and that a "cookbook-approach" wont get you far. They need to understand that poker, especially NL Holdem is a very situational game. If Aok explains this accordingly, while still providing easy-to-understand, valuabe advice, thats great. It's not just a matter of what you say - It's how you say it.
Pelion; Actually I think we pretty much agree with eachother. Right now I believe we are just marking words... I actually stated that it's possible to extract a lot at the lowest stakes! But still, I believe a decent player can make much much much more with a different mindset. It's just that I see pretty decent players here at FTR who seems to got "stuck" with this strategy. They see that it works and are happy with it, seemingly not interested in moving past the 19 starting hands (once again, it works, doesn't it?). My opinions is that this forum is about helping eachother and I believe my input as well as other peoples on this subject could help some beginners who have begin to lear the game using this strategy. They actually might became pretty good players already, but their somewhat rigid mindset (a common thing amongst "advanced" beginners) stops them from venture past this strategy. Just my 2 cents...
Agreed, position is everything for experienced players. However, it can get beginners in trouble when they go about trying to use it the wrong way.Quote:
Originally Posted by salsa4ever
That raises an important point for me. How important is position at the 5NL and 10 NL tables, with the way these people play their own hands instead of the board and others? When should position then, be considered after the 19 hands strategy is understood and used effectively? Is it more about learning it for higher stakes or will it be much more +EV to learn as soon as you can grasp. I only ask because I have branched out to learn and try to understand and use position more pre and post flop, with a few different hands, but is it as important now or at a higher stake?
It's important at all stakes the same. For me, I simply NOTICED it in my game how much of an advantage it was to have position. I played heavily with position at 10NL and I play heavily with position on 20NL now. Not because people on FTR told me that I should do that, but I just learned this through experience..
I decided that rather than start another bitch-fight with AOK i would just offer my actual objective criticism and avoid my usual insults, etc. Here it is:
This is fine.Quote:
The 19 starting hands are
All poket pairs (that's 13)
AK
AQ
AJ
KQ
QJ
KJ
True.Quote:
Here's how you play them. (BTW, this thread will be full of alot of people talking about alot of things. That's great. I could talk about alot of things too. But the fact is newbie players need someplace to start that's going to keep them in the game and out of trouble. Texture, Color, Feel, The FLOW OF THE GAME, etc. are all advanced topics. Be sure to fire away.) Play the 19 hands on NL ring games below below NL $200 and you'll at least be playing live cards and win when you hit the flop more often than not.
I'm ok with this other than the 3-5x part. You typically want to open-raise the same amount every time you raise. This will prevent your opponents from getting a read on you. Now, most opponents you will be playing at low stakes are too retarded to notice this, but this is a good practice to start now for the future. The main reasoning behind this is that you don't "announce your hand" with your raises.Quote:
Here's how you play them AA, KK, QQ, JJ and AK raise preflop 3-5xBB. If the pot is raised before it gets to you then reraise with AA, and probably KK. If you get reraised back then Push the AA. KK is a toss up, do what you want. Call a raise with the rest. If you end up in the middle of a raise/reraise between to players, just get out of the way without AA - or if you think your KK is good push and hope one of them doesn't hit their A high.
I really really disagree with this. AQ is only dominated by 4 hands and dominates alot more hands that your opponents will be raising with. Call with AQ to a SINGLE raise preflop. Fold if there are 2 raises or someone behind you re-raises.Quote:
AQ, IF NO ONE HAS RAISE BEFORE YOU then RAISE. If someone Does RAISE BEFORE YOU then FOLD. You heard me right. AQ is a raising hand preflop into an unraised pot but it's an autofold into a raised preflop pot.
Never open-limp, ever. I repeat, ever. Depending on your position and how crazy your table is, raise or fold when it is folded to you or there is only one limper. Call or fold if there are multiple limpers.Quote:
AJ, KQ, QJ, call preflop if it's unraised. FOLD preflop if it's raised.
Ignore the 4xBB rule. Once you have been studying the game for a while you will eventually understand the math behind things such as implied odds, for now i'll simplify it. When calling a raise with 22-TT, use this general rule - does the opponent have 10x as much money as his bet. In other words if you need to call a $2 raise in 25nl, does the raiser have more than $20 left? If he does, call. If he doesn't, fold. This is to ensure that you make enough money when your 66 stacks AA to make up for all the times you miss the flop and fold.Quote:
POCKET PAIRS call raises preflop up to 4xBB Fold to bigger raises. HOWEVER, look at the raiser (and other callers stacks) if they don't have any money then just fold. You want them to have money so IF YOU HIT A SET you will get paid off. If you don't hit a set then be prepared to fold very quickly. If you have an overpair to the board then play it carefully.
This is flat wrong. Sorry I can't say this one any nicer. Position and pot odds are everything, never forget that. It doesn't matter what stakes you are playing. FTR has very good essays on both subjects, read them and post any questions about them.Quote:
AT is an auto fold, KT is an autofold. People will talk about connectors and suited whatevers, position, pot odds, blah blah blah. They don't mean much in very low NL ring games. In those games your cards generally win. But if you're going to push people off a hand then at least do it with a good Continuation Bet after raising preflop.
/me inserts foot in mouth while mumbling "be nice lambchop....BE NICE!!!!!!!"Quote:
Anyway. I'm a big fan of learning to play a well rounded game. But I've done that and made alot of money in nl ring, sng, and mtt's. Wanna know how many hands I play preflop?
19!!!
It'll keep you out of trouble. I will say I'm a master at playing those 19 hands, imho.
Don't yet the "year" line hold you back. The rate at which your game develops is proportional to how much time and effort you want to put into it and how big your goals are.Quote:
And I will say there's alot more to poker than what hands you start with. HOWEVER, the biggest problem most players have (not just beginning players, but MOST players) is that they have no idea what they should play preflop, how or why. Just master the 19 and at least explore various ways to play them, learn how others react, see how hands play out, etc. After you do that (which should take about a year playing 5000 hands per week) then start doing some other things.
Thanks for posting this lambchop. Question about this point... so in EP with low PPs (22-77) you open raise? This seems really aggressive to me, but my PFR% is at 7 and I wouldn't mind nudging it a little higher. Other hands I like to open limp with in EP are KQs and QJs, do you open raise or fold these in EP? FWIW, I play 50NL and try to find loose tables, so I'd guess I get a caller behind my EP raises 50-75% of the time.Quote:
Originally Posted by lambchopdc
KQs.. QJs.. fold from early position. Just fold them and save yourself some cash. Limp possibly from Mid position, but I probably wouldn't play except if folded to me in late position, in which case I raise. The only hands I limp are PPs and sometimes A/rag suited (40 limp, 60 fold) to mix it up a tad.Quote:
Originally Posted by zook
Thanks for the post lambchop. It looks to me like there isn't that much of a difference. Let's see...
AQ call a min raise. Judgement call works well either way as long as you know how to play it postflop.
Never open limp for beginners we'll have to disagree. It's not wrong if you have the experience to play it out. That means the balls to throw out continuation bets, the brains to get the most out of your set and the wisdom to know the difference (revised from Alcoholics Anonomous). Since most beginners zig when they should zag in these instances. I would say have brains balls and wisdom FIRST - and anyone who has brains, balls and wisdom plays a more sophisticated game than 19 hand.
I do have to revise I don't play 19 hand in mtt and sng. Also, there are plenty of times when I don't play 19 at all in ring. However, I did play it for hundreds of thousands of hands. It does work.
So do other tactics and game styles. The main thing about 19 hand - which has been said before and I'm sure will be said again - is that it's a place to start to learn how to play poker where you can get 10,000 hands under your belt without paying too high a poker tax. AFter 10,000 hands or so then ANYBODY will do whatever comes naturally to them.
"never open limp" though? For beginners?
AQ is certainly a judement call, but KT??? Let's bust out the Sklansly. KT, QT, AT are all group 6 hands, out of only 8 groups. Granted that low pairs 66 -22 are group 6, and 7 hands, but they are sooo easy to fold when they miss. The orig 19 hands are about making confident plays and staying out of 2nd best situations. Even with experience KT is a shaky hand. And if everyone follows the Never Open Limp rule + KT it can get pretty ugly.
However, keep an eye on this thread. Let me get my laptop online and I'll post something you'll find very interesting. It's a tease from Section 2 of the book. You'll like it.
This is an excerpt from the opening of section 2 of Performance Poker - No Limit! We've been having fun with 19 hand holdem - which I recommend to any beginners. There are slight differences on how others interpret it, but it's a good strategy for anyone who wants to start to develop the discipline and mentality of playing NL Ring. The following is just to help the advanced players (and people whom I have alot of respect for) understand that Performance Poker - No Limit! is not about how to play 19 hand poker. It uses 19 hand as the framework for learning the mentality of poker and then moves beyond it. So, here you go:
Section 2 - Why 19 Hand Hold-em Sucks
Now that I've convinced you to create a new game using the 19 hand holdem strategy let me tell you what's wrong with it. But more importantly, let me show you how to create alternative strategies to 19 hand holdem.
I'm assuming you actually put some work into your game so far using the 19 hand strategy. If you haven't then you need to commit to it for at least 10,000 hands. This will teach you the benefits and weaknesses of the 19 hand strategy. Here are some of them.
Benefits of 19 hand holdem stratgy.
1. It keeps beginning players out of trouble.
2. On tables with the right dynamics (40%+preflop callers and 20xBB average pot) it works really well to not only keep you out of trouble but maximize your winning hands while helping you see when someone has caught up with you.
3. It begins to teach the discipline of poker. That is to say, it starts to teach you how to think like a performance poker player. This includes the value of folding, knowing what you are going to play preflop and why you are going to play it, considering betting strategies as not only how to get money into the pot but also how to bet for information.
4. With the right table dynamics 19 hand holdem works.
5. As long as you pick your sites and tables deliberately you can play 19 hand holdem for years and years as a winning poker player.
Weakness of 19 hand holdem strategy.
1. As the level of competition increases 19 hand holdem becomes less profitable. Your competition makes plays and moves that either appear to be fishy or appear to be strong when that is not the case. On the lower, more fishy tables the dynamics considered in 19 hand holdem are accurate the vast majority of the time. As your competition increases in skill, however, those "rules" begin to break down.
2. As the level of competition increases players will start to "put you on hands" much more easily if you limit your play to 19 hands and your betting to the rules associated with 19 hand holdem. Now-a-days players use poker tracking software that creates a database of hand histories on you and other tools (both learned and techological) to get reads on your game faster and faster. So, while you might win at a certain level early, if you start seeing the same players over and over then you might find they are taking advantage of your tight playing style - especially postflop. You can see this if a player you commonly play against starts compulsively raising your continuation bets postflop or starts betting into you consistently after the flop just to see what you do.
3. 19 hand holdem is SLOW. As you played it you may have noticed that other players build the stack of chips in front of them more quickly than you generally do (at least other good players). They are playing a more varied game that gives them more risk but also more reward. Be sure to distinguish between the good players who are playing a varied and skilled game and the weak players who simply got lucky making stupid plays.
4. 19 hand holdem doesn't incorporate bluffs on either the turn or river. Basically if your continuation bet doesn't take the pot and you don't improve, bluffing is not recommended. 19 hand is about not giving back your winning, reducing your losses, and playing a disciplined, focused, consistent game.
So, what other types of games are there beyond weak fishy play and 19 hand play? As you've probably seen there's a wide range. We'll discuss some options. But the point of this section of the book is to introduce you to the skills needed to create your own game as your experience increases.
Noob's take here:
I played about 6 months on playmoney tables only to get a feel for the game. I got the point where I could make some basic reads on folks (especially people playing JJ ;) ), understood the sorts of steal attempts I'd see, etc. I'm still a noob, but I got to the point where I was mostly playing SnGs and would make the money most of the time on Stars $10k tables.
Switching to real money was a slap in the face. Serious variance, bad reads that cost me, etc. I picked up the 19 hands strategy as a way to tighten up as I realized "relatively tight" SnG play was foolhardy in ring games.
It's helped a lot. I've made stupid mistakes (hopefully never again) like losing a big % of my stack on TPTK, or continuing to stick with AA when there's evidence I'm beat, or deciding to call someone's AI bet because they're new to the table and "likely to be bluffing " (yes on play money, definitely not even at the $0.5/$0.10 tables on 'Stars).
For the first thousand hands with this strategy I caught myself saying "he's bluffing at the pot - someone raise him" on hands that turned out to be monsters, or wishing I'd played that AQ post-raise or KT once I saw the board and only realizing how much I'd have lost once the winner turned his cards over.
I'm not "winning," as I still make stupid mistakes (lost $8 doubling up a guy with a set of 3's to my AA this morning for instance), but I'm now wining enough that my buy-in's staying level as I work toward the bonus.
It seems like a strong way for beginners (or those coming from freeplay only) to get up to speed and learn without paying too much to do so. I'm starting to integrate playing weaker hands like KTs from the button so I can play the chances of hitting the flop hard + position, but I'm glad I started here.
It's a good default position to play from unless you've got reason to do otherwise. Or at least this noob thinks so. ;)
dz,
KT is still a crappy hand. Don't fall for it. Play 10,000 hands of 19 hand poker. Keep a journal. Make notes of how the hands went. Make notes about the hands you "wanted" to play and how they would have turned out. Make notes on players who impress you at the tables and how they play. Keep track of your game, your money, your emotions, your desires, you opponents, table statistics... Whatever comes to mind. That poker journal will be the foundation to creating a long-term winning game at whatever stakes you want to play.
But you need to start thinking of poker in 10,000 hand increments at this point. Beginners have very short vision. They think that the 1 hour session they just played means something. It doesn't. Start looking at poker 10,000 hands at a time. And keep a journal.
Good luck.
The longer I have been playing, the more I have been realizing that even 10k hands don't mean much.
You can run good (or bad) for 20-30k hands.
Good point Renton.
Aok, could you address the fact that you say that:
Quote:
Originally Posted by aok
I disagree.Quote:
Originally Posted by midas06
a couple months ago empire had a $200 7x reload and I was forced to play 25NL because there was no tables. Suited connectors and position is still just as important.
I recommend to limp your SCs and suited 1-gappers in CO/Button (you can open raise them if you want) and in earlier positions if 2 players have limped in front of you. It helps if you know when to aggressively raise your draws. But still profitable if you either hit or fold (call if you have close to the pot odds)
And I recommend against open limping. The best rule is if it isn't good enough to raise with, then fold it. The only exception is a pair 66-99 in early position or 22-77 in mid position.
Ofcourse they do great everywhere, but I think Aok says what he does because to complete beginners they only confuse for the moment being.
Exactly. This is a system to keep BEGINNERS OUT OF TROUBLE!! While I see the value in suited connectors and position, as well as the concept of raise/fold, the reason they are easier to take advantage of for experienced players at lower levels are because they have gained that experience! Beginners don't know how or when to aggressively bet their draws, so why not stay out of trouble until they gain some experience? You see all kinds of noobs think the pair they caught with their 56s is good on a 269 flop, and call it down just to lose to TT.
I may be wrong, but don't you want a big field (and therefore a big pot) when playing these, so that you get paid off? 19 hands is not geared toward playing big pots that you can make big mistakes in. It is about playing safe poker as you gain experience. Then as you learn, you open up, then you are ready for the next level, you learn, you open up, and repeat the process.
I don't play 19 hand myself, but it is just amazing that people want to pick holes in this concept for being to tight and not tricky enough. That is the point! People who are bad at poker and need to tighten up or who are just learning the game shouldn't start out being tricky anyway!! Being tricky comes with tens of thousands of hands under your belt.
19 hands is a foundation, and a foundation system only, or a place to go back to to learn fundamentals for low limit games. My gosh, let's let it be that, for crying out loud!!!
I have to agree with lambchopdc, AQ is not an autofold behind a preflop raise. Having position with this hand after the flop can be a great situation for beginners.Quote:
Originally Posted by lambchopdc
AQ plays like dogshit versus a tight opener's range.
That said, it's certainly not an insta-muck to a preflop raise. Depends on a lot of factors.
this thread should be renamed
The ballad of AQ Preflop
.. music starts..
well you gotta know boys
when you getta queen ace
that there's some disagreement
'bout a raise in your face
You can fold it, call it, push it all in
depends on who you talk to
and their par-tic-u-lar whim
song continues INFINIDUM.... It's the song that never stops...
sure...Quote:
Originally Posted by midas06
People will talk about connectors and suited whatevers, position, pot odds, blah blah blah. They don't mean much in very low NL ring games IF YOU'RE GOING TO PLAY 19 HAND STRATEGIES.
better?
If you're going to play some other strategy then position, suitedness, one-gapers, pot odds, making reads, taking notes on your opponents, disguising your hand, table image, betting for information, check/raise bluffs and about 100 other things all come into play.
Play how ever you want!! 19 hand is what it is.
Wa wa wa wa WAIT A MINUTE!!!
Are you telling me that the 19 starting hand strategy is just a good way for beginner's to get acclimated to playing NL and pretty much ensure that they at least won't lose money?
But that there is more to the game than simply the 19 hand method, it's just that this method lets a beginner get a lot of hands in so that they can start to see when these other methods would be profitable?
I usually get where you are going, but is this a sarcasm type post or a continuation of an old argument with Aok or others to affirm what you have said all along. It's tough to tell. I can't remember what side you were on. There seems to be no fence sitters on this one, and an excellent topic of conversation. And even some of the people I try to follow advice from are on both sides.Quote:
Originally Posted by chardrian
Sorry - I needed to add a dripping with sarcasm emoticon.
I have always taken AOK's guide as a sort of stopgap measure for beginners. It might not get you a winrate of a kazillion BBs/100 but it should stop you from losing any BBs/100.
Lastly - I have very little to add to the debate since I hardly ever play NL ring games.
What are you playing now Chardrian? Tourneys? Or you simply play less poker?
Aok,Quote:
Originally Posted by aokrongly
Are you trying to argue that by playing with your 19 hand strategy (essentially, playing fairly tight with very little to no adjusting for different table dynamics, etc), that position, suitedness, pot odds, reads, notes on other players, table image, disuising the strength of your hand, etc., all of a sudden don't matter?
He's saying that for someone new to poker, this strategy is a non-losing one. I'd also guess he's saying that these more advanced topics you're bringing up, while important, will cause a noob more trouble than they're worth.Quote:
Are you trying to argue that by playing with your 19 hand strategy (essentially, playing fairly tight with very little to no adjusting for different table dynamics, etc), that position, suitedness, pot odds, reads, notes on other players, table image, disuising the strength of your hand, etc., all of a sudden don't matter?
I'm saying there are libraries of books that try to teach beginners everything about everything all at the same time. What are the most common questions for new members. What do I do? How do I play this or that? Where do I start?
I'm saying you start by learning how to fold. It's the #1 skill in poker. 19 hand makes you do that.
I'm saying next you learn what to play and why. You come up with a preflop plan that a beginner can understand and follow. 19 hands is that plan.
And most importantly, it's a plan that a beginner can Understand and Follow.
It's not book, it's a quick guide. It's not an atlas, it's a pocket map.
I'm saying that working from a solid, tight base gives a beginner some way to get an understanding and appreciation for the things that happen at a real money table for longer than a few days on their initial buyin(s). I'm saying 19 hand does that.
I'm saying that once you have 10,000 hands under your belt then maybe you've seen enough that you can start to appreciate what people are even talking about when they say position, reads, table image, etc.
I'm saying if someone has a PLAN OF ACTION of their own on how to play nl ring then they won't care about 19 hand, but if they DON'T then 19 hand will save them a ton of frustration, failure, and money.
I'm saying all this and alot more. But most emphatically I'm saying that "it depends" may be an Ok answer sometimes. But the explanation of "it depends" is never ending sometimes and much argued.
If someone comes to FTR and they have been losing at ring play, and they are frustrated and confused and asking for help, then they should have an answer that accomplishes everything above and sets them up to learn the more complex and varied lessons of poker.
19 hand is my attempt. there are lots of ways to disagree. But it's my attempt.
And YES I'm saying when you play 19 handed all that stuff doesn't matter TO THE PERSON PLAYING IT. Because it's beyond their ability to try to juggle all that anyway. Otherwise they wouldn't care about 19 hand. And when they go beyond 19 hand they'll say, "hey what's the value of suited connectors" and you can tell them how and when to add that one trick their bag. But at least they have a bag at that point.
Make sense?
Things like position, reads, and pot odds aren't advanced concepts. They are fundamentals of poker. To the point where I can't imagine a player beating any game that isn't downright awful without grasping these concepts.Quote:
Originally Posted by dzeanah
I understand what you are trying to say. FWIW, I don't think your strategy is horrible for beginners in lower stakes games. I think that it could beat a lot of the real loose wild games. But starting hand selection is only a part of NLHE ring games (and I fully understand how not playing certain hands keeps beginners out of a world of hurt postflop), but the game cannot be properly taught to anyone in my opinion by just using a general, non-adapting preflop strategy.Quote:
Make sense?
If you stressed the importance of position, how to use it to your advantage, how to avoid playing out of position where you don't really know where you are at, the importance of agression, etc., I think your strategy would be more helpful to those just starting out.
seriously, if half of my friends had any kind of grasp of understanding of this, i'd have a lot more trouble taking their money on friday nights.
for all you fuckers, 19 hands isn't an end-all-be-all answer to ring play. it's for the folks with 50 bucks on stars or party who want it to last thru the weekend and maybe start something good. it's not necessarily perfect, but it's pretty damn good. after a dumb play with A9 or KJ i say to myself "19 hands, 19 hands. solid cards. 19 hands." or something like that, a self-imposed kick in the ass if you will.
sounds rediculous, i play more than 19 hands, but it helps me remember one of the most important aspects of poker: good hands early eliminate tough decisions later.
lol. (Juke please don't start a flame war.)
I do all that in my book. You can do it here, Lukie. Keep the lemmings from falling into the sea. Sounds like you're up to the challenge. You should start a thread.
Lukie's Adaptation of 19 hand holdem.